Sorry, But It's Time to Stop Apologizing

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
I'm sorry to have to tell you this: We are apologizing too much.

Now that President Bush, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and several top officers in our armed forces have apologized for the mistreatment of Iraqis at Abu Ghraib (search) prison, it seems only fair to ask ? what is the apology for?

Don't misunderstand. There's a reason to regret what happened and make sure it doesn't occur again.

I just fear that we, as a country and society, are saying sorry with the wrong motivation. The pictures of naked prisoners tethered to leashes, contorted into human pyramids and pinioned to their cell doors are distasteful to us as we sit in our living rooms.

But what if you or I were in that prison, trying not only to guard prisoners, but extract from them information that could save a loved one's life? How heavy-handed might you become if the stakes were personal?

The soldiers and guardsmen who are accused ? not yet convicted ? of abusing their captives made some questionable decisions. They will probably pay for them with their military careers, their reputations, or in some cases, time behind bars.

It's important, though, not to judge all our servicemen and women by what happened in Abu Ghraib or to judge what happened there by the standards of behavior applied to civilian society.

More than a year after the U.S. invasion deposed Saddam Hussein, Iraq is one of the most dangerous places on earth. Nothing increases the chance of falling victim to that violence more than wearing an American military uniform ? the same garb we profess to admire as we thank our troops for keeping us free.

Should we revoke that admiration because some small fraction of our troops took license with others' dignity? It might be worthwhile to try to put ourselves in their combat boots for a moment.

As of this writing, 717 American soldiers, Marines and guardsmen have died trying to secure Iraq's freedom. The cheers with which they were met along Baghdad's streets in April 2003 have been replaced, at least on the surface, with a shower of roadside bombs, improvised explosive devices and hand grenades.

When confronted with violence, our troops react as they are taught. They kill some of their aggressors, wound some, and arrest others.

People who fall into the latter two categories are those who are incarcerated at Abu Ghraib. Many have either killed or tried to kill the comrades, friends or barracks-mates of the troops guarding them.

How gentle could you be with the killer of your best friend? Or someone who you saw cheering that crime?

On March 31, a van of American civilians traveling through Fallujah (search) was set upon by a band of Iraqi thugs. They were there to help the country to its feet.

In gratitude for that work, their vehicle was set on fire, they were dragged from it and hacked to pieces, and their bodies were dragged through the streets and strung from a bridge.

Many TV networks, including Fox News, deemed the pictures too shocking to air. Fox also heavily censored a videotape of torture sessions carried out by Saddam's regime.

In retrospect, that may have been a mistake. Without showing the charred bodies of Americans dangling in ignominy, or the lopped off-arms of justice Saddam-style, how can we judge the pictures we are now clucking over?

Was one worse than the other? Where was the outrage, after Fallujah, from members of Congress and other self-appointed mullahs of morality? Do we expect American soldiers to be morally superior to the people who are trying to kill them, and at the same time win a war in which there are no rules of conduct for one side? Does that somehow smack of ... racism?

Americans are living in a split-screen world of war and wealth. Since 9/11, we have conducted our lives with the nervous knowledge that we can be reached, injured and killed by fanatics who do not know us but wish us dead. For some months now, the reality of terrorism has been seen in other places: Bali, Madrid and day after day after day, Iraq.

Meanwhile, millions tut-tut over the exposed breast of an entertainer on the 50-yard line, willing themselves to ignore the amputated limbs and splattered brain matter of men and women in our nation's service.

Others fret as gasoline prices near 50 percent of what they are in Europe. Fans cry real tears because a sitcom is ending. We shriek with indignation that Iraqi suspects are humiliated, but forget the specter of Fallujah.

We can't have it both ways, I'm sorry to say. See? I'm getting the hang of this apology thing. It's a pity, isn't it?

Text
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Wow...apologizing for the apologists?!?!


When will these Bush-God fanboys realize the difference in what happened in Fallujah with what happened at Abu Ghraib?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I have news for you, but just about everyone has the tendency to become cruel and sadistic if they are servicemen or not. There are well documented studies on this fact regarding prisoner treatment by guards. Thats why this never should have happened, because it was know that it WOULD HAPPEN. That does not excuse what they did, but when the conditions are set up by people who ought to know better, there is not enough apologies in the world for it.

What I have not seen yet is the statement that it isn't the apples that are rotten, but the barrel. Heard this the other day by the researcher who led the definitive study on human behavior regarding guard and prisoner behavior. BTW, that study was done in the 70's and is established fact.

