spare PC, want built a server with, need help

[goom]

Hello there.

Here's the thing. I have an old pc, that i would use as my own server.

It's an core 2 duo, 2.2 if i'm not wrong, a good asus mobo p5b deluxe, 2 GB ram ddr2, gforce video, a 650w psu, and a 80 gb sata II hd.

I have 10TB of data stored here on my own pc. They're distributed on 1x 4TB nas, 2 external drivers, 1.5 and 3TB and a few internal drivers. The big problem is, i don't have backup of it. All running single drivers to store, and the nas is running on a raid -0 so it give me performance and more space, since i'm not running it as raid 1.

Not the 10Tb is really necessary to backup, but at last half of it, i would like to store on the new server, running some type of hardware to avoid loose it in case of a hardware or software issue.

I have some limited experience with raid, i'm been running raid 0 on my systems for some yrs now, that's all. Always used internal raid controllers, never used a pci card or something like that for raid.

I don't have much money to invest on it, since i have all the parts already, i'm just planning buy the 4 x 2TB seagate drivers, the raid pci controller and plug em.

I just wanna build it to store my data, since as i said, i can't loose it, i know even with the raid i can loose my data, but the idea is to store it better than it is as today, without any safety. Since i have almost everything, i'm looking for what to do. I would like to store it, and run an ftp, to share it with some friends. Of course not a fast ftp, just to allow two or three users have access to it when they need that files. Also i would like to have some security on it.

Since i'm noob with this, i'm here looking for some answers.

1- What raid is recomended to do what i need ? 5 ?
1- Can i install windows on a drive, out of the arraym and build the array with all the 2 TB drivers ?
2- Can i encrypt the array with third partie software, like truecrypt ?
3- What type or pci card do i need to build the array ?
4- windows 2k3 or 2k8 can be used ?

Sorry to the poor english. I know i'm looking some noob, but i'm really desperate, cause i can't loose that data, and i thing this spare pc i have here, can, at last for now, or for a year or more, solve my problems.

Some notes:

I'm asking about the windows, cause i have no experience with linux.
As i said, i don't have much money now, so i'm not looking the the best or expensive raid boards, it'll not be a 24/7 FTP. It'll be running 24/7 but mostly of the time as my archive, i'll access it via ftp most of the time, move, copy and transer files on my intenral network, but also via rdc.
it'll not be used as desktop, or games, or any multimedia, it'll basically be my backup ftp with my stuff.

 

[mvbighead]

Look at something like FreeNAS or OpenFiler. They are linux based, and will do pretty much exactly what you are looking for.

Or, you could look at Windows Home Server. It'd also be great for that sort of task, and it'll manage your disks automatically.

Personally, I'd give FreeNAS 8.0 with ZFS support a try. It's free, you can use software to manage the RAID so, should a disk controller fail, you should be able to get the RAID running on a different controller (I believe) by installing FreeNAS on a new system with your current disks connected.

That, and you save money on a controller card. Looks like you have an adequate number of ports on that board, so you could plug in your 80gb drive as the OS disk, and add your new 2tb disks to be assembled into a ZFS array.

 

[elconejito]

Your best, cheapest bet is probably FreeNAS (I've never used OpenFiler). It's actually not hard to setup and run - you don't need to use the command line unless you want to. It's been a while since I used it, but there was even a web interface for it.

If you want to use Windows only, Windows 7 (not sure about earlier) can do software RAID5. It's not very fast, but if it's only for backup and accessing via FTP (which you can also setup easily) that shouldnt be a problem.

For either solution you wouldn't need a hardware RAID card. You are only limited by the number of SATA ports on that motherboard.

1- What raid is recomended to do what i need ? 5 ?
Either RAID 1 or RAID 5. You say you are buying 4 drives..... If you do RAID1 you setup your drives in pairs and from each pair one drive can fail and not lose any data. This is probably the easiest to setup and maintain, but in windows that means you will have 2 drive letters, each one 2TB for a total of 4TB useable space.
If you do RAID5 you setup all your drives together, but one drive is used for parity (if you need more info let us know). So you will have one drive letter of 6TB useable space. Only one drive (doesn't matter which one) can fail before you lose data.

