Special report: China's debt pileup raises risk of hard landing

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Those of you who think China is going to swallow the world should read this a few dozen times till you understand it.

And for reference: Their $600 billion in building would be about the same as the US spending $1.6 trillion due to the differences in the sizes of our economy.

It is just a matter of time till China follows the course Japan took in the 80s-90s and enters their own 'lost decade.'

http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-chinas-debt-pileup-raises-risk-hard-002026104.html
CHENGDU/WUHAN, China (Reuters) - When China announced a nearly $600 billion package to ward off the 2008 global financial crisis, city planners across the country happily embarked on a frenzy of infrastructure projects, some of them of arguable need.

Chengdu, the capital of southwestern Sichuan province, answered the call for stimulus action with a bold plan for a railway hub modeled after Waterloo railway station in London.
Except London's Waterloo was not ambitious enough.

"I was shocked when I finally got to visit Waterloo. It was so small," said Chen Jun, a director at Chengdu Communications Investment Group, which built the new Chinese terminal. "I realized we would probably need a station a few times bigger to meet the demands of our city."

In a manner typical of many infrastructure projects in China, Chengdu more than doubled the size of its planned transport hub, borrowed 3 billion yuan ($473 million) from a state bank to finance it, then set out on a blistering construction timeline that saw the finishing touches put on the project two years later.

But instead of getting the accolades they expected for helping to stimulate the economy, Chengdu Communications and many of China's 10,000 local government financing vehicles (LGFV) have now come under a harsh spotlight for the grim side-effects of the construction binge.

China's local governments have piled up a mountain of bad debt, some of it to finance bridges to nowhere and other white elephant projects, which now threatens to constrict growth at a time when the global economy is sputtering. It is adding to other systemic risks in China, including a sharp downturn in the property market and a rapid rise in problematic loans.

Local governments had amassed 10.7 trillion yuan in debt at the end of 2010. The government expects 2.5 to 3 trillion yuan of that will turn sour, while Standard and Chartered reckons as much as 8 to 9 trillion yuan will not be repaid -- or about $1.2 trillion to $1.4 trillion.

In other words, the potential debt defaults could be even larger than the $700 billion U.S. bail-out programme during the 2008 crisis.

Reuters reported in mid-year the government was working on a relief plan for local governments, including allowing them to tap the municipal bond market for the first time as an alternative to bank loans, which are becoming harder to get.

The risks of default are rising. Nearly 85 percent of the local government finance vehicle loans in northeast Liaoning province, for instance, missed debt service payments in 2010, an audit report posted on the Liaoning Daily website said.

But in visits and interviews at city-run vehicles around China, officials appeared unworried. They say they were only following Beijing's directives to keep growth on track, and the central government would surely step in to bail them out.

Perhaps their complacency is justified. Beijing, which holds more than $3 trillion in foreign exchange reserves, certainly has the resources to rescue them, and has done so in the past -- it set up asset management companies to help China's top banks clean up mountains of bad loans in the late 1990s.

But China is also vulnerable to a global downturn, and would need every piece of its economy performing well to avoid a serious slump. The infrastructure boom insulated the economy from a collapse in exports in 2008. Beijing has less firepower now. Inflation is uncomfortably high, and dumping more money into the economy would only make things worse.

Barclays Capital has predicted a global recession would trigger a "hard landing" in China, with gross domestic product sinking well below the 8 percent mark seen as the minimum for assuring enough job creation to keep up with urban migration.

A severe economic slump would depress land sales, a vital source of funding for local governments, and make their debt load even more precarious.

BUBBLE-SOME PROPERTY
In Chengdu, Chen leans back on a sofa in his office, smiles and readily concedes Chengdu will have big problems covering the bills for its version of the Waterloo train station.
"We're still unable to reflect on our accounts the problems that may arise from our investments into Chengdu's railroads," Chen said. "What happens next is that we may face some trouble repaying our loans when many of them come due."

Chengdu Communications had liabilities of 18.9 billion yuan at the end of 2010 against current assets valued at 11.7 billion yuan.

Chen is not unduly concerned. He thinks he has a solution, one local governments across China have also grasped: Real estate. Chen, the chairman of six other state companies in the city, intends to build huge residential and commercial projects around stations such as Waterloo -- with borrowed money, of course.

