Speak up if you want to remain silent

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37448356/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that suspects must explicitly tell police they want to be silent to invoke Miranda protections during criminal interrogations, a decision one dissenting justice said turns defendants' rights "upside down."

A right to remain silent and a right to a lawyer are the first of the Miranda rights warnings, which police recite to suspects during arrests and interrogations. But the justices said in a 5-4 decision that suspects must tell police they are going to remain silent to stop an interrogation, just as they must tell police that they want a lawyer.

The ruling comes in a case where a suspect, Van Chester Thompkins, remained mostly silent for a three-hour police interrogation before implicating himself in a Jan. 10, 2000, murder in Southfield, Mich. He appealed his conviction, saying that he invoked his Miranda right to remain silent by remaining silent.

But Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing the decision for the court's conservatives, said that wasn't enough.

"Thompkins did not say that he wanted to remain silent or that he did not want to talk to police," Kennedy said. "Had he made either of these simple, unambiguous statements, he would have invoked his 'right to cut off questioning.' Here he did neither, so he did not invoke his right to remain silent."

Justice Sonia Sotomayor, the court's newest member, wrote a strongly worded dissent for the court's liberals, saying the majority's decision "turns Miranda upside down."

"Criminal suspects must now unambiguously invoke their right to remain silent — which counterintuitively, requires them to speak," she said. "At the same time, suspects will be legally presumed to have waived their rights even if they have given no clear expression of their intent to do so. Those results, in my view, find no basis in Miranda or our subsequent cases and are inconsistent with the fair-trial principles on which those precedents are grounded."

Van Chester Thompkins was arrested for murder in 2001 and interrogated by police for three hours. At the beginning, Thompkins was read his Miranda rights and said he understood.

The officers in the room said Thompkins said little during the interrogation, occasionally answering "yes," "no," "I don't know," nodding his head and making eye contact as his responses. But when one of the officers asked him if he prayed for forgiveness for "shooting that boy down," Thompkins said, "Yes."

He was convicted, but on appeal he wanted that statement thrown out because he said he invoked his Miranda rights by being uncommunicative with the interrogating officers.

The Cincinnati-based appeals court agreed and threw out his confession and conviction. The high court reversed that decision. The case is Berghuis v. Thompkins, 08-1470.

Two things stand out, for me:

1. This guy is a complete idiot. If he wanted to remain silent he shouldn't have answered any questions and, literally, should've been totally silent.

2. If this ruling is precedent-setting, it's quite dangerous IMO. Why should something inherent need to be deliberately invoked?
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
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My guess is that if you kill someone, you should invoke your right over and over again. Out of the gene pool.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
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My guess is that if you kill someone, you should invoke your right over and over again. Out of the gene pool.

ProfJohn said:
A murderer stays in jail... seems like a good outcome to me.

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. Of course this guy should remain behind bars, but if this ruling sets a precedent, it's quite a chilling prospect for anyone who's arrested, let alone convicted.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
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Spin aside, the ruling sounds perfectly correct. Nobody is saying that the police can compel anything, or that a person must explicitly say they are invoking their right to silence in order to remain silent when questioned. All that the ruling seems to say is that the police may continue interrogating until the right is explicitly invoked. That gets a big thumbs up from me.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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You're not seeing the forest for the trees. Of course this guy should remain behind bars, but if this ruling sets a precedent, it's quite a chilling prospect for anyone who's arrested, let alone convicted.
Dude... haven't you watched Law & Order???

All you have to say is "I want a lawyer" and they can't ask you any more questions.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
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I am not clear on this, but does this mean that a suspect can now invoke his right to remain silent, and the questioning has to stop? Before, didn't they actually have to endure the interrogation and actually remain silent the whole time? It sounds like it gives suspects more control over their own fate by allowing them to actually invoke the right rather than being required to hold out for a long period of time. I think I must be missing something.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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Spin aside, the ruling sounds perfectly correct. Nobody is saying that the police can compel anything, or that a person must explicitly say they are invoking their right to silence in order to remain silent when questioned.

It doesn't say anything about the police compelling anything, but are you sure about the italicized part?

All that the ruling seems to say is that the police may continue interrogating until the right is explicitly invoked.

That hardly requires a court ruling.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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I've never understood the liberal preoccupation with making sure that guilty people don't get punished. It's bad enough that the cops are required to tell you you have the right to be silent, now lefties are upset that those who don't remain silent aren't to be granted a Mulligan? Bizarre. The Constitution guarantees that you cannot be required to implicate yourself, yet that has somehow morphed into the requirement that the state actively help you avoid implicating yourself.