Whoever decided that this prison should be set up this way is the one who should go to trial. I want to know who that was.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
GWB et al are apologizing because with the torture of Iraqis the US has loss all moral justification for the invasioin.
The US invaded Iraq because:

1. It had WMDs.
2. It was a threat to the US.
3. It had killed it's people.
4. It had tortured it's people.
5. It was connected to al Qaida and the 9/11 attack.

1. No WMDs hace been found.
2. Iraq was not a threat to the US.
3. How many Iraqis has the US killed during the current invasion?
4. THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEOS OF THE US TORTURING IRAQI PRISONERS. IRAQIS HAVE DIED IN US CUSTODY.
5. There is no evidence of Iraq having anything to do with al-Qaida and the 9/11/01 attack.

Forum members have said that the US's invasion of Iraq was justified because Saddam was a terrible person. But the US has done and is doing horrible things to the Iraqis.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Coming From the Person Who has Tried to Downplay this whole incident from the beggining, Or Shall we go back to your Origional thread Where you tried to paint it as Not torture. Granted you have updated your thread, but since the latest news, You really didnt have a choice.


Stop constantly distracting and downplaying while acting out Your Apologetic ways
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
20,228
7,352
136
But what if you or I were in that prison, trying not only to guard prisoners, but extract from them information that could save a loved one's life? How heavy-handed might you become if the stakes were personal?
It's a grave fault that the prison is not runned by the rules. Those responsible for that have the final responsibility for what was going on. I think that these pictures will do more ham to US troops than if the prison had been run by the rules and no torture had been taking place. You have to think of the long term consequences not just is going on ATM.


As of this writing, 717 American soldiers, Marines and guardsmen have died trying to secure Iraq's freedom. The cheers with which they were met along Baghdad's streets in April 2003 have been replaced, at least on the surface, with a shower of roadside bombs, improvised explosive devices and hand grenades.

And it would be eaiser if all just rolled over like we were told they would before the war. I guess that somebody made a VERY serious mistake on how the post-war scenario would be.

How gentle could you be with the killer of your best friend? Or someone who you saw cheering that crime?

A professionel soldier would treat him by the rules, not letting his emotions rule. (Theoretically of course)



Was one worse than the other? Where was the outrage, after Fallujah, from members of Congress and other self-appointed mullahs of morality? Do we expect American soldiers to be morally superior to the people who are trying to kill them, and at the same time win a war in which there are no rules of conduct for one side? Does that somehow smack of ... racism?

I would expect American soldiers to be morally superior, otherwise they would be no better than those who try to kill them.


Every time something is done that angers the arab people you will create more enemies/terrorists, wether it's done with the best intensions. Sometimes you will need to take decisions that angers some and you have to weight your gains and your losses. So you have to ask yourself does torturing Iraqi prisoners give you more than you loose?

As far as I can see:

Gain:
Possible Information, beeing able to save an unaccounted number of life

Loss:
Angerering the Arab world and probably rendering more terrorists going into Iraq
Angering the Iraqi people making them less helpfull
Lowering your standards to Saddams
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
682
0
0
conjur et al.,

They keep bringing Fallujah up as being related, but don't seem to really see the ways in which it may well be. The investigation into abuses at this prison go back at least to the end of last year, making it likely that abuses of the kind that we've seen and heard about have been going on at least a little longer than that... not only at Abu Ghraib, but almost certainly elsewhere. Can we agree on that much?

So if you were an Iraqi and were not going by Fox News or CNN or MSNBC telling you that the soldiers who recently invaded your country and occupied it were there to liberate you... but rather, you're going by what you've seen and what you've heard about happening to other Iraqis... how do you react to them? If you know someone who knows someone (remember, not all countries are the size of the US) who was beaten or tortured or raped or a combination of the above and more by the fellow soldiers and/or mercenaries (oh sorry... "contractors") you now find yourself facing, do you whip out the flowers and kick up the music, as Donald Rumsfeld claimed to have expected?

If you are on a battlefield, facing an enemy such as you've heard described... if you know that your being captured may well lead to your being raped, humiliated, and tortured both physically and psychologically... do you hoist up the white flag or fight with every ounce of your being? And if you've managed to put off your death for another hour or another day by fighting off one such occupier, do you then hold a solemn service for the fallen among your enemy, as you very likely would in more peaceful times; or do you burn with the rage of Achilles and drag Hector's corpse around the walls of Troy... driven not by evil; but by the rage and sorrow and grief that swelled up when a beloved friend had been killed, his body desecrated at the hands of Hector and his men?