1- Can i install windows on a drive, out of the arraym and build the array with all the 2 TB drivers ?
Yes, in Windows 7 (2k8) you can either build the array before or after your install

2- Can i encrypt the array with third partie software, like truecrypt ?
Not sure if you can encrypt the entire array. You should definitely check on truecrypts site first if that is a dealbreaker. I know for a system partition the encryption loads **before** windows boots (I encrypt all my laptops), but I'm not sure how that works for a 2nd drive.
But even if you can, it might not be worth it to do the entire drive. Because once you've accessed the truecrypt container, any windows process should be able to access it without prompting you again for the password. So that means once anyone sitting at the computer, or accessing that drive via FTP or across the network will be able to see all of the files. Whole disc encryption would really only come in handy if someone stole the whole PC and then the next time they boot up they wouldnt be able to access it (maybe this is what you want).

You might be better off just encrypting some parts of the drive, and only store your sensitve files in there. That way it is only unlocked for YOU when YOU are using it, and no one else. If it helps any, you could encrypt the whole drive (prevent thief from accessing stolen computer) and then have smaller encrypted containers with your sensitive data INSIDE the encrypted partition (to prevent nosy FTP users )

3- What type or pci card do i need to build the array ?
You can use software RAID which should be fine for backups. Only if you need better performance, or need more SATA ports do you need a RAID card. If you do, someone else will have to chime in on which brand/model

4- windows 2k3 or 2k8 can be used ?
I'd go with Win Server 2k8 if it's available to you. It looks a lot like Windows 7. You could also use a regular desktop version of Windows7 which will also support software RAID and you can setup FTP servers (either Windows directly, or 3rd party) as well.

HTH

 

[mfenn]

Your best, cheapest bet is probably FreeNAS (I've never used OpenFiler). It's actually not hard to setup and run - you don't need to use the command line unless you want to. It's been a while since I used it, but there was even a web interface for it.

If you want to use Windows only, Windows 7 (not sure about earlier) can do software RAID5. It's not very fast, but if it's only for backup and accessing via FTP (which you can also setup easily) that shouldnt be a problem.

For either solution you wouldn't need a hardware RAID card. You are only limited by the number of SATA ports on that motherboard.

1- What raid is recomended to do what i need ? 5 ?
Either RAID 1 or RAID 5. You say you are buying 4 drives..... If you do RAID1 you setup your drives in pairs and from each pair one drive can fail and not lose any data. This is probably the easiest to setup and maintain, but in windows that means you will have 2 drive letters, each one 2TB for a total of 4TB useable space.
If you do RAID5 you setup all your drives together, but one drive is used for parity (if you need more info let us know). So you will have one drive letter of 6TB useable space. Only one drive (doesn't matter which one) can fail before you lose data.

1- Can i install windows on a drive, out of the arraym and build the array with all the 2 TB drivers ?
Yes, in Windows 7 (2k8) you can either build the array before or after your install

2- Can i encrypt the array with third partie software, like truecrypt ?
Not sure if you can encrypt the entire array. You should definitely check on truecrypts site first if that is a dealbreaker. I know for a system partition the encryption loads **before** windows boots (I encrypt all my laptops), but I'm not sure how that works for a 2nd drive.
But even if you can, it might not be worth it to do the entire drive. Because once you've accessed the truecrypt container, any windows process should be able to access it without prompting you again for the password. So that means once anyone sitting at the computer, or accessing that drive via FTP or across the network will be able to see all of the files. Whole disc encryption would really only come in handy if someone stole the whole PC and then the next time they boot up they wouldnt be able to access it (maybe this is what you want).

You might be better off just encrypting some parts of the drive, and only store your sensitve files in there. That way it is only unlocked for YOU when YOU are using it, and no one else. If it helps any, you could encrypt the whole drive (prevent thief from accessing stolen computer) and then have smaller encrypted containers with your sensitive data INSIDE the encrypted partition (to prevent nosy FTP users )

3- What type or pci card do i need to build the array ?
You can use software RAID which should be fine for backups. Only if you need better performance, or need more SATA ports do you need a RAID card. If you do, someone else will have to chime in on which brand/model

4- windows 2k3 or 2k8 can be used ?
I'd go with Win Server 2k8 if it's available to you. It looks a lot like Windows 7. You could also use a regular desktop version of Windows7 which will also support software RAID and you can setup FTP servers (either Windows directly, or 3rd party) as well.