The problem with that idea is that Beijing has been taking increasingly urgent steps to halt a speculative property boom and has told state banks to cut lending. Domestic investment -- much of it in property and infrastructure development -- accounted for 70 percent of China's gross domestic product last year, a far bigger share than in developed economies.

According to the McKinsey Global Institute, the proportion of China's total debt to gross domestic product was 159 percent at the end of 2008, before it began the massive stimulus programme that has racked up piles of local government debt.

Local governments have long had to tap other sources of income to supplement their meager share of the country's taxes. Beijing controls the bulk of tax revenues to prevent local officials from spending wastefully, and as a way of redistributing wealth between poor and rich provinces.
So they raise money by selling or taxing property or borrowing money. They are barred from borrowing directly from banks as government entities, however, hence the proliferation of their financing vehicles.

Local officials have a strong interest in keeping property prices high, since it is a key source of revenue. China Real Estate Information Corp., a Shanghai-based property information and consulting firm, estimates 40 percent of local government revenue came from land sales last year. Land also is often used as collateral backing the loans to their financing vehicles.
So throughout China, a building boom financed with massive bank borrowing is being securitized by land prices that local governments fervently hope will stay high, even as Beijing tries to tamp them down.

"The underlying problem here is that local governments have a lot of expenditure mandates for infrastructure, for social services, and they don't have enough regular revenue to cover it," says economist Arthur Kroeber.

BRIDGE FINANCING
Wuhan, capital of central Hubei province, is known as one of China's "four ovens", cities where summertime temperatures can soar to 40 degrees Celsius. Its strategic location at the intersection of the Yangtze and Han rivers has made it a major transportation hub and in the past three years the city has been feverishly building bridges, railways and expressways.

Wuhan Urban Construction Investment and Development Co., the vehicle set up to finance much of this infrastructure, had taken out 68.5 billion yuan in bank loans as of September 2010, a sum far in excess of its operating cash flow of 148 million yuan.

Perhaps for that reason, city officials found a novel if unpopular way to pay for the three new bridges they have built across the Yangtze, adding to the seven already spanning the world's third-longest river after the Amazon and Nile.

Besides the usual bridge tolls, Wuhan requires residents with cars to cross them at least 18 days a month, at 16 yuan a round trip.

The city of 9.8 million is expanding its subway system by adding another 215 km of track by 2017, with financing coming from big state-owned banks. Like other cities, Wuhan is counting on land sales and to secure the loans. Its land authority says land prices for high-end residential property have more than doubled since 2004 to 11,635 yuan per square meter today, despite a proliferation of housing developments.

For that reason, investment bank Credit Suisse called Wuhan one of China's "top 10 cities to avoid", warning in a report this year it would take eight years to sell off its existing housing stock, let alone the tens of thousands under construction.

Wuhan Urban Construction Investment and Development is the largest government financing vehicle in the city, employing 16,000 workers and sitting atop total assets of 120 billion yuan.
Despite its debt woes, Shen Zhizhong, a deputy director at the vehicle's media office, argued his firm should not be blamed for the profusion of red ink.

"What we do is all decided by the government. We don't have any project that belongs to us," Shen said, adding it was "unscientific" to ask his company how Wuhan plans to pay off its debt. "We are like a sportsman, not a coach or a referee. How can you ask a sportsman something only known by a coach or a referee?"

After building the roads, railways and bridges that China said were so desperately needed just a few years ago, the financing vehicles now resent being made scapegoats for the mounting risk in the financial system.

NO WORRIES
Chengdu and Wuhan officials insist their own books are fine; the problem lies elsewhere.
Zeng Mingyou, head of Chengdu's economic planning department, said despite a mounting debt load the city was controlling expenses and managing risks.

"What is important is that we have risk control measures in place," said "Compared to other cities, Chengdu has very good controls in place."

The Chengdu government began reining in its financing vehicles about three years ago after it discovered highways were being built across farmland where there was no traffic, Zeng said.
He also said the city had stopped using land as collateral for infrastructure loans. "We can't be taking all our land and using it to back up loans," Zeng said. "At some point we'll run out of land. This is why the focus now is on sustainable development."

In Wuhan, Xie Zuohuai, deputy director of the media office at the Wuhan branch of China's bank regulator, said his city, too, was exemplary when it comes to managing its debt.

"Wuhan is a model city in implementing Beijing's rules of regulating local government debt," he said in between lighting up cigarettes and stubbing them out in an overflowing ashtray. "I'm confident the central government will successfully manage risks," Xie added, echoing a widespread perception that Beijing will come to their rescue if need be.

