Sorry, Folks, Rich People Don't Create The Jobs

[QuantumPion]

Dave's is a rather simple, logic-free point, but he is correct at the core in that our system is not sustainable in the long run. The fewer people earning a decent salary, the fewer potential customers, which leads to fewer employees, which is fewer people earning a decent salary, rinse and repeat.

Not true at all. As China gets richer due to industrialization, they will become less competitive source of cheap labor. At the same time they will use their money to start buying more American goods. Eventually an equilibrium will be reached and cheap labor will be found somewhere else. The situation is almost exactly the same as with Japan in the 60's and 70's.

 

[Newell Steamer]

I think you may be right. Obama is hell bent on importing a ton more laborers that will work for cheap. Maybe he's thinking that if we bring in enough slaves from Mexico the white man won't have to work at all anymore.

Tsk, tsk. Those are future voters, silly rabbit!

Also, added bonuses;
* more people to steal from the wealthy white man (in social program give aways)
* an increased number of home invaders (home invaders invading white homes of course)
* further watering down the white gene pool (white women love them ethnics!),.. because mullets, overbites and cross eyes aren't enough to release the hold of this country from the white man

 

[realibrad]

lol +1

Dave's is a rather simple, logic-free point, but he is correct at the core in that our system is not sustainable in the long run. The fewer people earning a decent salary, the fewer potential customers, which leads to fewer employees, which is fewer people earning a decent salary, rinse and repeat. Government redistribution (whether by confiscatory tax rates or via borrowing) can help slow down this reckoning, but ultimately cannot halt its progress. And our unrestrained immigration (especially illegals who have fewer protections and viable job skills) greatly accelerate this process.


lol +1 also

I actually meant my post to be sarcasm, because in the long run, things will even out. People see China having stole our good jobs, and that we need to fight to get them back. The reality is that those jobs are not what we think they are. Those jobs would have died a long time ago in the US, as individual productivity increased to the point where a combination of automation and skilled technician can do the same job as 100 people before him, at 1/1000 the cost. The only reason the jobs are still in China, is because standard of living is so low, that they command very little in wages. But, even now there is pressure on those jobs in China. We now have robots that can be trained for around 22k. That is a large one time expense, and the cost of maintaining the machines is far lower than a yearly wage to a human.

As goods/services get cheaper, people need less to purchase them. We now live in a world where things are so easy to come by, that most lower income workers are taking the hit relative to GDP because its a good enough life. Population is growing at a rate that causes competition among laborers, so that they are competing for the wages. If people want life to go back to the good ole days, it would mean being less productive, and having less in your life.

Anyone here who reads this and is over 40, ask yourself the following. As a kid, did you have as much stuff as kids of today have? I would bet the vast majority would say no, that the kids of today have far more crap then they ever had. So, even though income relative to things like GDP and buying power are said to be lower, we have far more things. So the poor of today are better off than the poor of the past.

 

[fleshconsumed]

I actually meant my post to be sarcasm, because in the long run, things will even out. People see China having stole our good jobs, and that we need to fight to get them back. The reality is that those jobs are not what we think they are. Those jobs would have died a long time ago in the US, as individual productivity increased to the point where a combination of automation and skilled technician can do the same job as 100 people before him, at 1/1000 the cost. The only reason the jobs are still in China, is because standard of living is so low, that they command very little in wages. But, even now there is pressure on those jobs in China. We now have robots that can be trained for around 22k. That is a large one time expense, and the cost of maintaining the machines is far lower than a yearly wage to a human.

Except when China "stole" our jobs (it didn't really, we gave them to China on our own), it also ensured that any robots or machines or automation used to make products are going to be made and maintaned over there. We didn't just lose the low skilled assembly/manufacturing force, we also lost all the engineering jobs required to design, make, operate, and maintain all the automation tools that are now building our things.

For example we have corning gorilla glass being made over here in the US. There are engineers who design it, possibly even design machines to make it, then operate and maintain those machines. It's not nothing, it's all labor, skilled labor. We might have lost low skilled jobs due to automation, but we gained back some jobs that are required to design, make, operate and maintain that automation.

When we moved our manufacturing base to China, we lost more than just low skilled labor, we lost all of the skilled jobs required to design and maintain that production, along with all the knowledge on how to make that happen.

 

[Zebo]

I think you may be right. Obama is hell bent on importing a ton more laborers that will work for cheap. Maybe he's thinking that if we bring in enough slaves from Mexico the white man won't have to work at all anymore.

Immigration reform aka amnesty, job destruction, wage depression and exploding welfare costs, are demanded by both the Chamber of Commerce and industries large and small.

Not democrats. Ones that do support it probably do so because Hispanics vote 70% demo currently and see it as a way to gain permanent majority. But there is no such thing as forever so I dont worry about that.

 

[BoberFett]

Immigration reform aka amnesty, job destruction, wage depression and exploding welfare costs, are demanded by both the Chamber of Commerce and industries large and small.

Not democrats. Ones that do support it probably do so because Hispanics vote 70% demo currently and see it as a way to gain permanent majority. But there is no such thing as forever so I dont worry about that.

