SpaceX's Falcon 9 Rocket Launch and landing tomorrow very AM

[Brovane]

Does there landing platform provide sufficient radar returns?

It is a good size ship. I am sure that is something they are looking at right now as part of going over the telemetry. They have a lot of hard data from this test.

 

[Brovane]

I assume this was during freefall back to Earth? Otherwise, they're never in a low g environment.

This was AS-203 flight of the Saturn-IB. The S-IVB-500 (3rd stage of the Saturn-V) had a planned flight profile that would involve a parking orbit before a 2nd burn for TLI (Trans-Lunar-Injection). NASA and Douglas (S-IVB Manufacturer) wanted to know how weightlessness would affect LH2. They launched a Saturn-IB with no payload so the S-IVB stage could get into orbit with sufficient residual propellant. They mounted 2 TV cameras with a view of the tank inside the S-IVB so they could observe how the propellant behaved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS-203

 

[Oceanas]

I assume this was during freefall back to Earth? Otherwise, they're never in a low g environment.

I'm not sure if the camera was in the first or second stage tank, since they didn't say. Both first and second stage engines can restart, so I'm sure they are probably interested in the fuel flow of both.

Here is a view in the second stage fuel tank from the previous flight.

 

[Oceanas]

More info from Elon Musk. Apparently the fins on the first stage used to control the rocket ran out of hydraulic fluid.

Elon Musk @elonmusk · 23m 23 minutes ago Grid fins worked extremely well from hypersonic velocity to subsonic, but ran out of hydraulic fluid right before landing.




Elon Musk @elonmusk · 21m 21 minutes ago Upcoming flight already has 50% more hydraulic fluid, so should have plenty of margin for landing attempt next month.
0 replies 240 retweets 485 favorites






https://twitter.com/elonmusk

 

[Brovane]

Now it would be fantastic if this principle could be applied to the planned heavy lift vehicle, the SRS. If one or more stages could be reused the costs would plummet as would time between launches. Don't know if that will happen or if the design is compatible, but it would be our first truly economical heaver lifter. I'd love to see it.

If you are referring to the SLS, the design isn't compatible with attempting something like this. However SpaceX is planning to design 1st stage recover-ability into their planned HLV. So this concept will be applied to a HLV, just not a NASA one. :whiste:

 

[Brovane]

More info from Elon Musk. Apparently the fins on the first stage used to control the rocket ran out of hydraulic fluid.

Elon Musk @elonmusk · 23m 23 minutes ago Grid fins worked extremely well from hypersonic velocity to subsonic, but ran out of hydraulic fluid right before landing.




Elon Musk @elonmusk · 21m 21 minutes ago Upcoming flight already has 50% more hydraulic fluid, so should have plenty of margin for landing attempt next month.
0 replies 240 retweets 485 favorites






https://twitter.com/elonmusk

Awesome, exactly why you have flight tests, work these things out.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If you are referring to the SLS, the design isn't compatible with attempting something like this. However SpaceX is planning to design 1st stage recover-ability into their planned HLV. So this concept will be applied to a HLV, just not a NASA one. :whiste:

Yep I had the acronym wrong. I haven't read up on SHLV efforts by Musk very much, but I looked at a May 2014, and to say he has ambitious plans is an understatement, however NASA doesn't seem interested in innovation these days and the possibility of the Falcon XX with Raptor engines and nuclear upper stages is far far beyond anything I'm aware of NASA pursuing. Then there's the end result of all this, the Mars Colonial Transport. I'm not betting the farm on anything, but so far Musk has done a great deal while the government has been sitting on it's hands. While it remains to be seen it could be that Musk may be the next Goddard. I hope so.

 

[Brovane]

Yep I had the acronym wrong. I haven't read up on SHLV efforts by Musk very much, but I looked at a May 2014, and to say he has ambitious plans is an understatement, however NASA doesn't seem interested in innovation these days and the possibility of the Falcon XX with Raptor engines and nuclear upper stages is far far beyond anything I'm aware of NASA pursuing. Then there's the end result of all this, the Mars Colonial Transport. I'm not betting the farm on anything, but so far Musk has done a great deal while the government has been sitting on it's hands. While it remains to be seen it could be that Musk may be the next Goddard. I hope so.

If you haven't already read this article you might find it interesting. It is from August of last year but covers fairly well both NASA and SpaceX HLV plans. SpaceX is expected this year to review more details about it's HLV. The new Engine is a long lead time item for SpaceX and is already under development.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/08/battle-heavyweight-rockets-sls-exploration-rival/

SpaceX is still on track for the first flight of the Falcon Heavy this year. A successful flight of Falcon Heavy will give SpaceX the most powerful rocket that is in active service.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/pad-39a-spacex-groundwork-falcon-heavy-debut/

 

[Paratus]

Yep I had the acronym wrong. I haven't read up on SHLV efforts by Musk very much, but I looked at a May 2014, and to say he has ambitious plans is an understatement, however NASA doesn't seem interested in innovation these days and the possibility of the Falcon XX with Raptor engines and nuclear upper stages is far far beyond anything I'm aware of NASA pursuing. Then there's the end result of all this, the Mars Colonial Transport. I'm not betting the farm on anything, but so far Musk has done a great deal while the government has been sitting on it's hands. While it remains to be seen it could be that Musk may be the next Goddard. I hope so.