I've seen post after post, over the past year and some, that have explained/excused firing on civilians as being part and parcel of the war effort because of the stress involved in warfare. So why, then, do we see this war as having no such stress and no such effects on the people being occupied? Why do we barely even acknowledge enemy, or even civilian, casualties... but then cry foul and act indignant when a soldier is killed? Yes, they are our sons and daughters, our brothers and sisters, and we should feel for each of them who have given their lives for their country. But does this spirit of brotherhood and kinship with our fellow countryman and woman work to the exclusion of everyone else? Have all of you who've expressed such remorse at the deaths of the brave soldiers wept one single tear, felt any sense of loss or remorse, for any of the Iraqi dead? Have you, even acknowledging your belief that the war has been intended for their good, paused and felt any concern or consideration for their wives and children, their fathers and mothers, their brothers and sisters? Or have you succeeded in completely dehumanizing "the enemy" so well as to no longer contextualize their deaths, their feelings, and their losses as in any way resembling your own? Have you, put simply, learned to just file them away as being "acceptable losses?"

War, unfortunately, is sometimes necessary. It is something that no matter much we try to avoid it, we occasionally will find ourselves pulled into it by those who would leave us no other reasonable choice. But it should never be easy, and none of its losses should ever be seen as "acceptable." To accept them means we're doomed to always fail in trying to avoid them. Only when we can weep for our "enemies" (though who those are in this supposed war of liberation is anyone's guess) as we weep for our own will we ever be able to say that we've fought a "just war."

cumhail


Originally posted by: conjur
Wow...apologizing for the apologists?!?!


When will these Bush-God fanboys realize the difference in what happened in Fallujah with what happened at Abu Ghraib?
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
81
So the author is trying to make a point that we shouldnt apologize for the events that happened because the "enemy" is using similar methods and hence it's acceptable for our military to do the same?

Thats the most backwards idea i have yet to hear concerning Iraq. Not only that defies the point of us being there, it makes US no better than Iraqs previous regime. We do expect American soldiers to be morally superior over the savages that drag dead bodies in the streets and hang them from bridges; and they have to be AND WILL be morally superior, otherwise we've lost the war right then
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Do we expect American soldiers to be morally superior to the people who are trying to kill them, and at the same time win a war in which there are no rules of conduct for one side? Does that somehow smack of ... racism?
Oooh. Neocons got a race card in every deck :D
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
The reason the contractors did not receive anywhere near the attention was because you couldn't really do much beyond what we've already done/doing.

What are we supposed to do? Invade their country? Pursue, arrest or kill their leaders? Occupy their country?

We are there to ameliorate Iraq and bring it into the 21st century. As Americans, like many others have said, we hold ourselves to higher standards than those who attacked those contractors. If we do not hold ourselves accountable for what we do, we are not justifying anything that we're doing. Also, no one is accusing all the soldiers of doing what the savages at Abu Ghraib did. It was, at least from what we currently know, a very small number of soldiers out of thousands. To assume that those of us who are critical of that prison are trying to denigrate the soldiers is foolish.

Remember, the saying is a means to an end. The end may be great, but the means is what gets you there.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,766
615
126
Hmmm...I assumed the body of the OP would consist of "And start nuking" or "Kill them all".
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
But what if you or I were in that prison, trying not only to guard prisoners, but extract from them information that could save a loved one's life? How heavy-handed might you become if the stakes were personal?



Redundant partisan threads should be locked.

Again, where does sodomy fall under "heavy-handed"? And why should an invading nation unwelcome in that part of the world, not apologize in the form of actions and reparationsfor a gross misuse of power?

You're a tool.
 

InfectedMushroom

Golden Member
Aug 15, 2001
1,064
0
0
nice post cumhail.

i'm quoting it in hopes more people read it.


Originally posted by: cumhail
conjur et al.,

They keep bringing Fallujah up as being related, but don't seem to really see the ways in which it may well be. The investigation into abuses at this prison go back at least to the end of last year, making it likely that abuses of the kind that we've seen and hard about have been going on at least a little longer than that... not only at Abu Ghraib, but almost certainly elsewhere. Can we agree on that much?

