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Sore back/neck/wrists/fingers - what can you do?

T

TheNiceGuy

Golden Member
EDIT: Just wanted to clarify and specify: I'm particularly interested in if there is an ergonomically 'correct' way to use a computer, or at least better ways. Any optimal setup or peripherals that make it better for your body and avoid any strain. For example, chair types, posture, screen position/distance/angle, lighting, desk height relative to chair, mouse/keyboard types, avoiding repetitive motion, etc. I've only read a detailed discussion regarding optimal screen positioning and refresh rates to avoid neck and eye strain, which was very helpful. But on these others, I've only heard the occasional vague anecdote. Currently, I'm using a basic no-arms office swivel chair, and a desk I don't like much. I catch myself slouching a lot in it. I'm going to build a custom desk, thus the thread to see if there's any consensus on basic good healthy designs. Thanks!

I find whenever I do a lot of computing, particularly FPSs, I get all kinds of "digital injuries".
I've tried a few things with limited success. Move the monitor/keyboard/mouse onto the bed and use face down, but that gets sore after a while as well. I've also adjusted the monitor to the 'ideal' position to minimize neck and eye strain.
Lately, however, I find I have even less tolerance, as I use my iPhone quite a bit, which is wearing out my neck, and oddly, elbows and wrists, due to gripping with tension for hours each day in a certain fixed position.
Are there any hints or solutions I've overlooked? Any peripheral equipment that helps? Or is it just a matter of taking a week off computing or some such?
Also, anyone tried one of those weird Ikea-style chairs where you sit upright partly using your knees?
 
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Sounds like you are just over doing it. Why not limit your usage to no more than 4 hours a day? You may have let computing become an obsession.
 
Get some exercise. I'm not being facetious. The body needs regular exercise to work optimally. Just make sure the exercise is not too repetitive. IE-only using a treadmill instead of running with turns, elevation changes, uneven ground, etc.
 
Thanks guys. I updated the original post to clarify. I'm actually in very good health and very active generally. The soreness I noticed is probably due to a few factors, and the 'tense' PC games that use repetitive reflexes, and iphone motions, are just one factor. I do get rid of the soreness by taking a break for a few days on all activities that use those motions and muscles (not just the PC/iphone ones). Just thought there may be better habits as I outlined in the edit above.
Thanks again and take care
 
If you can find some countering movements, they can help. As an example, when I was playing a lot of tennis, I developed a very sore right tendon near the elbox. This was caused by excessive unidirectional stress. Got a tip from a chiropractor that worked! I put a heavy rubber band on my right fingertips and when not doing anything, I expanded against the rubber band. It worked! In a couple of weeks the pain was gone. So, look for motion or exercise that counters your repetitive actions. You are on the right track.

Repetitive unidirectional stress often leads to pain.
 
On the ergonomics front, I strongly suggest a split key keyboard. I use a MS Natural keyboard and never have wrist issues. The most common ergonomic problem I see is people who have their keyboards too high. It should be barely above your quads. Having a straight back, neck also is important.

Totally agree with corkyg on unidirectional stress. That's also why many exercise machines, if used exclusively, can actually cause injuries.
 
I don't suggest anything in particular and I think ergonomic keyboards are for the most part useless. Change up stuff often* is I think better advice. I'm tapping away, be it on a laptop or on a desktop, for a huge portion of the day - and have been for well over 20 years. The reason I don't have RSI is that I've never been in front of any one thing for a significant period of time. It helps I'm curious, so I'll just buy whatever I'm interested in - in terms of monitors, keyboards and mice, as well as different laptops. I also move around a lot so I'm computing in different positions throughout the day.

Computing day after day with exactly the same stuff year after year is, I think, the best way to get RSI - even if you're otherwise active.

*And by that, I mean change between stuff which doesn't give you obvious twinges.
 
try to get a more comforting computer chair. the one that will support a better posture or shall I say a computer chair that would require you to sit straight rather than having to curve your back. Take note of the height of your chair. Make sure that your head is directly straight to the monitor so you won';t have to duck to look at the monitor. This could prevent backaches. Hope this helps.
 
Just wanted to give a quick update. Long story, but a more balanced approach to use helped a lot. Out of desperation (I threw my back out seriously and couldn't find a decent chiropractor locally) I tried yoga of all things, and was surprised how well it worked. Different than I am used to, intense exercise and 'cracking' my back etc. This took a few days, no 'popping', but it worked and I got my mobility back, and then some.
Anyway, if you get desperate like I did, you might want to give it a try.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMqMrDLBYro
 
Hey! I don't mean to drag up an old thread but I saw this and had to respond. My job is in office furniture and ergonomics and there are actually quite a few best practices when using a computer for long periods of time.

