special relativity and magnetic forces

Aug 10, 2001
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According to the theory of special relativity, acceleration in different inertial reference frames is invariant. Then how does one explain the Lorentz force (F = qv X B). which depends on the velocity of a moving charged particle, something that it not invariant in different inertial reference frames? I should know, but I don't. :eek:

Answer :
The more general form of the Lorentz force is F=q(E + v X B). In different reference frames the electric and magnetic fields transform together. So in the reference frame in which you're moving at the same speed as the charge, the force is entirely from the electric field.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
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Originally posted by: Random Variable
But the acceleration caused by the magnetic force is dependent upon the velocity of charged particles (which is not invariant in different inertial reference frames)

those charged particles are massless and move at the speed of light. they ARE affected by relativity. what exactly are you asking?
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
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Time dilation and space dimension contraction always let special relativity get around apparent paradoxes like this.

Also, I seem to recall that at lightspeed, electric and magnetic fields are unified (or something like that).
 
Aug 10, 2001
10,420
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Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Originally posted by: Random Variable
But the acceleration caused by the magnetic force is dependent upon the velocity of charged particles (which is not invariant in different inertial reference frames)

those charged particles are massless and move at the speed of light. they ARE affected by relativity. what exactly are you asking?

Massless? :confused:

And I think my question is pretty clear.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
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Yeah, I know what you're getting at. The question was that if you have an electron moving, it will generate a magnetic field around it. But if you move at the same rate the electron moves, it has no velocity to you so you 'shouldn't' see a magnetic field.... is that the contradiction you're trying to address?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
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Originally posted by: TuxDave
But if you move at the same rate the electron moves, it has no velocity to you so you 'shouldn't' see a magnetic field.... is that the contradiction you're trying to address?

No...
Photon move at the speed of light. The speed of light is the same regardless of what reference frame you are in. You can't move at the speed of light. If you moved at 99.9% of the speed of light in the same direction as the photon, it would still move away from you at the speed of light from your perspective, while an observer would see you both moving away at nearly the speed of light.

edit: photon, not electron
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
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Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Originally posted by: TuxDave
But if you move at the same rate the electron moves, it has no velocity to you so you 'shouldn't' see a magnetic field.... is that the contradiction you're trying to address?

No...
Photon move at the speed of light. The speed of light is the same regardless of what reference frame you are in. You can't move at the speed of light. If you moved at 99.9% of the speed of light in the same direction as the photon, it would still move away from you at the speed of light from your perspective, while an observer would see you both moving away at nearly the speed of light.

edit: photon, not electron

When I said electron, I meant it. I'm not referring to photons at all.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
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Originally posted by: TuxDave
Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Originally posted by: TuxDave
But if you move at the same rate the electron moves, it has no velocity to you so you 'shouldn't' see a magnetic field.... is that the contradiction you're trying to address?

No...
Photon move at the speed of light. The speed of light is the same regardless of what reference frame you are in. You can't move at the speed of light. If you moved at 99.9% of the speed of light in the same direction as the photon, it would still move away from you at the speed of light from your perspective, while an observer would see you both moving away at nearly the speed of light.

edit: photon, not electron

When I said electron, I mean ELECTRON. Not photons.

electrons are NOT the particle that makes up the electromagnetic field, photons are. so your whole post is meaningless.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
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Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Originally posted by: TuxDave
Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Originally posted by: TuxDave
But if you move at the same rate the electron moves, it has no velocity to you so you 'shouldn't' see a magnetic field.... is that the contradiction you're trying to address?

No...
Photon move at the speed of light. The speed of light is the same regardless of what reference frame you are in. You can't move at the speed of light. If you moved at 99.9% of the speed of light in the same direction as the photon, it would still move away from you at the speed of light from your perspective, while an observer would see you both moving away at nearly the speed of light.

edit: photon, not electron

When I said electron, I mean ELECTRON. Not photons.

electrons are NOT the particle that makes up the electromagnetic field, photons are. so your whole post is meaningless.

