Sorry, another gun control thread

[mikeymikec]

I didn't want to de-rail the "P&N's middle name is and" thread, but I did want to respond to a point made there:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/p-ns-middle-name-is-and.2390807/page-694#post-39472918

My commentary had nothing to do with the tweet. It does have something to do with the lack of knowledge of firearms, a common theme among those who want more restrictions and laws. "Common sense" gun laws lack quite a bit of common sense.

And shooting up schools is not a part of American culture. It is reprehensible and terrible, but a statistical outlier. Part of the reason why stopping the next one becomes so much more difficult.

By the way, I'd argue that automatic weapons are very likely less deadly in most situations than semi-automatic weapons. The DOD changed manufacture of the M16 in Vietnam because of wasted ammunition and decreased accuracy. Trained shooters do not use their M4A1's on auto in combat.

Two things:

1 - You felt the need to argue a point over a technicality that you almost admit is not really relevant to the discussion in which you were participating (full auto vs semi auto), yet you made it anyway.

2 - The "statistical outlier" is such a bullshit argument. While most sensible people would argue that spending time and money on laws should at least in part be based on just how much of a difference that law is going to make, the fact of the matter is that many people consider school shootings to be sufficiently horrific and significantly worthy of such measures that it took literally ONE school massacre involving "only handguns" for the UK to ban ownership of handguns, and no school shootings have occurred in the UK since then. The ban isn't a remotely controversial topic in the UK.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dunblane-school-shootings-ban/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

On the other hand, five school shootings in May alone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
And the US has a history so long on this topic that it gets its own page, whereas the rest of the world's events are detailed on one page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

 

[compuwiz1]

Another thread was not required, except to highlight your vocals. Guns, knives, trucks, cars, or ropes do not kill people. It is the sick mind who wants to inflict death that does. When will you learn? The problem is a mental condition, not the hardware available. A discussion about weapons is futile. Those are not the problem. A hateful, motivated killer, is the problem. There will always be things that can kill people, if used the wrong way.

Lets focus on studying why people want to kill. Let's start putting blame where it really belongs...on the perpetrator. The shooter, the bomber, the truck or car driver, all had one thing in common. They had a motivated desire to inflict mass carnage.

 

[mikeymikec]

Another thread was not required, except to highlight your vocals. Guns, knives, trucks, cars, or ropes do not kill people. It is the sick mind who wants to inflict death that does. When will you learn? The problem is a mental condition, not the hardware available. A discussion about weapons is futile. Those are not the problem. A hateful, motivated killer, is the problem.

I have no need to satisfy my ego like that, so please don't bother with an ad hominem, let alone a baseless one.

As for the rest of your post, it's like you haven't even bothered to read what I wrote, unless you want to try and argue that mental illness or hateful motivated killers are phenomenons isolated to North America.

 

[compuwiz1]

I have no need to satisfy my ego like that, so please don't bother with an ad hominem, let alone a baseless one.

As for the rest of your post, it's like you haven't even bothered to read what I wrote, unless you want to try and argue that mental illness or hateful motivated killers are phenomenons isolated to North America.

How about paying attention to your own extremist killers over there. There are plenty of them, as a google search just told me. You do not live here and are trying to interject your ideas to me. No, hateful motivated killers are not isolated to North America. You have plenty of problems of your own. I just don't need to hear from people from other countries, trying to impose what they think should be our gun laws.

 

[shortylickens]

Whether its a statistical outlier or not isn't entirely relevant. People don't want their children being shot dead at school. They're gonna blame guns until we find a real solution. And since Republicans are clearly not big on mental health, its gonna keep happening forever.

 

[compuwiz1]

Whether its a statistical outlier or not isn't entirely relevant. People don't want their children being shot dead at school. They're gonna blame guns until we find a real solution. And since Republicans are clearly not big on mental health, its gonna keep happening forever.

Well, you might be right, but is anyone really interested in trying to solve the problem, other than blame the other side?

 

[DaTT]

Why not just impose background checks on people prior to obtaining a firearm? Works up here.

 

[brycejones]

Why not just impose background checks on people prior to obtaining a firearm? Works up here.

That's communism!

 

[MrSquished]

Another thread was not required, except to highlight your vocals. Guns, knives, trucks, cars, or ropes do not kill people. It is the sick mind who wants to inflict death that does. When will you learn? The problem is a mental condition, not the hardware available. A discussion about weapons is futile. Those are not the problem. A hateful, motivated killer, is the problem. There will always be things that can kill people, if used the wrong way.

Lets focus on studying why people want to kill. Let's start putting blame where it really belongs...on the perpetrator. The shooter, the bomber, the truck or car driver, all had one thing in common. They had a motivated desire to inflict mass carnage.

I think to not realize that the hardware has an effect on both the person using it and the kind of violence perpetrated is a form of mental illness. To equate guns and knives and ropes is also a form of mental illness.

Guns release chemicals in the mind when fired. They give you a rush. Read about it, it's common knowledge among the mental health community. All my friends that went to the shooting range experienced a rush from firing especially the bigger weapons. A gun makes you feel empowered. A person with a desire to hurt someone and no gun is not as empowered feeling as a person with a gun and the desire to hurt people. That gun will change that person and can easily be a part of their inspiration for their actions.

To compare guns to knives and ropes is an insult to guns, otherwise then why do you need a gun for sport and self defense? A gun is surgical, precise, removes you from the carnage enough to make it feel like more of a video game than some visceral in the gut event. Imagine killing someone with a knife, how dirty, organic, messy it s compared to the cleanliness of a gun - where you just stand and barely squeeze a trigger and you can deal death from tens of feet away. Popping holes in my target at the range was quite easy - the thought of having to run up to my targets and stab repeatedly was a far different proposition, for me, and most people. The famous guns=knives argument is such a total crock of shit that anyone who uses it should be disqualified from voting for 2 years.