HTH

Good advice. One point that I'd like to make is that I don't think the client versions of Windows (e.g. Windows 7) can do software RAID5. Unless you know some registry hack that I don't? The server versions can though.

 

[elconejito]

Good advice. One point that I'd like to make is that I don't think the client versions of Windows (e.g. Windows 7) can do software RAID5. Unless you know some registry hack that I don't? The server versions can though.

I'm running RAID5 on one of my computers with Windows 7 Home Premium (I think its home premium...). And I was running RAID10 (0+1?) on my main desktop (definitely Win7 Home Premium), but that pretty well sucked so I dropped to RAID0 and made sure my backups were up to date....

 

[goom]

ok, first of all thx for the fast and nice answers mvbighead, elconejito and mfenn.

Sorry for the very late answer, was really a BUSY day :/

OK. i understood a lot of things, and have some other questions to do, hope u guys can keep helping me, i really don't wanna abuse, or be a pain

So, according to the specifications of my mobo, i can set raid 5 using my own mobo. (http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_775/P5B_DeluxeWiFiAP/#specifications)

It says:

- 6 x SATA 3.0 Gb/s ports
- Intel Matrix Storage Technology supports RAID 0, 1, 5 and 10.


I've been googling during the day at office, and i've learned that when i plug 3 drivers or more, the raid setup will automatic gimme the opiton to set it as raid 5.

So since i have 6 sata ports, i'll plug all drivers on (the 5x 2tb for the raid, and a 1 x 80 gb sata to the os) and setup the array using the 5 drivers.

So here start my doubts.

1- This raid 5, from my mobo, will work fine, just like any other raid controller ? I mean, is it trustable ? let's say after some time, one of the HDD die, the internall controller has the capacity to rebuild the array fine ?

2- Is a 600w PSU enuff to hold these 6 HDD's and a DVD optical driver ?

Now, personally, mvbighead, do i install and setup FreeNAS on it right after windows install finishes ? I mean, i still need setup it in bios as RAID, and create the array using the mobo raid setup, or i can setup it as ide, just add the drivers and free nas will do the rest of the work later ? i'm a bit lost.

elconejito, let's talk about the future. Today, i'm building these machine, but let's say, next month, i get some free money, and can buy 1 or another 2 drivers, how it will work ?

I mean, i'll not have any free sata port available, will be possible add new drivers to the array ?

When i add a new driver to the array, do i need setup everything again ? I mean, if for example, the current array is up and running, and it's encrypted, how can i add a new single driver to the array, also encrypted or not, and do it work ?

And yes, as i said before, it'll be basically a big archive, it'll just have an ftp running on it in case i need access it from outside my own pc, or upload some stuff the there anywhere. I know how to setup an ftp server securely, (ya, filezilla does the job) so that's not a big issue.

Well, that it for now. One more time thx for all the answers, and sorry to be such a noob asking it, i have no one to help me out, plus i wanna learn

Thank you again.

PS: is 2GB of ram fine to run it ? It's an old and cheap ddr 2 mem, so i can afford another 2GB if it'll run better with 4GB instead 2GB of ram

 

[mvbighead]

ok, first of all thx for the fast and nice answers mvbighead, elconejito and mfenn.

Sorry for the very late answer, was really a BUSY day :/

OK. i understood a lot of things, and have some other questions to do, hope u guys can keep helping me, i really don't wanna abuse, or be a pain

So, according to the specifications of my mobo, i can set raid 5 using my own mobo. (http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_775/P5B_DeluxeWiFiAP/#specifications)

It says:

- 6 x SATA 3.0 Gb/s ports
- Intel Matrix Storage Technology supports RAID 0, 1, 5 and 10.


I've been googling during the day at office, and i've learned that when i plug 3 drivers or more, the raid setup will automatic gimme the opiton to set it as raid 5.