1) What you're already doing. Get some exercise. Take regular breaks and walk around. Even consider a sit-to-stand desk (or if you have a laptop, another area besides your desk that you can stand and work/game at)

2) Display
The display should be directly in front of you around eye-level. Most laptop users are egregious violators of this. Get an external monitor or keyboard if you're at fault of this. Desktop users should figure out a way to position their monitor at eye-level.

3) Establish Reach Zones
When designing a workstation, we typically divide the space into three such zones. Why, you ask, should I position myself not to move when you just told me to move? Well, I say to you, movement when you leave your seat is natural. Most movement within your seat (to get anything outside of zone 1) is not natural and puts stresses on area's of the body that typically cause pain.

Zone 1 - Everything you need to be able to perform the task at hand. This zone is a sphere around you that you can reach without moving your body at all. Organize your workstation to have all the necessities within this zone. Corner-style or wraparound desks help if you like to have a lot of items to keep in Zone 1.

Zone 2 - This is everything you can reach without moving your seat, but while still having to move your body in your seat. e.g. I MAYBE use my phone once a day, but I need to get to it in a decent amount of time. My phone, power outlets, etc, are all in Zone 2

Zone 3 - Everything in your workstation that you would need to move/leave your seat to get. Storage, etc. Pretty self explanatory.

4) Devices
Keyboard, mouse, and peripherals should be comfortably accessible without bending your elbows at an acute angle. Ergonomics keyboards and mice are not gimmicks, they really work.

5) The Chair
Oh boy oh boy. This deserves its own post. This reply is too long anyway, but seriously, a high-quality chair is worth every penny for someone who spends an extended period (2+ hours at a time) on their computer. Do you sit forward? Recline? That will determine some specific features of a chair. Regardless of those, There are some basic features that EVERY chair should have:

A) An ACTIVE and highly adjustable lumbar. That means a lumbar device where both the position and amount of force applied by the lumbar is adjustable.

B) Enough height-adjustability for someone your size (I have no idea how tall you are) to rest their feet comfortably on the floor without an acute angle. If your chair doesn't allow that, a footrest that allows you to comfortable stretch out underneath your desk without placing a lot of pressure on your heels is a good idea.

C) Easily adjustable(height, width, depth) and comfortable arms.

D) A seat that hasn't, and won't, wear out. If you're chair is in good shape but the seat pad is destroyed and you're using a couch-cushion on it, it's time to get another. Look specifically for warranties that cover seat pads (and even more specifically, companies that meet high-levels of wear testing like BIFMA).


I'm happy to answer and questions you might have. High-end chairs are a crazy and complicated word. Full of BS marketing, too.

Hope this helps.
 
Chairmeleon said:
Hey! I don't mean to drag up an old thread but I saw this and had to respond. My job is in office furniture and ergonomics and there are actually quite a few best practices when using a computer for long periods of time.

1) What you're already doing. Get some exercise. Take regular breaks and walk around. Even consider a sit-to-stand desk (or if you have a laptop, another area besides your desk that you can stand and work/game at)

2) Display
The display should be directly in front of you around eye-level. Most laptop users are egregious violators of this. Get an external monitor or keyboard if you're at fault of this. Desktop users should figure out a way to position their monitor at eye-level.

3) Establish Reach Zones
When designing a workstation, we typically divide the space into three such zones. Why, you ask, should I position myself not to move when you just told me to move? Well, I say to you, movement when you leave your seat is natural. Most movement within your seat (to get anything outside of zone 1) is not natural and puts stresses on area's of the body that typically cause pain.

Zone 1 - Everything you need to be able to perform the task at hand. This zone is a sphere around you that you can reach without moving your body at all. Organize your workstation to have all the necessities within this zone. Corner-style or wraparound desks help if you like to have a lot of items to keep in Zone 1.

Zone 2 - This is everything you can reach without moving your seat, but while still having to move your body in your seat. e.g. I MAYBE use my phone once a day, but I need to get to it in a decent amount of time. My phone, power outlets, etc, are all in Zone 2

Zone 3 - Everything in your workstation that you would need to move/leave your seat to get. Storage, etc. Pretty self explanatory.