So if you were an Iraqi and were not going by Fox News or CNN or MSNBC telling you that the soldiers who recently invaded your country and occupied it were there to liberate you... but rather, you're going by what you've seen and what you've heard about happening to other Iraqis... how do you react to them? If you know someone who knows someone (remember, not all countries are the size of the US) who was beaten or tortured or raped or a combination of the above and more by the fellow soldiers and/or mercenaries (oh sorry... "contractors") you now find yourself facing, do you whip out the flowers and kick up the music, as Donald Rumsfeld claimed to have expected?

If you are on a battlefield, facing an enemy such as you've heard described... if you know that your being captured may well lead to your being raped, humiliated, and tortured both physically and psychologically... do you hoist up the white flag or fight with every ounce of your being? And if you've managed to put off your death for another hour or another day by fighting off one such occupier, do you then hold a solemn service for the fall among your enemy, as you very likely would in more peaceful times. Or do you burn with the rage of Achilles and drag Hector's corpse around the walls of Troy... driven not by evil, by the rage and sorrow and grief that swelled up when your beloved friend was killed and desecrated at the hands of Hector and his men?

I've seen post after post, over the past year and some, that have explained/excused firing on civilians as being part and parcel of the war effort because of the stress involved in warfare. So why, then, do we see this war as having no such stress and no such effects on the people being occupied? Why do we barely even acknowledge enemy, or even civilian, casualties... but then cry foul and act indignant when a soldier is killed? Yes, they are our sons and daughters, our brothers and sisters, and we should feel for each of them who have given their lives for their country. But does this spirit of brotherhood and kinship with our fellow man and woman work to the exclusion of everyone else? Have all of you who've expressed such remorse at the deaths of the brave soldiers wept one single tear, felt any sense of loss or remorse, for any of the Iraqi dead? Have you, even acknowledging your belief that the war has been intended for their good, paused and felt any concern or consideration for their wives and children, their fathers and mothers, their brothers and sisters? Or have you succeeded in completely dehumanizing "the enemy" so well as to no longer contextualize their deaths, their feelings, and their losses as in any way resembling your own? Have you learned to just file them away as being "acceptable losses?"

War, unfortunately, is sometimes necessary. It is something that no matter much we try to avoid it, we occasionally will find ourselves pulled into it by those who would leave us no other reasonable choice. But it should never be easy, and none of its losses should ever be seen as "acceptable." To accept them means we're doomed to always fail in trying to avoid them. Only when we can weep for our "enemies" (though who those are in this supposed war of liberation is anyone's guess) as we weep for our own will we ever be able to say that we've fought a "just war."

cumhail


Originally posted by: conjur
Wow...apologizing for the apologists?!?!


When will these Bush-God fanboys realize the difference in what happened in Fallujah with what happened at Abu Ghraib?
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
GWB et al are apologizing because with the torture of Iraqis the US has loss all moral justification for the invasioin.
The US invaded Iraq because:

1. It had WMDs.
2. It was a threat to the US.
3. It had killed it's people.
4. It had tortured it's people.
5. It was connected to al Qaida and the 9/11 attack.

1. No WMDs hace been found.
2. Iraq was not a threat to the US.
3. How many Iraqis has the US killed during the current invasion?
4. THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEOS OF THE US TORTURING IRAQI PRISONERS. IRAQIS HAVE DIED IN US CUSTODY.
5. There is no evidence of Iraq having anything to do with al-Qaida and the 9/11/01 attack.

Forum members have said that the US's invasion of Iraq was justified because Saddam was a terrible person. But the US has done and is doing horrible things to the Iraqis.


1. You would be naive to assume that Saddam actually got rid of them, the real question is where are they.
2. Not a direct threat, but Saddam could have been a supplier of WMDs to terrorist orginizations thus becoming an indirect threat
3. Civilians or enemy combatants?
4. I wouldnt call what we are seeing torture. I would call it humiliating, but saying that mimicked sodomy or threatining with a gun or the electric diodes hooked up to different body parts is torture is really soft. Those are techniques designed to break the spirit of a prisoner and get him to spill his guts, they're scare tactics and thats ok. However, if the gun were fired and an Iraqi killed, or the Iraqi was put through shock torture, that would be unaccaptable
5. While there may not be any evidence that Saddam was connected to al Queda, the President said we shall hunt down and destroy [or something to that effect] all the terrorist orginizations and the countries that aid and abet them. So, therefore, i've always held this point as moot.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
GWB et al are apologizing because with the torture of Iraqis the US has loss all moral justification for the invasioin.
The US invaded Iraq because:

1. It had WMDs.
2. It was a threat to the US.
3. It had killed it's people.
4. It had tortured it's people.
5. It was connected to al Qaida and the 9/11 attack.