Democrats are the champion of the little guy, or at least in soundbites they are. The more impoverished wage-slaves they can import, the better in their eyes.

They can continue to blame Republicans for off-shoring jobs, all the while on-shoring poverty. It's a win-win for them, as long as they're pandering to an ignorant voter bloc.

 

[Fern]

Sorry, Folks, Rich People Don't Create The Jobs

-snip-

Sure they do.

Venture capitalist and Angel Investors pumped about $30 billion into new start up start companies last year. That's job creation.

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/press-releases/2014/annual-venture-investment-dollars.jhtml

America's richest entrepreneurs, investors, and companies now have so much money that they can't possibly spend it all. So instead of getting pumped back into the economy, thus creating revenue and wages, this cash just remains in investment accounts.

I think you're being unnecessarily dismissive of stock investments in investment accounts. When a company wants to expand, meaning new jobs, it will often turn to a new stock issuance to fund that expansion. Sure sometimes the stock purchase just allows another investor to liquidate his holding and has no affect on the company itself, but other times it is a direct investment in expansion and new jobs.

Starting or expanding a business requires capital and banks typically aren't interested (or permitted). Those who aren't wealthy aren't able. That kind of leaves only one option - the wealthy.

I'm not saying others can't also start new businesses and create jobs. While you may not need to be rich, you do have to have some capital even for a shoe string operation.

Fern

 

[realibrad]

Except when China "stole" our jobs (it didn't really, we gave them to China on our own), it also ensured that any robots or machines or automation used to make products are going to be made and maintaned over there. We didn't just lose the low skilled assembly/manufacturing force, we also lost all the engineering jobs required to design, make, operate, and maintain all the automation tools that are now building our things.

For example we have corning gorilla glass being made over here in the US. There are engineers who design it, possibly even design machines to make it, then operate and maintain those machines. It's not nothing, it's all labor, skilled labor. We might have lost low skilled jobs due to automation, but we gained back some jobs that are required to design, make, operate and maintain that automation.

When we moved our manufacturing base to China, we lost more than just low skilled labor, we lost all of the skilled jobs required to design and maintain that production, along with all the knowledge on how to make that happen.

So then what you are saying is that China is now starting to mechanize the low skilled labor, and are having a few skilled people maintain the equipment. So, their high skilled labor is cheaper than our high skilled labor on the market, yet the US should somehow get those jobs. If a high skilled technician in China is willing to make 25k a year, how could the US ever hope to do that work here for 60+k a year? Those jobs stay there, because the people are doing what is in their self interest.

Unless the US worker becomes more productive where they can produce more at a lower unit cost, or they ask for less money, those jobs will not come back, and neither will the externality jobs. That has nothing to do with politics. The reality of the job market is that there are 2 people for 1 position, the person who wins is the person who brings the most value for the least amount of cost. If I demand 50k and another offers to do the same work at the same skill but only ask for 49k, the other person wins.

 

[BoberFett]

So then what you are saying is that China is now starting to mechanize the low skilled labor, and are having a few skilled people maintain the equipment. So, their high skilled labor is cheaper than our high skilled labor on the market, yet the US should somehow get those jobs. If a high skilled technician in China is willing to make 25k a year, how could the US ever hope to do that work here for 60+k a year? Those jobs stay there, because the people are doing what is in their self interest.

Unless the US worker becomes more productive where they can produce more at a lower unit cost, or they ask for less money, those jobs will not come back, and neither will the externality jobs. That has nothing to do with politics. The reality of the job market is that there are 2 people for 1 position, the person who wins is the person who brings the most value for the least amount of cost. If I demand 50k and another offers to do the same work at the same skill but only ask for 49k, the other person wins.

People shouldn't have to do that. Competition is for when I want something from a company. They need to compete to give me the best product at the lowest price possible, but that same company needs to hire me at whatever wage I tell them is fair.

Why do you hate America?

 

[glenn1]

Sure they do.

Venture capitalist and Angel Investors pumped about $30 billion into new start up start companies last year. That's job creation.

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/press-releases/2014/annual-venture-investment-dollars.jhtml



I think you're being unnecessarily dismissive of stock investments in investment accounts. When a company wants to expand, meaning new jobs, it will often turn to a new stock issuance to fund that expansion. Sure sometimes the stock purchase just allows another investor to liquidate his holding and has no affect on the company itself, but other times it is a direct investment in expansion and new jobs.

Starting or expanding a business requires capital and banks typically aren't interested (or permitted). Those who aren't wealthy aren't able. That kind of leaves only one option - the wealthy.

I'm not saying others can't also start new businesses and create jobs. While you may not need to be rich, you do have to have some capital even for a shoe string operation.

Fern

You're wasting your time. The person you're addressing and his ilk think "the rich" are just swimming around in huge piles of gold coins they hoard instead of doing their duty to give jobs (at a "living wage" no less) to everyone regardless of what skills or value they might offer as an employee. As if there's some vast demand out there for guys like Dave whose main talent seems to be replying to his own posts and making slightly unhinged comments that make you unsure if he's the scizophrenic homeless guy talking to himself in the park, or just the grumpy old man who yells at everyone to get off his lawn.