So since i have 6 sata ports, i'll plug all drivers on (the 5x 2tb for the raid, and a 1 x 80 gb sata to the os) and setup the array using the 5 drivers.

So here start my doubts.

1- This raid 5, from my mobo, will work fine, just like any other raid controller ? I mean, is it trustable ? let's say after some time, one of the HDD die, the internall controller has the capacity to rebuild the array fine ?

2- Is a 600w PSU enuff to hold these 6 HDD's and a DVD optical driver ?

Now, personally, mvbighead, do i install and setup FreeNAS on it right after windows install finishes ? I mean, i still need setup it in bios as RAID, and create the array using the mobo raid setup, or i can setup it as ide, just add the drivers and free nas will do the rest of the work later ? i'm a bit lost.

elconejito, let's talk about the future. Today, i'm building these machine, but let's say, next month, i get some free money, and can buy 1 or another 2 drivers, how it will work ?

I mean, i'll not have any free sata port available, will be possible add new drivers to the array ?

When i add a new driver to the array, do i need setup everything again ? I mean, if for example, the current array is up and running, and it's encrypted, how can i add a new single driver to the array, also encrypted or not, and do it work ?

And yes, as i said before, it'll be basically a big archive, it'll just have an ftp running on it in case i need access it from outside my own pc, or upload some stuff the there anywhere. I know how to setup an ftp server securely, (ya, filezilla does the job) so that's not a big issue.

Well, that it for now. One more time thx for all the answers, and sorry to be such a noob asking it, i have no one to help me out, plus i wanna learn

Thank you again.

PS: is 2GB of ram fine to run it ? It's an old and cheap ddr 2 mem, so i can afford another 2GB if it'll run better with 4GB instead 2GB of ram

FreeNAS is a standalone operating system.

Also, in terms of using the RAID from your board, I can't be 100% sure, but I think it may be advisable to use the ZFS software RAID so you can port the drives over to a different board should your current board fail. Since the ZFS raid array is driven by the operating system, it "should" be able to move to other hardware should something serious happen.

*** DISCLAIMER *** - I have not done this myself, so I cannot state with 100% certainty that it will work... but in the case of using this to backup your data, using the ZFS system should give you an additional recovery option should your MB fail.

And, if you give FreeNAS a try, it should perform well with the specs you've given. Just add your drives and go to town.

EDIT: 600 watts should be plenty, IMO.

 

[elconejito]

ok, first of all thx for the fast and nice answers mvbighead, elconejito and mfenn.

Sorry for the very late answer, was really a BUSY day :/

OK. i understood a lot of things, and have some other questions to do, hope u guys can keep helping me, i really don't wanna abuse, or be a pain

So, according to the specifications of my mobo, i can set raid 5 using my own mobo. (http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_775/P5B_DeluxeWiFiAP/#specifications)

It says:

- 6 x SATA 3.0 Gb/s ports
- Intel Matrix Storage Technology supports RAID 0, 1, 5 and 10.


I've been googling during the day at office, and i've learned that when i plug 3 drivers or more, the raid setup will automatic gimme the opiton to set it as raid 5.

So since i have 6 sata ports, i'll plug all drivers on (the 5x 2tb for the raid, and a 1 x 80 gb sata to the os) and setup the array using the 5 drivers.

I don't recall that board specifically, but make sure that all 6 ports are from the same chipset. *some* boards have an additional controller to add extra ports and you cannot RAID across chipsets (as far as I know).

So here start my doubts.

1- This raid 5, from my mobo, will work fine, just like any other raid controller ? I mean, is it trustable ? let's say after some time, one of the HDD die, the internall controller has the capacity to rebuild the array fine ?

Yes it will rebuild if something happens. It is slow however. Which RAID type you use (1, 10, 5) will determine how many and which drives can fail before you really get into trouble.

As an additional note, don't depend solely on RAID. RAID is just one part of having a good backup and redundancy plan.

2- Is a 600w PSU enuff to hold these 6 HDD's and a DVD optical driver ?

Should be more than plenty.

Now, personally, mvbighead, do i install and setup FreeNAS on it right after windows install finishes ? I mean, i still need setup it in bios as RAID, and create the array using the mobo raid setup, or i can setup it as ide, just add the drivers and free nas will do the rest of the work later ? i'm a bit lost.