1. No WMDs hace been found.
2. Iraq was not a threat to the US.
3. How many Iraqis has the US killed during the current invasion?
4. THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEOS OF THE US TORTURING IRAQI PRISONERS. IRAQIS HAVE DIED IN US CUSTODY.
5. There is no evidence of Iraq having anything to do with al-Qaida and the 9/11/01 attack.

Forum members have said that the US's invasion of Iraq was justified because Saddam was a terrible person. But the US has done and is doing horrible things to the Iraqis.


1. You would be naive to assume that Saddam actually got rid of them, the real question is where are they.
2. Not a direct threat, but Saddam could have been a supplier of WMDs to terrorist orginizations thus becoming an indirect threat
3. Civilians or enemy combatants?
4. I wouldnt call what we are seeing torture. I would call it humiliating, but saying that mimicked sodomy or threatining with a gun or the electric diodes hooked up to different body parts is torture is really soft. Those are techniques designed to break the spirit of a prisoner and get him to spill his guts, they're scare tactics and thats ok. However, if the gun were fired and an Iraqi killed, or the Iraqi was put through shock torture, that would be unaccaptable
5. While there may not be any evidence that Saddam was connected to al Queda, the President said we shall hunt down and destroy [or something to that effect] all the terrorist orginizations and the countries that aid and abet them. So, therefore, i've always held this point as moot.
1. No assumption needed. There is evidence that Saddam destroyed some WMDs...just not absolute proof that it was all destroyed. However, after a year of searching (hundreds of people searching) and investigating, not one single WMD has been found.

2. "could have been"? LOL! You're reaching now.

3. Civilians. We've managed to kill both, though. Thousands and thousands of each.

4. Oh, MURDER, SODOMY (with broomsticks, glow sticks), RAPE is not torture? Urinating on them is not torture? Torture is not just putting someone on the rack. Torture is not purely the infliction of great pain.

5. :roll: Saddam was not a threat.
 

SmokeRngs

Member
Apr 30, 2004
80
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
GWB et al are apologizing because with the torture of Iraqis the US has loss all moral justification for the invasioin.
The US invaded Iraq because:

1. It had WMDs.
2. It was a threat to the US.
3. It had killed it's people.
4. It had tortured it's people.
5. It was connected to al Qaida and the 9/11 attack.

1. No WMDs hace been found.
2. Iraq was not a threat to the US.
3. How many Iraqis has the US killed during the current invasion?
4. THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEOS OF THE US TORTURING IRAQI PRISONERS. IRAQIS HAVE DIED IN US CUSTODY.
5. There is no evidence of Iraq having anything to do with al-Qaida and the 9/11/01 attack.

Forum members have said that the US's invasion of Iraq was justified because Saddam was a terrible person. But the US has done and is doing horrible things to the Iraqis.


1. You would be naive to assume that Saddam actually got rid of them, the real question is where are they.
2. Not a direct threat, but Saddam could have been a supplier of WMDs to terrorist orginizations thus becoming an indirect threat
3. Civilians or enemy combatants?
4. I wouldnt call what we are seeing torture. I would call it humiliating, but saying that mimicked sodomy or threatining with a gun or the electric diodes hooked up to different body parts is torture is really soft. Those are techniques designed to break the spirit of a prisoner and get him to spill his guts, they're scare tactics and thats ok. However, if the gun were fired and an Iraqi killed, or the Iraqi was put through shock torture, that would be unaccaptable
5. While there may not be any evidence that Saddam was connected to al Queda, the President said we shall hunt down and destroy [or something to that effect] all the terrorist orginizations and the countries that aid and abet them. So, therefore, i've always held this point as moot.
1. No assumption needed. There is evidence that Saddam destroyed some WMDs...just not absolute proof that it was all destroyed. However, after a year of searching (hundreds of people searching) and investigating, not one single WMD has been found.

2. "could have been"? LOL! You're reaching now.

3. Civilians. We've managed to kill both, though. Thousands and thousands of each.

4. Oh, MURDER, SODOMY (with broomsticks, glow sticks), RAPE is not torture? Urinating on them is not torture? Torture is not just putting someone on the rack. Torture is not purely the infliction of great pain.