Any wave of defaults big enough to destabilise major banks or crimp the government's finances could have consequences not only for China's economy, but for global growth and financial markets as well.

That risk appears to be pretty low for now, given the strength of bank balance sheets. The banking system has a bad loan coverage ratio at the end of 2010 of 218 percent to cover any losses, up from 80 percent at the end of 2008 and 155 percent at the end of 2009.

Despite that strengthened treasure chest, bank executives in Beijing, Wuhan and Chengdu say they have stopped lending to local governments entirely, unless their projects have some guarantee of profitability or are too big and costly to scrap.

"Right now, most banks have cut off new loans to local government financing firms," said a senior executive at a medium-sized bank in Beijing, who declined to be named because he was not authorised to speak on the matter.

The cities and financing vehicles themselves say credit is harder to come by.
"What the banks want to see now is a clear revenue stream," said Chen at Chengdu Communications. "Loans for big projects like highways and railroads are now harder to get."
For that reason, Chengdu Communications has become one the city's biggest operators of petrol stations, and Chen says he has so far faced no problems trying to get a bank to finance new ones.

SHADOW BANKING
Local officials need to keep their economies humming because they largely earn their Communist Party stripes with projects that boost employment and growth. With the loan spigots being turned off to rein in bubbly property prices, they face the prospect of housing projects grinding to a halt.
Enter the "shadow bankers". These are the underground lenders and trust companies who extend credit to people and companies that may not qualify for loans otherwise. They then slice and dice those loans into investment packages, akin to what American banks did with sub-prime mortgages for much of the past decade.

Credit Suisse last week described the burgeoning growth of informal lending as a "time bomb" that posed a bigger risk to the Chinese economy than even the local government debt pileup.
Credit Suisse estimated the size of China's informal lending at up to 4 trillion yuan, equivalent to around 8 percent of above-board bank lending. Interest rates on these loans runs as high as 70 percent and they are expanding at an annual rate of about 50 percent.

The shadow bankers have lent 208 billion yuan to real estate developers so far this year, nearly as much as formal bank lending of 211 billion yuan. The risks, analysts say, is that even healthy developers become vulnerable to a liquidity crisis, given the short tenor and high rates of these loans.

Formal banks have transferred some risky loans off their balance sheets to the shadow banking industry. As a result, Fitch Ratings has warned, lending has not slowed down as much as official data suggests -- and as Beijing would like.

Official banks have also been restructuring and reclassifying loans to dress up their books, analysts said. For example, they now get to classify local government borrowings as corporate loans, which allows them to set aside less in provisions and thus add to their quarterly earnings. According to Chinese media reports, banks plan to reclassify 2.8 trillion yuan worth of loans.

"Banks have to admit to some NPLs (non-performing loans), but they don't want to admit it because regulators are allowing them to restructure these loans," said Victor Shih, a professor at Northwestern University in Chicago who has written a book on China's financial system.

"This is unlike the late 1990s when the government forced the banks to admit to a huge amount of non-performing loans. This time round, the strategy is just to not admit to NPLs."

Such an arrangement appears to suit everyone. Beijing wants to keep the financial system from becoming destabilised, especially given the financial sector crises in the West. And local officials are keen to keep growth strong in the run-up to a critical Communist Party Congress next fall, when Party chief and President Hu Jintao is expected to hand power to younger leaders headed by the anointed next leader, Xi Jinping.

Whether they will also hand over a looming financial crisis to him as well remains to be seen.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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1. Sorry for the screwed up spacing, but that is a cut and paste issue and it is too long to fix perfectly.


2. China is really screwing itself long term. Debt to GDP at 159% and growing. Just a slight slow down and it will all crash down like a house of cards.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,365
34,889
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Seems reminiscent of the 1870s railroad boom economy in the US. Also shows that China is going to pull out all the stops to prevent the US from implementing policies that might negatively impact Chinese exports.
 

ohnoes

Senior member
Oct 11, 2007
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NPL's are a pretty big problem in both public & private sector in China. The only caveat is that the gov't is in a position to write off the loans, which a lot of people are betting on. Once the demographic pyramid turns, things are going to get pretty tough.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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ProJo you say this a lot but you're really oversimplifying by acting like Japan = China. The situations are very different. Japan had problems once it fully developed. China has hundreds of millions of people it can still raise out poverty. By the time that happens US industry will be debt if we keep ourselves exposed to that kind of competition.

