Sound card vs High-end integrated AC

[zeock9]

I plan on building a new HEDT and using my good Sennheiser headsets as a primary audio device,

so I naturally assumed that I also needed to get a dedicated sound card to get the most out of my headsets, but I also found that, from a pure spec-sheet data point of view, some of the integrated onboard sound solutions found on high-end motherboards offer an equally good, if not better, performances.

ie) SupremeFX from Asus Rampage boards offers the same quality DAC from Cirrus Logic with an amplified output of 600ohm and actually has a better SNR of 120db, as opposed to 116db SNR of a $100 Sound Blaster Z card, etc.

Does purchasing a dedicated sound card make sense at all if you are also going for a high-end MB?
Or will dedicated sound cards still produce a better sound quality/experience overall by virtue of not being on the MB itself?
(I do not game much, so any gaming related features are not a decision making factor)

Thanks guys

 

[BrightCandle]

No one seems to test the manufacturers claims, so all you can really do is go off the (usually lies) spec sheets. There are some advantages to having sound on its own card in regards to electronic interference, and indeed a lot of audiophiles today prefer to use USB external sound to further reduce the impact of electronic interference. But since you don't care about the gaming features then I doubt it matters much, ultimately the few blind trials I have seen show that people can't tell the difference, they sound very similar. For non gaming you really ought to be considering external dac instead of a sound card as the alternative.

 

[crashtech]

In what format is most of your source material?

 

[vbuggy]

What is a HEDT?

Onboard wise it's still a bit of a crapshoot but much less than it used to be.

And an add-on card certainly isn't a panacea... I've had enough internal interference experience with e.g. the supposed high-end Asus's to think "What the hell is everyone who recommends this thinking?" (though admittedly that's sitting between two GPU's... but I pulled the Essence and the onboard didn't seem to have a problem with the setup).

I'd say if you want figures, test the onboard when you build the PC first - and if you are serious about throwing figures around I would imagine you will have a test rig - and if it's acceptable, hey bonus as your purchases end there.

 

[mistersprinkles]

Soundcards are pointless now. You either use the integrated solution on your motherboard, which, these days, tends to be quite good. Or, you buy an external DAC and hook it up to your PC digitally. There are some very impressive external solutions that will destroy onboard/soundcard audio quality but they are pricey.

 

[BrightCandle]

Soundcards are pointless now. You either use the integrated solution on your motherboard, which, these days, tends to be quite good. Or, you buy an external DAC and hook it up to your PC digitally. There are some very impressive external solutions that will destroy onboard/soundcard audio quality but they are pricey.

That isn't quite true. Sound cards do provide additional features to gamers in regards to headphone 5.1 surround sound simulation that is much better done on SBX and DH than in Realtek's implementations. They also tend to come with headphone amps as well, which for those with high ohm headphones is very beneficial to the quality of the sound. But beyond that I tend to agree, its a niche product that serves only certain customers.

 

[vbuggy]

That isn't quite true. Sound cards do provide additional features to gamers in regards to headphone 5.1 surround sound simulation that is much better done on SBX and DH than in Realtek's implementations. They also tend to come with headphone amps as well, which for those with high ohm headphones is very beneficial to the quality of the sound.

I don't agree on those last points.

Surround: Sure, the Xear / etc surround implementations may be iffy, but Razer Surround for example is as good/bad depending on how you see it than the Xonar's DH implementations. DH particularly seems to be synergy critical - and that being the case, works in my experience way better on purpose built USB headsets (not analog + USB or similar) than on an add-on soundcard. Asus's DH on their flagship soundcards rank for me among the weakest surround implementations I've used recently, and that's with a giant variety of headphones from a basic Sony ZX700 to a Sennheiser HE/V90 electrostatic system.

Headphone amp: Every codec chip (onboards included) implements a headphone amp. It's just whether some manufacturers choose to tap the line out of the codec to do their own thing with it - to be able to drive a bigger voltage swing and/or more power, which isn't strictly speaking needed for the vast majority of headphones.

 

[mistersprinkles]

I don't agree on those last points.

Surround: Sure, the Xear / etc surround implementations may be iffy, but Razer Surround for example is as good/bad depending on how you see it than the Xonar's DH implementations. DH particularly seems to be synergy critical - and that being the case, works in my experience way better on purpose built USB headsets (not analog + USB or similar) than on an add-on soundcard. Asus's DH on their flagship soundcards rank for me among the weakest surround implementations I've used recently, and that's with a giant variety of headphones from a basic Sony ZX700 to a Sennheiser HE/V90 electrostatic system.