4) Devices
Keyboard, mouse, and peripherals should be comfortably accessible without bending your elbows at an acute angle. Ergonomics keyboards and mice are not gimmicks, they really work.

5) The Chair
Oh boy oh boy. This deserves its own post. This reply is too long anyway, but seriously, a high-quality chair is worth every penny for someone who spends an extended period (2+ hours at a time) on their computer. Do you sit forward? Recline? That will determine some specific features of a chair. Regardless of those, There are some basic features that EVERY chair should have:

A) An ACTIVE and highly adjustable lumbar. That means a lumbar device where both the position and amount of force applied by the lumbar is adjustable.

B) Enough height-adjustability for someone your size (I have no idea how tall you are) to rest their feet comfortably on the floor without an acute angle. If your chair doesn't allow that, a footrest that allows you to comfortable stretch out underneath your desk without placing a lot of pressure on your heels is a good idea.

C) Easily adjustable(height, width, depth) and comfortable arms.

D) A seat that hasn't, and won't, wear out. If you're chair is in good shape but the seat pad is destroyed and you're using a couch-cushion on it, it's time to get another. Look specifically for warranties that cover seat pads (and even more specifically, companies that meet high-levels of wear testing like BIFMA).


I'm happy to answer and questions you might have. High-end chairs are a crazy and complicated word. Full of BS marketing, too.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

What do you think of the new Steelcase Gesture that is supposed to be released in the Fall?

It seems like a seriously comfortable chair but unlike most $1000+ chairs it promotes bad posture.

I am conflicted between waiting for the gesture or just going with a leap (I am not a fan of Herman Miller, feels like I'm paying for the "heritage" over tech).
 
Gesture is...ok. Let me explain.


It has a lot of cool features. There are 3 or 4 features that made me go "WOW" when I first sat in it. Then I sat in it for a while longer and after the initial coolness I realized that in order to achieve some of the functionality, they've had to strip it of quite a few things, and they never addressed the main problems that Leap had. The marketing and the features are very gimmicky, in my opinion. We'll see how the market reacts to it. In the end, the arms are coolest part of the chair.

That being said, It's a lot of money(List price. I don't know what their plans are for retail. If its below Leap then it got hella better.). Its all plastic. It feels cheap and its wobbly all over. It's all parts from China assembled in Mexico (if you care about that stuff). DISCLAIMER: I don't know whether the models I've seen are prototype or actual production models. That often makes a big difference.

That being said, I don't think you'd be pissed if you bought it. It looks cool and its very functional. The back is more comfortable than Leap, but doesn't have lumbar.

Herman Miller definitely carries the heritage in their price point, but because Aeron is 20 years old and has been sold at retail for longer than any others you can find them on the cheap (especially if you don't care about warranty).
Herman Miller is a fantastic company and they've earned the brand image they have. But you're right, it's (very) old tech. I love Embody, but that's because it fits my body "out-of-box". It doesn't have the adaptability to fit a very wide range of people. Don't buy the Mirra or Mirra 2. Just don't.

If I, personally, was going to buy a 1000+ chair for myself, it would come down to Herman Miller Embody, Steelcase Leap, and the Haworth Zody. I've tested them all extensively and for me nothing beats the Zody(Comfort-wise).

If fit/comfort felt the same, I'd eliminate the Leap because the lumbar isn't pressure adjustable, its only made of 30% recycled material, and its made in Asia/Mexico.

Zody is a little more sustainable than Embody (52% to 44%, if I'm remembering correctly). Both are made/assembled in the USA. Zody has more metal parts, but Embody's plastic is pretty durable. Both are BIFMA level 3, have great warranties, and will last you forever. Embody is a little firmer of a seat, Zody is a little softer. That's more preference than anything.

Links for others reading:
Zody
Embody
Gesture
Leap
 
Solid advice Chairmeleon.

I've had an ergonomics expert (their job) review my situation at two different places.

Chair:
A point that stuck out was to have the legs straight out from the chair, possibly even angled down slightly but having the feet flat on the floor without any strain below your thighs. Your legs should be resting on the floor, not on the chair, or at least not dependent on the chair (of course resting on the chair when you relax). (No less than 90* above below the knee? ) Adjust your chair first to attain the proper height.

Desk:
The desk should be adjusted after your chair. It should be at a height where your arms can either set on the armrest, or in air, at approximately 90* from your body (or was it ever so slightly down? The keyboard should be located so your arms are at about 90* and then where your reach is natural, possibly with your arms gently resting on the table. It will be centered around your hands when sitting. If you have more/less than 90* than you are reaching too far or too close.