 

[Zebo]

You have to have balance. While I never got a job from a poor guy - but a massive middle class make companies to hire people. Whether apple, wal mart or your local liquor store. Really everyone is a job creator.

 

[realibrad]

 

[glenn1]

You have to have balance. While I never got a job from a poor guy - but a massive middle class make companies to hire people. Whether apple, wal mart or your local liquor store. Really everyone is a job creator.

The balance is that companies have to provide a service people want or they go bankrupt and never to be heard from again. It's Darwinian to an extreme and very rarely are companies bailed out instead of being allowed to fail, so the ones who survive and thrive tend to be really excellent. In contrast, when workers fail in the marketplace there are (rightly) security nets in place like unemployment, welfare, etc. to ensure they can at least survive in some fashion.

Can you imagine if we treated companies the same way we treated people, and they took to message boards to complain? For every wistful complaint about how we should have more "well paying" factory jobs in the U.S. you'd have a complaint from obsolete companies like Polaroid or Blockbuster Video complaining that customers should be forced to buy its products for a "fair price" to enable them to survive.

 

[Zaap]

You have to have balance. While I never got a job from a poor guy - but a massive middle class make companies to hire people

And the middle.class.gets the money to be middle class from... where exactly?

 

[smackababy]

I am confused. If people with money don't create jobs, do people without it create them? If so, how do they pay people working those jobs? Sounds like a chicken or the egg problem.

Unless, of course, we had some way of giving money to a group of people (of any economic class) who had an idea for a product or service to sell to people. That way, they could cover the costs before they start generating income.

 

[realibrad]

And the middle.class.gets the money to be middle class from... where exactly?

Societal compensation at market value for production.

 

[Zaap]

I think you may be right. Obama is hell bent on importing a ton more laborers that will work for cheap. Maybe he's thinking that if we bring in enough slaves from Mexico the white man won't have to work at all anymore.

Yep. Special peope get to sit up on the porch sipping mint julips while their economic slaves toil the fields.

 

[Zaap]

Societal compensation at market value for production.

Sounds a bit like JOBS....

provided by.....?

 

[Zebo]

I am confused. If people with money don't create jobs, do people without it create them? If so, how do they pay people working those jobs? Sounds like a chicken or the egg problem.

Unless, of course, we had some way of giving money to a group of people (of any economic class) who had an idea for a product or service to sell to people. That way, they could cover the costs before they start generating income.

Nah the fed is chicken and egg- All money comes from the fed. Like back when I was a home builder I only had minimal cash. But was able to employ people and subcontractors because I had 2 million dollar line of credit which bank got from fed. I'd build a house pay off bank bank would pay back fed. When people would buy house from me money came from fed through bank intermediary.

 

[nehalem256]

Immigration reform aka amnesty, job destruction, wage depression and exploding welfare costs, are demanded by both the Chamber of Commerce and industries large and small.

Not democrats. Ones that do support it probably do so because Hispanics vote 70% demo currently and see it as a way to gain permanent majority. But there is no such thing as forever so I dont worry about that.

Wait a minute. Did you just argue that Democrats both do and do not support amnesty?

And a for you since it is normally liberals railing about those evil Teahadists standing in the way of immigration "reform" they are pushing.

 

[realibrad]

Sounds a bit like JOBS....

provided by.....?

Collective self interest of individuals making value judgement decisions based upon subjective desires...aka EVERYONE.

The rich are not rich because of the poor. The Poor are not poor because of the rich. The middle class is not middle class because of those above or below them. Yet, everyone is where they are because of everyone.

 

[Zaap]

All money comes from the fed.

LOL.
This is the problem of poor countries. They haven't figured this our yet. All you need to be a rich country isn't anything of actual value to offer: not skills, not ideas, not respurces and ability to extract them, not people with drive/talent/education/ambition etc...

Nope.

Just turn on the printing press and print money... piles and piles of it until you're rich! Its so easy!

 

[Zebo]

Wait a minute. Did you just argue that Democrats both do and do not support amnesty?

And a for you since it is normally liberals railing about those evil Teahadists standing in the way of immigration "reform" they are pushing.

Working ones dont. Go down to your local union hall (if you still have one) and survey. TPB do.

 

[realibrad]

LOL.
This is the problem of poor countries. They haven't figured this our yet. All you need to be a rich country isn't anything of actual value to offer: not skills, not ideas, not respurces and ability to extract them, not people with drive/talent/education/ambition etc...

Nope.

Just turn on the printing press and print money... piles and piles of it until you're rich! Its so easy!

Is the same idea for those who support things like the Minimum wage.

 

[smackababy]

Nah the fed is chicken and egg- All money comes from the fed. Like back when I was a home builder I only had minimal cash. But was able to employ people and subcontractors because I had 2 million dollar line of credit which bank got from fed. I'd build a house pay off bank bank would pay back fed. When people would buy house from me money came from fed through bank intermediary.

So, what you're saying is the government creates jobs? Better raise our tax rate so we can employ more people then!