South Dakota now requires 3-day waiting period for abortions

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jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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That it would, and I'm not arguing that foetuses are people, just potential life.

I think it's unarguable that a fertilized egg is life. That's not really a high bar, bacteria and plants are life. It's simply not a legal person, though it is potentially one.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
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I think it's unarguable that a fertilized egg is life. That's not really a high bar, bacteria and plants are life. It's simply not a legal person, though it is potentially one.

Fair enough, I'm not arguing that it is life, I'm arguing that it is potential life.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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No one advocates the killing of innocent children, so you're starting off on powerful rhetoric but shaky logical ground. The debate is and essentially always has been around what qualifies as a child. You might consider a 5 week old group of cells a baby, I do not. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.

Personally, I consider a beating heart the line between a clump of cells and a living child. The heart starts beating somewhere around the 3rd - 5th weeks of development.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
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Personally, I consider a beating heart the line between a clump of cells and a living child. The heart starts beating somewhere around the 3rd - 5th weeks of development.

That's a somewhat unique definition, I've heard people define life as cognition or feeling or ability to feel pain. Interesting.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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That's a somewhat unique definition, I've heard people define life as cognition or feeling or ability to feel pain. Interesting.

Lets take a 20 year old brain dead adult as an example. Their brain is dead, they feel nothing, their on a breathing machine, but their heart is still beating. Nobody can just go kill that person.

Then lets take a 2 month old fetus, with a beating heart and can feel pain for example.

But for some reason its ok to kill the fetus?

If we use the excuse "but its a womans right" - then the hospital or power company should be able to pull the plug on the adults breathing machine and let them die. After all, the brain dead adult is a burden on the hospital and power company. The hospital should have to right to kill whoever they do not want in their building. No quality of life? No problem, where is that plug.


I think it's unarguable that a fertilized egg is life. That's not really a high bar, bacteria and plants are life. It's simply not a legal person, though it is potentially one.

Bacteria and plants do not have beating hearts - people do.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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My only problem with abortion is the men almost never get any say. If I knock some chick up and I want to keep the kid, I don't want her running off and aborting it. To me that's the only thing wrong with it. People should be more responsible when it comes to sex and keep abortion as a last option, but whatever abort away.

We humans have been aborting fetuses since before a single person had the concept of heaven or hell. We had to, babies are resource and time expensive, life up until recently has been quite fucking hard.
This demonstrates not only that life isn't fair, but that it cannot be fair. The man has no say in whether a woman keeps or aborts a baby, but is also required to support the baby if she decides to keep it. There is literally no way to solve that inequity without forcing an inequity on the woman.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
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Lets take a 20 year old brain dead adult as an example. Their brain is dead, they feel nothing, their on a breathing machine, but their heart is still beating. Nobody can just go kill that person.

Then lets take a 2 month old fetus, with a beating heart and can feel pain for example.

But for some reason its ok to kill the fetus?

If we use the excuse "but its a womans right" - then the hospital or power company should be able to pull the plug on the adults breathing machine and let them die. After all, the brain dead adult is a burden on the hospital and power company. The hospital should have to right to kill whoever they do not want in their building. No quality of life? No problem, where is that plug.

I agree, I'm not condemning your definition I'm saying it's interesting. I'm completely against killing in all forms, abortion included.

This demonstrates not only that life isn't fair, but that it cannot be fair. The man has no say in whether a woman keeps or aborts a baby, but is also required to support the baby if she decides to keep it. There is literally no way to solve that inequity without forcing an inequity on the woman.

Men should have a say in a woman having an abortion, they should have the right to object then they woman should have to carry it.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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Lets take a 20 year old brain dead adult as an example. Their brain is dead, they feel nothing, their on a breathing machine, but their heart is still beating. Nobody can just go kill that person.

Then lets take a 2 month old fetus, with a beating heart and can feel pain for example.

But for some reason its ok to kill the fetus?

Of course you can unplug a brain dead person from a breathing tube. That's what we do with brain dead people. Brain death is the legal definition of dead even if life support keeps the body working.

If you want to compare a fetus to a legally dead person you're not helping your argument.

If we use the excuse "but its a womans right" - then the hospital or power company should be able to pull the plug on the adults breathing machine and let them die. After all, the brain dead adult is a burden on the hospital and power company. The hospital should have to right to kill whoever they do not want in their building. No quality of life? No problem, where is that plug.

What does a hospital's burden have to do with a woman's control over her own body? Your argument is really conflating multiple inapplicable analogies.

Bacteria and plants do not have beating hearts - people do.

If you bother to read carefully you'll see that I was endorsing a fetus as life, merely not a legal person.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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SNIP
Men should have a say in a woman having an abortion, they should have the right to object then they woman should have to carry it.
I disagree. Having to sustain a growing life is a burden on the woman, just as having to support a child is a burden on the man. I'm all for giving the father custody if the mother chooses to have but not keep the baby, but not of forcing the mother to carry the child to term. Until the baby is viable outside the womb, it's dependent on her body alone, and just as you cannot force a person to give up a kidney to a child, neither should you be able to force a woman to carry to term a child she does not want.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
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I disagree. Having to sustain a growing life is a burden on the woman, just as having to support a child is a burden on the man. I'm all for giving the father custody if the mother chooses to have but not keep the baby, but not of forcing the mother to carry the child to term. Until the baby is viable outside the womb, it's dependent on her body alone, and just as you cannot force a person to give up a kidney to a child, neither should you be able to force a woman to carry to term a child she does not want.

In my opinion you shouldn't have sex unless you are prepared accept the responsibilities of pregnancy, by having sex in the first place you are committing yourself to accept the consequences.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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Men should have a say in a woman having an abortion, they should have the right to object then they woman should have to carry it.