5. :roll: Saddam was not a threat.


1. Where is the proof that everything Saddam had was destroyed? There is no proof of it and no reason for him to hide it. So, where is the rest of the stuff he had?

2. No, I doubt Saddam would have been able to come over personally and visit you to beat you up. But what about the missing WMDs that the inspectors did not find and have no proof that they were destroyed?

3. Yes, civillians unfortunately die in wars. If you think accidents can't happen, then I think you should have a battery of doctors look into your conditions and prescribe some sort of treatment. Unless you can prove all the civillians were maliciously killed by American solders, you do not have a leg to stand on. btw, how many of the civillians killed were by the hands of other "Iraqis" attacking US forces. Or due to the fact that other "Iraqis" fired on US troops or civillians in crowds of "Iraqi" civillians in which the US troops were threatening nothing. Your figures mean nothing considering you have no type of stats or proof to back them up.

4. This is someone's personal "assessment" of what happened. As there is no definite word on what exactly happened, how, among other relevant facts, I am not going to comment on this.

5. I think you should re-read the point you were replying to here. It seems you saw absolutely none of it and responded accordingly. It would be nice if you actually had a reply that addressed the point.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: SmokeRngs
Originally posted by: Conjur
1. No assumption needed. There is evidence that Saddam destroyed some WMDs...just not absolute proof that it was all destroyed. However, after a year of searching (hundreds of people searching) and investigating, not one single WMD has been found.

2. "could have been"? LOL! You're reaching now.

3. Civilians. We've managed to kill both, though. Thousands and thousands of each.

4. Oh, MURDER, SODOMY (with broomsticks, glow sticks), RAPE is not torture? Urinating on them is not torture? Torture is not just putting someone on the rack. Torture is not purely the infliction of great pain.

5. :roll: Saddam was not a threat.


1. Where is the proof that everything Saddam had was destroyed? There is no proof of it and no reason for him to hide it. So, where is the rest of the stuff he had?
Of course there's no proof that everything was destroyed. Your reading comprehension sucks.


2. No, I doubt Saddam would have been able to come over personally and visit you to beat you up. But what about the missing WMDs that the inspectors did not find and have no proof that they were destroyed?
There is proof that some were destroyed. Others were found during the inspections (Al Samoud II missiles) and destroyed. Just because there's no proof that the remaining WMDs were destroyed doesn't mean that they exist. Saddam would most likely have used them if he had them when we reached Baghdad. What would he have had to lose at that point?


3. Yes, civillians unfortunately die in wars. If you think accidents can't happen, then I think you should have a battery of doctors look into your conditions and prescribe some sort of treatment. Unless you can prove all the civillians were maliciously killed by American solders, you do not have a leg to stand on. btw, how many of the civillians killed were by the hands of other "Iraqis" attacking US forces. Or due to the fact that other "Iraqis" fired on US troops or civillians in crowds of "Iraqi" civillians in which the US troops were threatening nothing. Your figures mean nothing considering you have no type of stats or proof to back them up.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net


4. This is someone's personal "assessment" of what happened. As there is no definite word on what exactly happened, how, among other relevant facts, I am not going to comment on this.
Just because you haven't seen the pictures and the video yet doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are myriad reports out now from people who have seen them.


5. I think you should re-read the point you were replying to here. It seems you saw absolutely none of it and responded accordingly. It would be nice if you actually had a reply that addressed the point.
There's nothing of that point to address, really. Genesys was alluding to the fact that Saddam was terrorist threat. He wasn't.
 

AcidicFury

Golden Member
May 7, 2004
1,508
0
0
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
GWB et al are apologizing because with the torture of Iraqis the US has loss all moral justification for the invasioin.
The US invaded Iraq because:

1. It had WMDs.
2. It was a threat to the US.
3. It had killed it's people.
4. It had tortured it's people.
5. It was connected to al Qaida and the 9/11 attack.

1. No WMDs hace been found.
2. Iraq was not a threat to the US.
3. How many Iraqis has the US killed during the current invasion?
4. THERE ARE PICTURES AND VIDEOS OF THE US TORTURING IRAQI PRISONERS. IRAQIS HAVE DIED IN US CUSTODY.
5. There is no evidence of Iraq having anything to do with al-Qaida and the 9/11/01 attack.

Forum members have said that the US's invasion of Iraq was justified because Saddam was a terrible person. But the US has done and is doing horrible things to the Iraqis.

Exactly what I was going to say.