Headphone amp: Every codec chip (onboards included) implements a headphone amp. It's just whether some manufacturers choose to tap the line out of the codec to do their own thing with it - to be able to drive a bigger voltage swing and/or more power, which isn't strictly speaking needed for the vast majority of headphones.

No, all soundcards do not include a headphone amp. They have amplification circuitry to some extent but few soundcards/boards have an actual headphone amp.

 

[Cerb]

If you can readily hear noises when the GPU is changing power state, or transferring a lot of data, then your actual SnR is absolute junk, and I've found that to be the case, over the years, with internal DACs.

PSRR and CMRR matter a lot more today than frequency response. Inside a PC, they are not going to be easy to get high enough to keep the spec sheet SnR or THD, if you were to measure in a PC, doing anything on the PC. With a video card in the PC, throw it all out the window. It's not the chips, and those specs they pulled from the data sheets mean little in practice. I'm sure Realtek can, in a lab, manage their numbers, and they sound fine. A motherboard implementation as equally good, however, is likely impossible.

Just getting the analog antennas away from the inside of the PC makes the biggest difference, IME. Patterns of HF noise can causing oscillation that you can bring about audible artifacts, or actually be picked up as audio frequency noise of a lower frequency (surely you've heard GSM phones before, right?).

A Behringer UCA202, IMO, is the best PC audio value out there. Or, for your headphones, get a USB DAC/Amp combo.

 

[mindbomb]

well, there are a few practical benefits to a sound card - if you change the motherboard later or want to use it with a different computer, you can.

 

[vbuggy]

They have amplification circuitry to some extent

but few soundcards/boards have an actual headphone amp.

Read the last two bits back to yourself... and see if they actually make any sense.

Have we been visiting Head-Fi a little too often?

If you can readily hear noises when the GPU is changing power state, or transferring a lot of data, then your actual SnR is absolute junk, and I've found that to be the case, over the years, with internal DACs.

PSRR and CMRR matter a lot more today than frequency response. Inside a PC, they are not going to be easy to get high enough to keep the spec sheet SnR or THD, if you were to measure in a PC, doing anything on the PC. With a video card in the PC, throw it all out the window. It's not the chips, and those specs they pulled from the data sheets mean little in practice. I'm sure Realtek can, in a lab, manage their numbers, and they sound fine. A motherboard implementation as equally good, however, is likely impossible.

Just getting the analog antennas away from the inside of the PC makes the biggest difference, IME. Patterns of HF noise can causing oscillation that you can bring about audible artifacts, or actually be picked up as audio frequency noise of a lower frequency (surely you've heard GSM phones before, right?).

A Behringer UCA202, IMO, is the best PC audio value out there. Or, for your headphones, get a USB DAC/Amp combo.

A lot of current onboards can match a reasonable lower-end USB card like the UCA202, and many don't suffer from any significant degree of interference anymore (and as mentioned, much less than some highfalutin' PCI cards). Which is why I said to test first.

 

[crashtech]

If the OP is listening to 128 bit MP3s, this conversation is academic.

 

[Cerb]

A lot of current onboards can match a reasonable lower-end USB card like the UCA202, and many don't suffer from any significant degree of interference anymore (and as mentioned, much less than some highfalutin' PCI cards). Which is why I said to test first.

I haven't encountered those PCs, as of yet. It's all single-ended, and that makes for easy noise pickup. A pair of headphones is usually enough to hear general hash and other noises from in the PC. Speakers typically need much more voltage, and respond slower, so are less sensitive in general, save to powerful stuff like nearby video cards and GSM phones. If I try my onboard, FI, I can hear the difference between Speedsetp being on or off, and my Optiplex at work is like an old rural POTS line (but, sounds OK with speakers plugged in). A UCA202 mostly gives you several feet of USB cord, without screwing up the DAC on the end, for not much money. The codec itself isn't of much importance, so long as the power or output aren't screwed up (which the really cheap no-name USB thumb stick cards all do).

If the OP is listening to 128 bit MP3s, this conversation is academic.

True. What headset the OP has would make a difference, as well.

 

[Cerb]

...

 

[vbuggy]

If the OP is listening to 128 bit MP3s, this conversation is academic.

Well not really, bad interference can interfere with 64K MP3 listening.

 

[caden]

Read the last two bits back to yourself... and see if they actually make any sense.

Have we been visiting Head-Fi a little too often?

While maybe the terminology is a bit iffy, it's unclear what you're disputing? I may be missing something, but I think the point made is that the onboard audio circuitry on a motherboard may not provide enough "power" to drive headphones, and a sound card or "headphone amp" can provide that.