This does point out a basic difference between liberals and conservatives. A liberal sees a fair trial as every defendant having a fair chance to avoid conviction. A conservative sees a fair trial as a guilty defendant being convicted and an innocent defendant not being convicted.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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Dude... haven't you watched Law & Order???

All you have to say is "I want a lawyer" and they can't ask you any more questions.

Yes I have, but this isn't about what you can say, but about what you apparently now have to say.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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I've never understood the liberal preoccupation with making sure that guilty people don't get punished. It's bad enough that the cops are required to tell you you have the right to be silent, now lefties are upset that those who don't remain silent aren't to be granted a Mulligan? Bizarre. The Constitution guarantees that you cannot be required to implicate yourself, yet that has somehow morphed into the requirement that the state actively help you avoid implicating yourself.

This guy is clearly guilty, but what about the next guy? Why is the inherent right to remain silent no longer inherent and must be explicitly invoked? Why do you have to talk in order to avoid talking?

This does point out a basic difference between liberals and conservatives. A liberal sees a fair trial as every defendant having a fair chance to avoid conviction. A conservative sees a fair trial as a guilty defendant being convicted and an innocent defendant not being convicted.

:rolleyes: Do you honestly believe this? Such black-and-white hyperbole is beneath you, werepossum.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,337
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Yes I have, but this isn't about what you can say, but about what you apparently now have to say.
If you don't say it, they can't read your mind.

Or just sit silent through the interrogation. Obviously this guy didn't remain silent enough. Implicated himself.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
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Don't have a problem with this. I don't think it's asking too much for a suspect to say "I want a lawyer."
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
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It doesn't say anything about the police compelling anything, but are you sure about the italicized part?
I wouldn't say I'm certain because I only read the article and not the ruling. However considering that the article is not exactly a defense of the ruling, and still fails to make a convincing case that the ruling is bad, I don't think I'm gong to bother reading the ruling.
That hardly requires a court ruling.
Agreed. The general principle is clear as day. This only required a ruling because this suspect launched an appeal that was just barely this side of batshit crazy in its claim. If it were 100% insane it could have been denied, but because of that 2% grain of sanity they needed to make a ruling to shut the crazies up.

The case as described seems to say that the suspect was uncooperative for part of the interrogation, and is now claiming that because he didn't spill the beans in the first minutes that he was obviously invoking his right to remain silent. It's absolutely laughable. The flip side is that if the ruling were reversed, then any suspect who doesn't answer a question can't be questioned any more. That would essentially the practice of interrogation completely.

I've always preferred the option of claiming not to understand my rights. :D
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
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The implication with this ruling is that this is not enough to express your decision/choice.

No, actually the implication with this ruling is that is EXACTLY what is required to exercise your right to remain silent, even if you don't explicitly invoke it. The guy did NOT remain silent. :rolleyes:
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
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I thought the most common warning typically starts with, "You have the right to remain silent ..."

It seems odd that one has to forego this right first to get it later??
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
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I thought the most common warning typically starts with, "You have the right to remain silent ..."

It seems odd that one has to forego this right first to get it later??
That's precisely why I've always planned on claiming not to understand my rights. ;) :D
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Put'em in jail and keep them there. Criminals don't need yet another helping hand in avoiding punishment for their deeds.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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If you are ever arrested the only thing out of your mouth should be "I want a lawyer and I'm not saying another word until I speak to one." Simple, and anyone who's too stupid to do that deserves whatever is coming his or her way.
 

MJinZ

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 2009
8,192
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Spin aside, the ruling sounds perfectly correct. Nobody is saying that the police can compel anything, or that a person must explicitly say they are invoking their right to silence in order to remain silent when questioned. All that the ruling seems to say is that the police may continue interrogating until the right is explicitly invoked. That gets a big thumbs up from me.

It's a pretty simple difference of opinion in the fundamental right to be silent.

1) Is it like a right to Free Speech?

2) or is like the right to Personal Safety/bodily harm?

Obviously, free speech rights are explicitly invoked - you do so by opening your mouth.

Obviously, again, the right to be free from bodily harm is not invoked. It is a given that you do not have to invoke it before being protected from someone kicking your ass or stabbing you.

Personally, I'm ambivalent. I can see why it inherently is flawed in practice, because you must break your "right to be silent" in order to actually invoke it.

Then again, the right to a Lawyer and the right to be silent (basically, to not implicate oneself), are not exactly inherent human rights. They are more like social constructs.

So, it comes down to how you think this tilts the power - towards individuality (no matter how retarded or stupid you are) or police power.

I'm surprised that the conservatives of this thread would choose to empower the police state rather than the individual. Wait, no, I am not. What am I thinking, that 1/2 the people here actually have 1/2 a brain?