Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

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What do you expect with Zen 4?


  • Total voters
    330
  • Poll closed .

pakotlar

Senior member
Aug 22, 2003
731
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I know some people here think they won't use 230W PPT out of the gate. But why wouldn't they? They don't need to save it for 24/32 core CPUs. Whenever those show up they will be way more efficient regardless because of the lower frequency/voltage. Zen 4 was designed for Genoa, after all.
They absolutely will. The 142W PPT on AM4 was used on the top end parts; my 5950x is very hungry for more, relaxing PPT to 200W yields noticeable speedups in Cinebench.
 
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pakotlar

Senior member
Aug 22, 2003
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I am still disappointed with the lack of 24core. If at least, when it comes eventually, next year or so, replaced 16core at that pricepoint. But you just know they simply introduce it as another higher tier. I would be massively surprised if it wont play out that way.
Likewise. I think they’ll be surprised about how weak their sales are compared to Raptor Lake, which will offer more cores (but same threads) with better single threaded performance, and either on par or better MT. Hopefully that motivates them to put out a 24 core chip.
 

Timmah!

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2010
1,116
330
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Likewise. I think they’ll be surprised about how weak their sales are compared to Raptor Lake, which will offer more cores (but same threads) with better single threaded performance, and either on par or better MT. Hopefully that motivates them to put out a 24 core chip.
we shall see. Anyway i wanted to build new rig this year, not next or whenever they get a grip. And i am not that high on buying 1000 EUR CPU, only to replace it half year or a year later, because while they could release it right now already, why not double-dip with staggered release on people with more money than sense, right?
 

pakotlar

Senior member
Aug 22, 2003
731
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we shall see. Anyway i wanted to build new rig this year, not next or whenever they get a grip. And i am not that high on buying 1000 EUR CPU, only to replace it half year or a year later, because while they could release it right now already, why not double-dip with staggered release on people with more money than sense, right?
Yeah, that slow drip strategy sucks. Ill stick with the 5950x and see what comes after the 7950X.
 
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nicalandia

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2019
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Likewise. I think they’ll be surprised about how weak their sales are compared to Raptor Lake, which will offer more cores (but same threads) with better single threaded performance, and either on par or better MT. Hopefully that motivates them to put out a 24 core chip.
You are delusional if you think Raptor Lake will have better ST and MT than the 7950X. Leaks have shown no gaming performance gains(to be expected). Synthetic benchmarks are a Meh.. Remember how good Rocket Lake looked on Geekbench?


Release review showed how much of a waste of sand it was.. Raptor Lake will be a side grade to Alder Lake to most people.
 
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biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
16,822
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Likewise. I think they’ll be surprised about how weak their sales are compared to Raptor Lake, which will offer more cores (but same threads) with better single threaded performance, and either on par or better MT. Hopefully that motivates them to put out a 24 core chip.
I think they plan to use vcache models instead. Or maybe pricing? :D
 

Karnak

Senior member
Jan 5, 2017
379
725
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The only advantage RTL will have is when it comes to ST performance in applications. Besides that? Nope.

They'll have similar gaming performance (double L2 and the surprisingly good latency numbers according to the Genoa leak and you can see, what a main target for AMD was) while MT-perf and perf/watt will be way better with Zen4 - all of that without needing V-Cache. With the latter gaming performance will again improve significantly and so does perf/watt looking already at the 5800X3D.

They don't need lower pricing or something similar, because Zen4 will be better overall with and without V-Cache. And it looks like Zen4 will even launch like a month earlier.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
20,300
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Intel has been pushing 240-250W PL2 values for awhile. AMD may as well "catch up". It'll be trivial to dial back PPT numbers for anyone who doesn't want to bring the power. Or they can just run undersized coolers to constrain clocks, though that's a foolish way to do so.

Raptor Lake's ST scores are not impressive, so it will gain nothing on Zen4/Raphael in that department.
 
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Timmah!

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2010
1,116
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You are delusional if you think Raptor Lake will have better ST and MT than the 7950X. Leaks have shown no gaming performance gains(to be expected). Synthetic benchmarks are a Meh.. Remember how good Rocket Lake looked on Geekbench?


Release review showed how much of a waste of sand it was.. Raptor Lake will be a side grade to Alder Lake to most people.
It seems its gonna be more or less tie this time around both in ST and MT, and IMO Pakotlar´s point was, that under such condition, more people will side with Intel, as per usual.
But maybe v-cache will swing the pendulum into AMDs favor significantly.

Rocket Lake was indeed meh all around.
 

pakotlar

Senior member
Aug 22, 2003
731
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It seems its gonna be more or less tie this time around both in ST and MT, and IMO Pakotlar´s point was, that under such condition, more people will side with Intel, as per usual.
But maybe v-cache will swing the pendulum into AMDs favor significantly.

Rocket Lake was indeed meh all around.
I think 13900K will have better ST than 7950X but otherwise yeah that’s my point. A fair number of people will choose 13900K over 7950X because 1) its Intel, 24 is bigger than 16 (cores), 3) DDR4 is a lot cheaper than DDR5.

I hope thats the case because it will motivate AMD to actually grow consumer core count for the first time in now 3 generations. They’ve clearly taken their advantage over Intel and used it to justify stagnation and raising prices on the consumer side.
 

FangBLade

Member
Apr 13, 2022
131
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I think 13900K will have better ST than 7950X but otherwise yeah that’s my point. A fair number of people will choose 13900K over 7950X because 1) its Intel, 24 is bigger than 16 (cores), 3) DDR4 is a lot cheaper than DDR5.