Monitor:
One of the most striking things was to have the monitor almost straight ahead, basically if you draw a straight line on say a 27" monitor, from your eye, it should hit a couple/few inches from the top of the viewable area. The monitor should not be centered on your eye level, but the top should be a little above that point. I think they were talking about reading and the first readable line should be straight ahead of your eyes (so including all the toolbars, windows etc, e.g. word would be the first line of editable text at eye level). I believe it's centered about where when you look to the top or bottom of the screen it's so close that you shouldn't move your head (can't test now, not in front of said setup so this is just a random guess).
 
A point that stuck out was to have the legs straight out from the chair, possibly even angled down slightly but having the feet flat on the floor without any strain below your thighs. Your legs should be resting on the floor, not on the chair, or at least not dependent on the chair (of course resting on the chair when you relax). (No less than 90* above below the knee? ) Adjust your chair first to attain the proper height.
Click to expand...

This is spot on. Sorry, I should have elaborated more. The reasons are numerous, but center around pressure and bloodflow. An acute knee angle causes bad joint pressure both in the legs as well as in pelvic area. Alternatively, if the angle is too obtuse, there is undue pressure on the back of your legs, which causes some really nasty bloodflow problems. Along with this, we've found 20-30% of people sit forward in their chairs, both cutting off bloodflow and placing a lot of weight on their legs for a long period. Those who sit forward should look for a chair with "true" forward-tilt. Forward tilt angles the seat-pan downward, a "true" forward-tilt will angle the whole chair forward (the back and the seat-pan), which allows you to sit at the forward angle, but still be back in your seat and supported by back. If the back doesn't come with you, you'll feel like you're falling out of the chair and you'll have to support yourself with your legs as long as you're seated. A few inches of sliding adjustment in the seat-pan is also very helpful .

Desk:
The desk should be adjusted after your chair. It should be at a height where your arms can either set on the armrest, or in air, at approximately 90* from your body (or was it ever so slightly down? The keyboard should be located so your arms are at about 90* and then where your reach is natural, possibly with your arms gently resting on the table. It will be centered around your hands when sitting. If you have more/less than 90* than you are reaching too far or too close.
Click to expand...

Correct again, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a desk adjustment. You can achieve the same things with ergonomic accessories like keyboard trays, mouse trays, etc. Anything that will put you in the right position. As far as arm angle, as long as it's not acute, you're fine. Optimal is angled slightly down. Reaching is bad no matter the angle.
 
An exercise I've found relieves a lot of tension and stiffness in my wrists is to hold my wrist up vertically and rotate my hand in a circle with some real force behind it (helicopter style). Doing this for a few minutes at a time seems to relieve what could otherwise be perceived as the possible onset of carpal tunnel pain.

I do this every few hours (or more, if needed) whenever I'm at the keyboard for a long time.

Hope that helps. 😎
 
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Embody is some space age stuff, I remember looking at it but the $1600 price tag scared me off. It seems like they brought it down a bit but its still 50% more than its competitors.

I'm surprised about the leap as I have only seen good reviews.

The gesture looks interesting because I want a ergonomic chair that doesn't punish me for lounging when I'm not working or in the "correct" position.

The Zody looks similar to the leap but I have never heard of it. Seems like a solid ergo chair without a ton of tech but comes in at a fairly reasonable price.
 
It's not that Leap (and Aeron, for that matter) isn't a great chair, it's just that it doesn't quite stack up against the other offerings. It's light-years better than anything you can find at Staples or Best Buy, which is probably why it gets such great reviews. Fortunately for me (and you, I guess) I get to have all of them side by side in a test lab, use them all day whenever I want too, and have all the data and field reviews to go by.


As far as Gesture being better when you aren't sitting "correct", I don't think its any better or worse at that than most other ergo chairs. Much of ergonomics is about adjusting to the user as well as possible, however the user works. Other than some features of the arms, I don't think you'll notice a difference.

You're right about Zody not looking as "techy".The lumbar-research they did was pretty cool, and the chair has some hidden little tricks like the tuned-mesh back. Other than the lumbar, it doesn't do anything different. It just does everything that you'd normally expect from that category of chair and it does them all really well.
 
Keep a set of hand spring grips at your computer desk. Even in the 10 second pauses between matches you can squeeze them which gets blood flowing through your hands and forearms.
 
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