What if he lied and told her he had a vesctomy but didn't actually? This guy gets a say? What about a rapist? What about a physically abusive husband?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Lets take a 20 year old brain dead adult as an example. Their brain is dead, they feel nothing, their on a breathing machine, but their heart is still beating. Nobody can just go kill that person.

Then lets take a 2 month old fetus, with a beating heart and can feel pain for example.

But for some reason its ok to kill the fetus?

If we use the excuse "but its a womans right" - then the hospital or power company should be able to pull the plug on the adults breathing machine and let them die. After all, the brain dead adult is a burden on the hospital and power company. The hospital should have to right to kill whoever they do not want in their building. No quality of life? No problem, where is that plug.




Bacteria and plants do not have beating hearts - people do.
Not quite an accurate analogy. If a woman is pregnant, I cannot kill the fetus, but the woman can choose to remove it from her body. I think if the baby is viable outside the womb then society has the right to force the woman to do so in such a way as to minimize damage to the baby, or possibly (big gray area) even to force her to carry it to term as long as society then supports her through that period and the recovery. But most abortions by far are of nonviable babies. This is most analogous to a hospital getting a court order to shut down life support on a nonviable (e.g. brain dead) adult, except with a committee of one, the woman carrying the baby.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
76
What if he lied and told her he had a vesctomy but didn't actually? This guy gets a say? What about a rapist? What about a physically abusive husband?

All of those a different, I'm talking about consensual sex, but the vasectomy one, people should still accept there is a risk. even people who have had a vasectomy in rare cases can impregnate girls, it's rare, but it happens.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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All of those a different, I'm talking about consensual sex, but the vasectomy one, people should still accept there is a risk. even people who have had a vasectomy in rare cases can impregnate girls, it's rare, but it happens.

What does the baby care if its father received permission from its mother before fertilizing her? If you believe a fetus is a person all the abortion exceptions are deemed irrelevant else the position becomes hypocritical.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
76
What does the baby care if its father received permission from its mother before fertilizing her? If you believe a fetus is a person all the abortion exceptions are deemed irrelevant else the position becomes hypocritical.

Sorry, I was arguing about the fathers right to choose whether the mother can have an abortion, and in the case of rape etc. The father shouldn't. as the mother didn't have the choice to have the sex in the first place.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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What does the baby care if its father received permission from its mother before fertilizing her? If you believe a fetus is a person all the abortion exceptions are deemed irrelevant else the position becomes hypocritical.
This is true, and scary. The fetus in blameless in a rape case - yet imagine your daughter being raped, and THEN having to carry and birth the rapist's child.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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What does the baby care if its father received permission from its mother before fertilizing her? If you believe a fetus is a person all the abortion exceptions are deemed irrelevant else the position becomes hypocritical.

Disagree. I would say that the mother has no obligation to sustain a condition that was forced upon her, including pregnancy. It stems from the self-defense argument.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Disagree. I would say that the mother has no obligation to sustain a condition that was forced upon her, including pregnancy. It stems from the self-defense argument.

Can't have it both ways. 10-20% of the country, depending on the poll, is pro-life without exception b/c they believe the fetus is a human baby. Human life is not a variable depending on whether the pregnancy was planned, accidental, forced or immaculately conceived. Exceptions for rape are not logical if you believe the fetus is a baby.

Sorry baby, but your mommy doesn't want you because she's too young. Abortion = murder.
Sorry baby, but your mommy doesn't want you because daddy didn't ask permissoin. Abortion = not murder (?)

Saying you believe it's a human baby but you'll kill it anyway because pregnancy hurts the mommy's feelings is a nonsensical position, yet that's the position most pro-lifers have.

My position is logical b/c I don't see early fetal life as a human person.
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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Not quite an accurate analogy. If a woman is pregnant, I cannot kill the fetus, but the woman can choose to remove it from her body.

Then a hospital should be able to take certain people, and move them to the street where they would die?

At what point does society say "this is wrong."?


Of course you can unplug a brain dead person from a breathing tube. That's what we do with brain dead people. Brain death is the legal definition of dead even if life support keeps the body working.

Ever hear of Terri Schiavo, where there were court hearings and a long drawn out court battle?
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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Can't have it both ways. 10-20% of the country, depending on the poll, is pro-life without exception b/c they believe the fetus is a human baby. Human life is not a variable depending on whether the pregnancy was planned, accidental, forced or immaculately conceived. Exceptions for rape are not logical if you believe the fetus is a baby.

I don't see how logic fits into what is essentially a question of the definition of self defense. If you can kill someone in the act of doing something to you against your will, it follows that you can abort your baby if you had no say in the circumstances of its creation.

Sorry baby, but your mommy doesn't want you because she's too young. Abortion = murder.
Sorry baby, but your mommy doesn't want you because daddy didn't ask permissoin. Abortion = not murder (?)

Exactly. In the first case, the mother is responsible. She consented to the act. In the second, she did not, and is not responsible.

The entire basis for holding the woman responsible for her abortion is in the fact that she consented to it, with knowledge of the consequences.

Saying you believe it's a human baby but you'll kill it anyway because pregnancy hurts the mommy's feelings is a nonsensical position, yet that's the position most pro-lifers have.

Pregnancy didn't hurt mommy's feelings. It occurred without her consent.

My position is logical b/c I don't see early fetal life as a human person.

That's another question entirely. At what point do you think a human person becomes a human person?
 
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40Hands

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2004
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One of my favorite protest signs: Want republicans to care about you? Remain a fetus.