You install FreeNAS ***instead*** of windows.

elconejito, let's talk about the future. Today, i'm building these machine, but let's say, next month, i get some free money, and can buy 1 or another 2 drivers, how it will work ?

I mean, i'll not have any free sata port available, will be possible add new drivers to the array ?

When i add a new driver to the array, do i need setup everything again ? I mean, if for example, the current array is up and running, and it's encrypted, how can i add a new single driver to the array, also encrypted or not, and do it work ?

Now this is getting into an area where I'm not very sure. I've never tried to add a disk to an existing RAID5 array. I *think* you can do it and then rebuild the array, but I'm not 100% sure (it would probably take a long time tho...). If you are creating RAID1 arrays, then just add another pair which will give you another drive letter.

More than likely what you would end up doing is copying all the data somewhere(s). Destroying your current array, adding the new drive and creating a new array. Then copy all the data back to the new array.

For the encryption (again I'm a little fuzzy on this but I *think* this is how it works) if you do an encryption of the entire drive then I *think* it should be OK. because the encryption is based on the drive as it is presented to the encryption. The encryption doesnt care if its a RAID drive or a regular drive, it just cares if it is "drive".

If expanding the array is important to you, I'd suggest filling it up with some data and then try and expand it. Don't try it with real data that you are concerned you might lose.

And yes, as i said before, it'll be basically a big archive, it'll just have an ftp running on it in case i need access it from outside my own pc, or upload some stuff the there anywhere. I know how to setup an ftp server securely, (ya, filezilla does the job) so that's not a big issue.

Well, that it for now. One more time thx for all the answers, and sorry to be such a noob asking it, i have no one to help me out, plus i wanna learn

Thank you again.

PS: is 2GB of ram fine to run it ? It's an old and cheap ddr 2 mem, so i can afford another 2GB if it'll run better with 4GB instead 2GB of ram

2GB is plenty if all it will be doing is serving files.

 

[mfenn]

I agree with mvbighead, don't use BIOS RAID (aka FakeRAID) if you can avoid it. If you're running FreeNAS (and I highly recommend you do), you will want to create a software RAID within FreeNAS itself. That gives you more portability and flexibility.

 

[Paperlantern]

2GB is plenty if all it will be doing is serving files.

512MB is plenty if all it is doing is serving files.

 

[goom]

Hi, i'm back, sorry for the long time, were very loong days in here since last post.

well, in the end i've moved to a new mobo, the asus P6T Deluxe v2.

I've put there 1x 60GB Corsair F60 SSD, and 5x 2TB Seagate SAT-A II HDD's. Started the pc, ctrl + i, created the RAID-5 array, and fresh install of win7 ultimate x64. after it done, installed intel rapid storage tech (IRST) software.

After four loong days, if finally finished 100% initialize the volume. Now i have one volume of 7.3TB in one array (with Data strip: 64 KB used to build the volume)

Now, when i right click on Computer > Manage > Disk Management, i select the disk 1 right click > new single volume, use all space available, pick a letter, than i'll format it as NTFS and there the problem:

I have to choose the Allocation unit size to format it, and these are the options available: 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16K 32K 64K

Witch one should i use to format this Volume ?

as i said, it'll host big files only, like an archive, i'll be running 24/7, i'll copy files to there over lan, and will run a small ftp so i can put my files there anywhere

Thank you very much

 

[mfenn]

Allocation unit size is basically a tradeoff between large file performance and space wasted on small files.

As a quick background (grossly simplified), the allocation unit is the smallest individually addressable part of the filesystem. So, a 1TB file on a volume with allocation units of the size 4KB will be comprised of 256 million allocation units. The same 1TB file on a volume with 64KB allocation units would be made up of 16 million allocation units. 16 million is obviously a lot easier to deal with than 256 million.

However, the allocation unit size also determine the minimum amount of space that a file can be allocated. So, with 64KB allocation units, each file will use at least 64KB of space, no matter how much data is actually in the file.

In your case, with larger files it makes sense to go with a larger allocation unit size. 16K should be plenty big enough.