You gun nuts are so nutty about your guns but refuse to acknowledge the special characteristics about guns that make them a special kind of object, but yet the only reasons you are so nutty about your guns is because deep down you know how special they are and don't want to give them up. You guys are fucked up.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

<snip>. People don't want their children being shot dead at school. <snip>.

Or in the park, movie theater, shopping mall, in fact, I'm getting the feeling people don't want their children shot dead anywhere.

 

[Thebobo]

I didn't want to de-rail the "P&N's middle name is and" thread, but I did want to respond to a point made there:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/p-ns-middle-name-is-and.2390807/page-694#post-39472918
Two things:
1 - You felt the need to argue a point over a technicality that you almost admit is not really relevant to the discussion in which you were participating (full auto vs semi auto), yet you made it anyway.

2 - The "statistical outlier" is such a bullshit argument. While most sensible people would argue that spending time and money on laws should at least in part be based on just how much of a difference that law is going to make, the fact of the matter is that many people consider school shootings to be sufficiently horrific and significantly worthy of such measures that it took literally ONE school massacre involving "only handguns" for the UK to ban ownership of handguns, and no school shootings have occurred in the UK since then. The ban isn't a remotely controversial topic in the UK.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dunblane-school-shootings-ban/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

On the other hand, five school shootings in May alone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
And the US has a history so long on this topic that it gets its own page, whereas the rest of the world's events are detailed on one page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Why not just impose background checks on people prior to obtaining a firearm? Works up here.

Because we have these folks like the ones on this forum that for every debate they make excuses like you're not an expert on what guns are and how they work so your not allowed to have an opinion or you opinion doesn't matter. Or the brilliant line of guns don't kill people kill bullshit, and they say that, look around as if well I'm smart aint I? Its the same old tired lines meanwhile more and more incident folks are terrorized and getting killed while nothing gets done.

So the solution for them is do nothing. Every thread made makes them cringe, every time there is a debate they clog it with the same bullshit. Guess what its not working and we need to try something else. I've given my suggestions before, eliminate the superfluous of guns in this country and put strict controls on owning and all purchases.

 

[fskimospy]

I find that people who argue in favor of gun ownership often have a good deal of knowledge of the operation of firearms but very little knowledge of the effects of firearm ownership.

I suspect this ignorance is willful because if they did know more they probably wouldn’t own a gun.

 

[TallBill]

I find that people who argue in favor of gun ownership often have a good deal of knowledge of the operation of firearms but very little knowledge of the effects of firearm ownership.

I suspect this ignorance is willful because if they did know more they probably wouldn’t own a gun.

I can make up facts too.

 

[brycejones]

Because we have these folks like the ones on this forum that for every debate they make excuses like you're not an expert on what guns are and how they work so your not allowed to have an opinion or you opinion doesn't matter. Or the brilliant line of guns don't kill people kill bullshit, and they say that, look around as if well I'm smart aint I? Its the same old tired lines meanwhile more and more incident folks are terrorized and getting killed while nothing gets done.

So the solution for them is do nothing. Every thread made makes them cringe, every time there is a debate they clog it with the same bullshit. Guess what its not working and we need to try something else. I've given my suggestions before, eliminate the superfluous of guns in this country and put strict controls on owning and all purchases.

But if we don't have a gun for every American we could end up living under a fascist regime that disrespects the environment, allows companies to pollute our precious bodily fluids for profit, seeks to wreck the economy, has government officials that enrich themselves at the expense of the public, disrespects the right of free speech, etc.

Guns are needed to ensure this never happens because those gun owners are ready to defend the republic.

 

[brycejones]

I can make up facts too.

No we've seen repeatedly that gun owners have a pretty piss poor grasp of math here.

 

[fskimospy]

I can make up facts too.

Haha I have no doubt you can! I suspect my statement that you have little knowledge of the effects of firearm ownership is accurate though.

 

[TallBill]

No we've seen repeatedly that gun owners have a pretty piss poor grasp of math here.

Oh. So gun owners here, with the sub set that post represent all gun owners? And you have such an advanced grasp of math that you can declare such to be true without any validation.

 

[TallBill]

Haha I have no doubt you can! I suspect my statement that you have little knowledge of the effects of firearm ownership is accurate though.

I've probably seen more dead bodies than you.

 

[fskimospy]

Regardless of what your personal position is the easiest way to see that gun owners don’t understand this is that the most commonly cited reason for gun ownership is self protection but owning a gun makes you less safe, not more.

 

[fskimospy]

I've probably seen more dead bodies than you.

Congratulations. That is irrelevant.

 

[TallBill]

Regardless of what your personal position is the easiest way to see that gun owners don’t understand this is that the most commonly cited reason for gun ownership is self protection but owning a gun makes you less safe, not more.

Eh, John Lott's work debates that quite heavily with fact and data. I haven't met a single person who wants more laws that has even read the book though.

 

[TallBill]

Congratulations. That is irrelevant.

So seeing the effects of violence doesn't qualify me as a person that's seen the effects of violence. Got it.

 

[brycejones]

Is this a subject tallbill actually claims to know something about or is this more random posting?

 

[fskimospy]

So seeing the effects of violence doesn't qualify me as a person that's seen the effects of violence. Got it.

No, seeing violence doesn’t qualify you to understand the effects of gun ownership for the average person.

Why does this even need to be explained?

 

[TallBill]

Is this a subject tallbill actually claims to know something about or is this more random posting?

No posting here is random, even if controlled by bots. I do not own a firearm but I do know quite a bit about them yes.