Of course they don't make up electromagnetic fields. But in the OP he made a reference to:

"magnetic force is dependent upon the velocity of charged particles"

Which is applicable to electrons and the resulting magnetic field when they move.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
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I don't really get what the question is then. If you are holding a bar magnet, you are moving at the same rate as it, and you can "see" it's field. If you are holding that bar magnet in a space craft, flying away from earth at .5 c, you can still "see" the exact same field. This is common sense, and fits with relativity.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: Chiropteran
I don't really get what the question is then. If you are holding a bar magnet, you are moving at the same rate as it, and you can "see" it's field. If you are holding that bar magnet in a space craft, flying away from earth at .5 c, you can still "see" the exact same field. This is common sense, and fits with relativity.

Which is why I asked if the contradiction that I brought up was what he was referring to. If you have a stream of electrons moving past you, you experience a magnetic field moving around them. However, if you decide to move along with them at the same rate, to your frame of reference the electrons do not move. Therefore you should only see a electic field moving away from each of the electrons and no magnetic field anymore.

Whether or not that was the contradiction the OP was asking, I'm still waiting.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
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the magnetic field around any particle is actually comprised of virtual photons, which do not obey planck time. the further you get from them, the weaker the photon force is, which is also what explains the attraction and repulsion of charged particles.

anyway, with respect to the OP, this is an area i know a lot about so let me try to help.

special relativity has two postulates for its foundation. 1) all the laws of physics have the same form in all inertial reference frames and 2) the speed of light in a vacuum has the same value in all inertial frames, regardless of the velocity of the observer or the velocity of the source emitting the light.

based on this, we can conclude the following. from postulate 1, we can assert that all laws of physics (elecricity and magnetism, thermodynamics, optics, etc.) will have the same mathematical form or are covariant in all coordinate frames moving with constant velocity relative to one another. this, experimentally and theoretically, also shows that no absolute reference frame can be determined.

from postulate 2, the principle of the constancy of the speed of light, is consistent with postulate 1. if the speed of light was variant depending on your frame of reference, it would be possible to establish a single, preferred, absolute frame of reference, which would be in contradiction to postulate 1.

now, based on that, you must conclude that there is no absolute length or time in relativity. it is all a function of the reference frame. also, simultaneity and the relativity of time will influence how you preceive a magnetic field to be affecting something in another frame. like i mentioned before, charged particles are actually playing catch with virtual photons, and because virtual photons do not obey the uncertainty principle or planck time, they only exist in less than h-bar/2 time, so the force and acceleration felt by objects in their frame of reference is immediate but dependant upon the relative velocity.
 
Aug 10, 2001
10,420
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Originally posted by: TuxDave
Originally posted by: Chiropteran
I don't really get what the question is then. If you are holding a bar magnet, you are moving at the same rate as it, and you can "see" it's field. If you are holding that bar magnet in a space craft, flying away from earth at .5 c, you can still "see" the exact same field. This is common sense, and fits with relativity.

Which is why I asked if the contradiction that I brought up was what he was referring to. If you have a stream of electrons moving past you, you experience a magnetic field moving around them. However, if you decide to move along with them at the same rate, to your frame of reference the electrons do not move. Therefore you should only see a electic field moving away from each of the electrons and no magnetic field anymore.

Whether or not that was the contradiction the OP was asking, I'm still waiting.

EDIT: That's not quite what I am asking actually. I'm taking about the force on a charge from a magnetic field.
 
Aug 10, 2001
10,420
2
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Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Originally posted by: TuxDave
Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Originally posted by: TuxDave
But if you move at the same rate the electron moves, it has no velocity to you so you 'shouldn't' see a magnetic field.... is that the contradiction you're trying to address?

No...
Photon move at the speed of light. The speed of light is the same regardless of what reference frame you are in. You can't move at the speed of light. If you moved at 99.9% of the speed of light in the same direction as the photon, it would still move away from you at the speed of light from your perspective, while an observer would see you both moving away at nearly the speed of light.

edit: photon, not electron

When I said electron, I mean ELECTRON. Not photons.

electrons are NOT the particle that makes up the electromagnetic field, photons are. so your whole post is meaningless.

A magnetic field exerts a force on a moving charged particle equal to qvXB.