The proposed Falcon XX is basically in the same category as the proposed SLS block II. 140 tonnes vs 130 tonnes to LEO respectively. As for a nuclear upper stage, that's not on anyone's books until the legal hurdles are cleared. Although for either rocket I would love a nuclear upper stage and/or nuclear electric propulsion.

I'd also point out that part of the reason we have SpaceX, Falcon9 and The Dragon cargo/manned vehicles is to support the government built and run ISS.

The governments role in creating a commercial space flight market shouldn't be over looked. Without it there wouldn't the financial incentive to have the market we do.

 

[MongGrel]

The proposed Falcon XX is basically in the same category as the proposed SLS block II. 140 tonnes vs 130 tonnes to LEO respectively. As for a nuclear upper stage, that's not on anyone's books until the legal hurdles are cleared. Although for either rocket I would love a nuclear upper stage and/or nuclear electric propulsion.

I'd also point out that part of the reason we have SpaceX, Falcon9 and The Dragon cargo/manned vehicles is to support the government built and run ISS.

The governments role in creating a commercial space flight market shouldn't be over looked. Without it there wouldn't the financial incentive to have the market we do.

So true.

I'm not an economist, but I imagine NASA's budget these days might be lower for innovation than what some of the private sector guys are pumping into advanced space flight ideas.

That or they are more concerned with the things past getting to orbital a bit, with what they have to work with.

 

[Brovane]

The proposed Falcon XX is basically in the same category as the proposed SLS block II. 140 tonnes vs 130 tonnes to LEO respectively. As for a nuclear upper stage, that's not on anyone's books until the legal hurdles are cleared. Although for either rocket I would love a nuclear upper stage and/or nuclear electric propulsion.

I'd also point out that part of the reason we have SpaceX, Falcon9 and The Dragon cargo/manned vehicles is to support the government built and run ISS.

The governments role in creating a commercial space flight market shouldn't be over looked. Without it there wouldn't the financial incentive to have the market we do.

Govt has a huge role in Commercial space flight. Govt's are the biggest customers of launch providers. NASA had a key role in going back over ten years in assisting SpaceX with both money and technology to foster the development of the Falcon launch vehicle and the Dragon spacecraft. For United Launch Alliance, almost all of it's launches are paid for by Govt contracts. The Atlas-V has only had a couple of Commercial launches and the rest are all govt. Falcon9v1.1 with it's short flight history has had more launches for private Commercial launches than Delta-IV and Atlas-V combined.

 

[Franz316]

I have to hand it to Elon, he sets his sights high in everything he does. He's one of the few CEOs that is worthy of admiration. Hopefully they can work out the kinks and get the landing down.

I assume they are forced into trying to land on a water platform and not a land one for safety issues, right? I guess they could get a small island or something but a water platform gives some flexibility since it is moveable.

 

[destrekor]

I have to hand it to Elon, he sets his sights high in everything he does. He's one of the few CEOs that is worthy of admiration. Hopefully they can work out the kinks and get the landing down.

I assume they are forced into trying to land on a water platform and not a land one for safety issues, right? I guess they could get a small island or something but a water platform gives some flexibility since it is moveable.

Either the long-term plan is to continue to use that floating platform for lowest possible risk, or they are sticking to the platform for flight-testing, with intent to move onto land in the future.


And yup, I love Elon Musk for what he pushes his companies to achieve. More importantly, he also has that playboy approach to things, the way he carries himself and what he says on twitter and in interviews - he's a welcome change to the stuffy CEO approach. He seems to carry the "start up" attitude and bravado through everything he does, with no intent of backing off that pace.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Govt has a huge role in Commercial space flight. Govt's are the biggest customers of launch providers. NASA had a key role in going back over ten years in assisting SpaceX with both money and technology to foster the development of the Falcon launch vehicle and the Dragon spacecraft. For United Launch Alliance, almost all of it's launches are paid for by Govt contracts. The Atlas-V has only had a couple of Commercial launches and the rest are all govt. Falcon9v1.1 with it's short flight history has had more launches for private Commercial launches than Delta-IV and Atlas-V combined.

NASA provides support to be sure, but politics and budget nonsense prevent them from reaching their full potential IMO. Consequently people like Musk drive advancement more than they can. If I had my way I'd support far greater funding to NASA and private companies and encourage close collaboration for advanced projects. Syria and NSA black budgets however seem to eclipse scientific research and discovery with ridiculously expensive for military goods we don't need taking a far higher priority. Sadly I don't see that ever changing.

 

[Paratus]

Govt has a huge role in Commercial space flight. Govt's are the biggest customers of launch providers. NASA had a key role in going back over ten years in assisting SpaceX with both money and technology to foster the development of the Falcon launch vehicle and the Dragon spacecraft. For United Launch Alliance, almost all of it's launches are paid for by Govt contracts. The Atlas-V has only had a couple of Commercial launches and the rest are all govt. Falcon9v1.1 with it's short flight history has had more launches for private Commercial launches than Delta-IV and Atlas-V combined.