And the reality is Japan is a very strong country although it has a smaller population and is fortunately a democracy so it's not that threatening. If China reaches that level of development it will dwarf all other economies in the world and under totalitarian rule.

If I were you I'd stop trying to prove that they are going to fail and start thinking of ways to address the issue.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Cliffs: China has a TON of debt that is going to crash their economy sooner or later.

Imagine California building a few new airports, a high speed train line and a few new freeways and then going broke and DC having to bail them out.

It would have a big negative effect on the economy.

And China is heading that way, but instead of just Cali it is much of the country.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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ProJo you say this a lot but you're really oversimplifying by acting like Japan = China. The situations are very different. Japan had problems once it fully developed. China has hundreds of millions of people it can still raise out poverty. By the time that happens US industry will be debt if we keep ourselves exposed to that kind of competition.

And the reality is Japan is a very strong country although it has a smaller population and is fortunately a democracy so it's not that threatening. If China reaches that level of development it will dwarf all other economies in the world and under totalitarian rule.

If I were you I'd stop trying to prove that they are going to fail and start thinking of ways to address the issue.
Evidence suggests that China may not get to full developed.

Jobs are already starting to slowly come back to the US as wages increase and China becomes less attractive.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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Evidence suggests that China may not get to full developed.

Jobs are already starting to slowly come back to the US as wages increase and China becomes less attractive.

Why wouldn't China fully develop? As long as it has poor cheap labor there will be factories there. The idea that jobs are coming back hasn't really been established yet. It might be true for some specific jobs like customer service where it helps to be a native speaker but even there from what I've seen is there just teaching Indians how to speak with an American accent.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Why wouldn't China fully develop? As long as it has poor cheap labor there will be factories there. The idea that jobs are coming back hasn't really been established yet. It might be true for some specific jobs like customer service where it helps to be a native speaker but even there from what I've seen is there just teaching Indians how to speak with an American accent.

There's recent evidence that real manufacturing jobs are starting to return for a number of different reasons. That said, it's too soon to tell if this is a large scale trend or a blip on the radar screen.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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There's recent evidence that real manufacturing jobs are starting to return for a number of different reasons. That said, it's too soon to tell if this is a large scale trend or a blip on the radar screen.

That makes me scratch my head.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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That said, it's too soon to tell if this is a large scale trend or a blip on the radar screen.

If you're talking about that recent article discussed here, I saw that too. But that's my point that it's too soon to make any conclusions from it.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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If you're talking about that recent article discussed here, I saw that too. But that's my point that it's too soon to make any conclusions from it.

Right, but you shouldn't be dismissing it out of hand either, or the OP's article in this thread. You should be prepared to re-evaluate your position on the necessity of trade protectionism if the circumstances warrant it.

Edit: btw there are several different articles on the subject of jobs returing over the past couple months.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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Right, but you shouldn't be dismissing it out of hand either, or the OP's article in this thread.
I don't think my take is that different from yours. I read the stories and concluded that it's premature to really learn that much from it. And in the end the real question is not how many jobs are we gaining compared to a few years ago (although any gain is a good sign) but how it compares to an environment where we had more barriers.

You should be prepared to re-evaluate your position on the necessity of trade protectionism if the circumstances warrant it.
I don't think I've indicated at all that I am not ready to re-evaluate the necessity of protectionism if new evidence comes up.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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www.facebook.com
For once, I agree with Prof John. "If goods don't cross borders, then armies will".

However, the source ignores the fact that the same thing is likely to happen to the U.S. Maybe the U.S. and China will kill each other?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,585
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1. Sorry for the screwed up spacing, but that is a cut and paste issue and it is too long to fix perfectly.


2. China is really screwing itself long term. Debt to GDP at 159% and growing. Just a slight slow down and it will all crash down like a house of cards.

the solution is that, rather than pirate the whole article, just copy one or two paragraphs to get us interested and let us click it if interesting.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
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That makes me scratch my head.

Why? Labor is a marginal input into most of these products, especially mass produced low cost items. Once you include transportation fuel/time/logistics, quality control issues, political risk, headline risk...etc, you start to see your value proposition erode quickly.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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That makes me scratch my head.