That's not not to say it will necessarily improve the sound quality, but it inarguably can make things louder than the motherboard alone.

 

[vbuggy]

While maybe the terminology is a bit iffy, it's unclear what you're disputing? I may be missing something, but I think the point made is that the onboard audio circuitry on a motherboard may not provide enough "power" to drive headphones, and a sound card or "headphone amp" can provide that.

That's not not to say it will necessarily improve the sound quality, but it inarguably can make things louder than the motherboard alone.

Again, not the case. Many codecs are perfectly capable of driving any headphone you'd reasonably consider plugging into the system to ear-bleeding levels - and yes, 'driven properly'. That is, in case you're unaware, an example of amplification.

I would ask you to define 'not having a headphone amp' since I'm not the one making an assertion like that.

 

[oynaz]

Again, not the case. Many codecs are perfectly capable of driving any headphone you'd reasonably consider plugging into the system to ear-bleeding levels - and yes, 'driven properly'. That is, in case you're unaware, an example of amplification.

I would ask you to define 'not having a headphone amp' since I'm not the one making an assertion like that.

He did define it - many high quality headphones have a high impedence in order to play loud without distorting. These need a quite powerful amp in order to work properly. And yes, many sound cards, including onboard, are not powerful enoough.

Examples:
beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro 250 Ohm
beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro 250 Ohm
Sennheiser HD 650
Sennheiser HD 26 Pro

 

[BrightCandle]

Perhaps you haven't realised it yet but these guys are trolling. They are trying desperately to start an argument without really disagreeing. Its classic trolling and its why I haven't taken the bait since its me he is sort of trying to disagree with.

Don't feed the trolls.

BrightCandle, the only person who appears to be trolling here is you. You've only made a few posts and no one seems to be trolling in their disagreements with you.
-ViRGE

 

[Cerb]

He did define it - many high quality headphones have a high impedence in order to play loud without distorting. These need a quite powerful amp in order to work properly. And yes, many sound cards, including onboard, are not powerful enoough.

Examples:
beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro 250 Ohm
beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro 250 Ohm
Sennheiser HD 650
Sennheiser HD 26 Pro

Mere 50 Ohm and 55 Ohm drivers from Sennheiser, Koss, and AKG count, too, and don't need extra voltage. They are current hogs (in a very relative sense ) needing good ground stability. With a single-ended PSU, having a good buffered ground is often needed more than anything else, which is basically unheard-of without a dedicated HP amp section (not merely a tap out from a codec). It wouldn't be expensive, but it also wouldn't make any sense, economically. If you can afford good headphones, you can afford an amp, or make one, and only Asus is able to get away with selling moos at decent profit margins..

 

[vbuggy]

Perhaps you haven't realised it yet but these guys are trolling. They are trying desperately to start an argument without really disagreeing. Its classic trolling and its why I haven't taken the bait since its me he is sort of trying to disagree with.

Don't feed the trolls.

I'm not sure who you were referring to. It seems to be a case of not actually understanding stuff, while throwing around half understood technical terms and mentioning rank outliers as the supposed norm when asked to state whether a certain thing is relevant...

... which isn't trollish per se. It's just a defensive reaction to the half-understandings when you have an ego, and who doesn't?

 

[oynaz]

Mere 50 Ohm and 55 Ohm drivers from Sennheiser, Koss, and AKG count, too, and don't need extra voltage. They are current hogs (in a very relative sense ) needing good ground stability. With a single-ended PSU, having a good buffered ground is often needed more than anything else, which is basically unheard-of without a dedicated HP amp section (not merely a tap out from a codec). It wouldn't be expensive, but it also wouldn't make any sense, economically. If you can afford good headphones, you can afford an amp, or make one, and only Asus is able to get away with selling moos at decent profit margins..

Fair points.

 

[Watsy 1958]

I had a chance to compare two of the very same sound systems only difference was his motherboard was the Asus Rampage the kick butt board and mine the Asus Sabertooth he was using onboard sound and i the Asus Xonar Essense STX II sound card the latest card out. So if you ever get a chance to listen to both then all your questions will be answered. Over all onboard sound is crap my friend and i gave the onboard sound a nik name we now call it the snap crackle pop sound system,the sound card beats the onboard all away around from loudness, sound quality and bass. Not to offend anyone but the onboard sound on any motherboard is just a joke

 

[funboy6942]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFBvvlebSmw

 

[crashtech]

I wouldn't assume all onboard sound is created equal.