I think SpaceX is great for the launch market. Forcing ULA to have compete is a huge benefit. There's a lot of opportunity for the Falcon family of launchers.

My one concern, however, is for the heaviest variant. ISS commercial crew and cargo, DOD launches and commercial satellite are all done with the smaller launchers. The only money in heavy launch is for deep space exploration, which congress has dictated will be SLS. This assumes that a new administration doesn't cancel the whole program in the first place.

I understand Elon has farsighted plans and be can use the current Falcon design along with commercial profits to fund the heavy variant. I just don't see a path with a reasonable amount of risk to commercialize a heavy launcher in the foreseeable future. At least not with changing congresses mind.

IMHO

What do you think?

 

[destrekor]

I think SpaceX is great for the launch market. Forcing ULA to have compete is a huge benefit. There's a lot of opportunity for the Falcon family of launchers.

My one concern, however, is for the heaviest variant. ISS commercial crew and cargo, DOD launches and commercial satellite are all done with the smaller launchers. The only money in heavy launch is for deep space exploration, which congress has dictated will be SLS. This assumes that a new administration doesn't cancel the whole program in the first place.

I understand Elon has farsighted plans and be can use the current Falcon design along with commercial profits to fund the heavy variant. I just don't see a path with a reasonable amount of risk to commercialize a heavy launcher in the foreseeable future. At least not with changing congresses mind.

IMHO

What do you think?

I think it will be a case of build it and they will come. In the near-far-future (20 years?), I think private industry interest in building larger projects in orbit will percolate.

I wouldn't doubt that even Musk himself has some plans along those lines.

 

[Brovane]

I think SpaceX is great for the launch market. Forcing ULA to have compete is a huge benefit. There's a lot of opportunity for the Falcon family of launchers.

My one concern, however, is for the heaviest variant. ISS commercial crew and cargo, DOD launches and commercial satellite are all done with the smaller launchers. The only money in heavy launch is for deep space exploration, which congress has dictated will be SLS. This assumes that a new administration doesn't cancel the whole program in the first place.

I understand Elon has farsighted plans and be can use the current Falcon design along with commercial profits to fund the heavy variant. I just don't see a path with a reasonable amount of risk to commercialize a heavy launcher in the foreseeable future. At least not with changing congresses mind.

IMHO

What do you think?

With re-usability a commercial HLV is possible. Originally as SpaceX envisioned they wanted to make the Falcon9 1st and 2nd stage re-usable. From what I have read they have abandoned doing the 2nd stage re-usability, just not enough Mass fraction. If you can say create a 100-ton class HLV that can for example put 30-40 tons into Orbit with full re-usability of 1st and 2nd stage then and do a 100-tons with no re-usability.

This assumes that SpaceX makes enough strides in re-usability to minimize refurbishment costs between launches. If you get things to the point that the majority of the cost is fuel then it doesn't matter if it is a HLV or a smaller rocket. The actual cost of the rocket isn't really relevant. Not saying that SpaceX can get to the point but a HLV would have the necessary Mass to be fully re-usable and still get a decent payload into orbit.

 

[MongGrel]

In 20 years I could see orbital cruise ships more or less

It really wouldn't surprise me a lot, even if a bit ambitious.

 

[Brovane]

And yup, I love Elon Musk for what he pushes his companies to achieve. More importantly, he also has that playboy approach to things, the way he carries himself and what he says on twitter and in interviews - he's a welcome change to the stuffy CEO approach. He seems to carry the "start up" attitude and bravado through everything he does, with no intent of backing off that pace.

http://shitelonsays.com/

 

[Blitzvogel]

I'm not sure if the camera was in the first or second stage tank, since they didn't say. Both first and second stage engines can restart, so I'm sure they are probably interested in the fuel flow of both.

Here is a view in the second stage fuel tank from the previous flight.

Luckily there is enough fuel cached in the fuel intake and pumping system to restart it, "pushing" the fuel back down to the bottom during positive acceleration.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think it will be a case of build it and they will come. In the near-far-future (20 years?), I think private industry interest in building larger projects in orbit will percolate.

I wouldn't doubt that even Musk himself has some plans along those lines.

I agree. Right now there isn't much interest because planning to use unobtanium isn't very profitable. Change that and who knows? If He3 turns out to be relatively easy to mine on the Moon and useful for fusion, that could be a motivation to go there and establish a base. From that location low gravity opens many more options. Of course this is all speculation on my part, but I don't think it's an unreasonable possibility, and without doubt other unthought applications will drive development. I like to imagine that my grandchildren or great-grandchildren will regard space travel as we do flying now. I don't expect them to be commuting to Mars, but suborbital flights and excursions into space seen as commonplace. I'd like to see the technology which comes about by unexpected uses of discoveries and developments in such enterprises. It could be a lot of fun.

 

[Thebobo]

Picture of barge - expand to see the detail.

 

[Brovane]

That will buff right out.....:biggrin:

 

[Thebobo]

Newly released image of landing on barge

 

[uhohs]

is it in the process of tipping over and exploding?