The issue is largely small businesses. A mega-corporation like Apple can own entire factories in China with complete oversight and control. Thus the cheap cost of labor is a direct benefit. Many small businesses, however, have to "rent" factory time in China and often don't get the same treatment; whether it's quality control issues or simply corporate agility. It's a lot easier, especially in a rapidly changing field like technology, to have a factory down the road you have instant access to than rented factory-time in China you have to fly too, brief the factory managers on, and pray they don't mess things up.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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I think the article that was posted a few months ago said that once labor hits as little 33% of American costs that China is no longer as attractive as it is now due to transportation, quality control and the difficulty of operating a factory half way around the world.
 
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ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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WHAM-O® Brings Frisbee® Production to the U.S.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/WHAMO/frisbeeproduction/prweb3412684.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/268495/competing-china-jim-lacey
There are few things more American than the hula hoop and the Frisbee. But for years, these icons of Americana have been made in China. That is ending, as their producer, Wham-O Inc., brought 50 percent of its production back to the United States last year. Wham-O is just the first sign of a developing trend, as firms such as NCR, General Electric, and Caterpillar are bringing jobs home from China. Moreover, many other firms are opting to expand production in the United States, rather than build new facilities in China.

According to a new report from the Boston Consulting Group (BCG), rising manufacturing costs in China are reducing that country’s allure as a location for transplanted American industry. Average Chinese wages remain only 31 percent of what American workers earn, but that figure is expected to rise to 44 percent by 2015. Moreover, the more expensive workers along coastal China will close the gap to an estimated 69 percent by mid-decade. And although Chinese labor remains much cheaper than American labor, it is also less productive. According to BCG senior partner Harold L. Sirkin, once productivity is factored in, Chinese and American labor costs will converge by 2015.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
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Cliffs dude? I got half way through. you wanted us to read this multiple times? your fucking nuts.

Cliffs:
According to the McKinsey Global Institute, the proportion of China's total debt to gross domestic product was 159 percent at the end of 2008, before it began the massive stimulus programme that has racked up piles of local government debt.

China's more fucked than we are.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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In the 1970's New York City defaulted and no one would buy their government notes any longer. Same thing could happen to the USA!

What happens when China says No???
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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In the 1970's New York City defaulted and no one would buy their government notes any longer. Same thing could happen to the USA!

What happens when China says No???

What does China do with the dollars they receive from the trade surplus after that?

In fact, what happens to the dollar once that happens?

Hint: China cannot say no.

I have said this for years, China is heading for a reckoning. For more than 2 decades they have suppressed the Yuan, first to add legitimacy to the Yuan, then to undercut US manufacturers, forcing them to relocate to China. The byproduct of the peg and the resulting trade surplus is an accumulation of dollars, otherwise the dollar would depreciate as more were dumped onto international markets, counteracting the Yuan suppression requiring further Yuan printing internally (inflation!) which results in their labor being less cheap.

To head off this cyclical problem China acquired the one thing that would take the surplus off the market without propping up real US asset prices (like Japan did, big mistake), they bought USTs, keeping the dollars off of the international markets while not spurring US investment (which would have driven the US economy forward). They tried to race against time to build a large enough middle class to enable internal consumer demand, but they need more time and more wealth bought with that time.

They are out of time. Small/medium companies are beginning to homeshore and/or move from China to other countries. The value proposition has deteriorated because the Yuan has to move higher to prevent inflation inside of China and because of the inflation in China. Each one has caused its own problems, the former because the value proposition is gone, the latter because the value proposition is gone AND because asset values are too high for the middle class to afford them AND finally, both because the middle/lower class are losing their jobs.

The question is not what happens to the US when China says "no", it's what happens to China when the world says "no" to offshored manufacturing.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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Why? Labor is a marginal input into most of these products, especially mass produced low cost items. Once you include transportation fuel/time/logistics, quality control issues, political risk, headline risk...etc, you start to see your value proposition erode quickly.

True, but those factors have been in place for years. Why should the value suddenly decrease?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
The issue is largely small businesses. A mega-corporation like Apple can own entire factories in China with complete oversight and control. Thus the cheap cost of labor is a direct benefit. Many small businesses, however, have to "rent" factory time in China and often don't get the same treatment; whether it's quality control issues or simply corporate agility. It's a lot easier, especially in a rapidly changing field like technology, to have a factory down the road you have instant access to than rented factory-time in China you have to fly too, brief the factory managers on, and pray they don't mess things up.

This is also true, but doesn't for me constitute the answer. There are growing alternatives to (increasingly less) cheap Chinese labor in Vietnam and India. Why would they come back to America?