I hope thats the case because it will motivate AMD to actually grow consumer core count for the first time in now 3 generations. They’ve clearly taken their advantage over Intel and used it to justify stagnation and raising prices on the consumer side.
ADL users will choose RPL yes, but what about new one? Why choose dead end platform? Yes ddr5 is more expensive, but it is a future, and AM5 platform will support future cpu-s too.
 
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mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
3,682
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You are delusional if you think Raptor Lake will have better ST and MT than the 7950X. Leaks have shown no gaming performance gains(to be expected). Synthetic benchmarks are a Meh.. Remember how good Rocket Lake looked on Geekbench?


Release review showed how much of a waste of sand it was.. Raptor Lake will be a side grade to Alder Lake to most people.

He is delusional because a leaked chinese test with pre final hardware/software doesn't show gains, really? The real reviews will show who is delusional and I'm sure it's you. It's logical that something is off and the test is flawed. 5.5 Ghz vs 4.9 Ghz and no gains, makes sense.....if it was GPU bottlenecked. Also DDR5-6400 vs 6400 is not representative when every official review is using DDR5-4400/4800 for ADL-S. Raptor Lake supports 5200/5600.
 
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CakeMonster

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2012
1,249
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I hope thats the case because it will motivate AMD to actually grow consumer core count for the first time in now 3 generations. They’ve clearly taken their advantage over Intel and used it to justify stagnation and raising prices on the consumer side.
They're both on 32t, and its very likely that AMD is looking to expand their core count with their next generation anyway. I'm not sure why so many people are thinking that AMD staying on 32t with Z4 is a horrible mistake or betrayal.

IMO, its more looking like AMD needs to prove themselves on ST performance this generation, which is relevant for a whole lot more people, and hopefully they will at least do that with the X3D parts.
 

Markfw

CPU Moderator, VC&G Moderator, Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 16, 2002
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They're both on 32t, and its very likely that AMD is looking to expand their core count with their next generation anyway. I'm not sure why so many people are thinking that AMD staying on 32t with Z4 is a horrible mistake or betrayal.

IMO, its more looking like AMD needs to prove themselves on ST performance this generation, which is relevant for a whole lot more people, and hopefully they will at least do that with the X3D parts.
No only are they both 32t, but the RPL has 16 very weak cores. I don;t think they are even to 8 of the P-cores.

But we will see when both are out and benchmarks happen.
 
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pakotlar

Senior member
Aug 22, 2003
731
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No only are they both 32t, but the RPL has 16 very weak cores. I don;t think they are even to 8 of the P-cores.

But we will see when both are out and benchmarks happen.
Hyperthread lift is far smaller than skylake cores. And for marketing 24 cores > 16
 

nicalandia

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2019
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Its more looking like AMD needs to prove themselves on ST performance this generation, which is relevant for a whole lot more people, and hopefully they will at least do that with the X3D parts.
ST will go to the Zen4 no doubt about it. And X3D parts will have either lower or same ST performance than the non-X3D part. Gaming ST is something entirely different...
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
16,822
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I think 13900K will have better ST than 7950X but otherwise yeah that’s my point. A fair number of people will choose 13900K over 7950X because 1) its Intel, 24 is bigger than 16 (cores), 3) DDR4 is a lot cheaper than DDR5.

I hope thats the case because it will motivate AMD to actually grow consumer core count for the first time in now 3 generations. They’ve clearly taken their advantage over Intel and used it to justify stagnation and raising prices on the consumer side.
But if you choose DDR4 with 13900k, won't you loose the performance that will bring you in front of the 7950X?

And sure DDR5 is more expensive than DDR4 and if you have a system with 64GB or more I can understand the concern, but the total cost of a 32GB system is not going be significantly different choosing DDR5 or DDR4.
 
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nicalandia

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2019
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But if you choose DDR4 with 13900k, won't you loose the performance that will bring you in front of the 7950X?
Forget about the 7950X. The 5800X3D will have no issue beating a Raptor Lake castrated with DDR4. 12900K/S was on even grounds with DDR5 6400 Mhz
 
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biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
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Forget about the 7950X. The 5800X3D will have no issue beating a Raptor Lake castrated with DDR4. 12900K/S was on even grounds with DDR5 6400 Mhz
In gaming scenarios sure (which is what matters to me), but how does memory speed affects MT performance? I guess it boils down to what kind of work you do.
 
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jamescox

Senior member
Nov 11, 2009
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I think 13900K will have better ST than 7950X but otherwise yeah that’s my point. A fair number of people will choose 13900K over 7950X because 1) its Intel, 24 is bigger than 16 (cores), 3) DDR4 is a lot cheaper than DDR5.

I hope thats the case because it will motivate AMD to actually grow consumer core count for the first time in now 3 generations. They’ve clearly taken their advantage over Intel and used it to justify stagnation and raising prices on the consumer side.
That is ridiculous. Zen 4 isn’t a new family, so we shouldn’t be expecting radical changes. The performance from SMT with much larger L2 and other improvements may be quite large and the MT clock speed is significantly improved. This should result in massive improvements for applications that can take advantage of 32 threads. Saying that this is “stagnation” is absolutely ridiculous. The IPC alone, without the clock speed bump, is likely more than we got from most intel generation during the monopoly.

32 threads is already niche for the consumer market anyway. Given the MT improvements + DDR5 to keep it all fed, I don’t think there is much of a real market for actual 24-core / 48-thread parts. I use a 24-core Epyc F-series part at work, and it is still often stuck at ~2% utilization (1/48) due to single thread portions of the code. I hope they have a new Threadripper level part, but the Threadripper level enthusiast market is tiny. It is good press among enthusiast, but not really much else. I suspect most of their Threadripper sales were OEM machines purchased by or for professionals as workstations.
 

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