"Soon we'll have nowhere left to run"

[Atheus]

Fares Akram is an English speaking journalist living in Gaza with his family. I discovered his blog yesterday. It paints a fascinating picture.

http://faresakram.livejournal.com/

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...my-father-1225793.html

To those who believe all Palestinians are terrorists or hopeless brainwashed terrorist sympathisers; read this and think again. Most of them are ordinary people - good people - trying to live ordinary lives among the chaos. Did this man's elderly father deserve to die in his bed? Did his baby deserve to born in a war zone?

Next time the Israelis drop leaflets warning of the shelling of civilian areas Hamas will head for their bukers and tunnels, while those civilians with money and no responsibilites at home might attempt to cross the border, but where do you suggest Fares Akram goes? What do you suggest he feeds his family?

I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas, and rightly so, but can you read this and still believe the Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

 

[OCGuy]

Isnt there a thread for this conflict already?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Atheus
Fares Akram is an English speaking journalist living in Gaza with his family. I discovered his blog yesterday. It paints a fascinating picture.

http://faresakram.livejournal.com/

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...my-father-1225793.html

To those who believe all Palestinians are terrorists or hopeless brainwashed terrorist sympathisers; read this and think again. Most of them are ordinary people - good people - trying to live ordinary lives among the chaos. Did this man's elderly father deserve to die in his bed? Did his baby deserve to born in a war zone?

Next time the Israelis drop leaflets warning of the shelling of civilian areas Hamas will head for their bukers and tunnels, while those civilians with money and no responsibilites at home might attempt to cross the border, but where do you suggest Fares Akram goes? What do you suggest he feeds his family?

I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas, and rightly so, but can you read this and still believe the Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

No, of course Palestinian civilians don't deserve this.

But Hamas does. And Hamas is reprehensible and gutless enough to hide among civilians. If Israel had the same moral latitude as Hamas, the death toll would be staggering. In fact, there'd probably be a mushroom cloud by now.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Atheus
Fares Akram is an English speaking journalist living in Gaza with his family. I discovered his blog yesterday. It paints a fascinating picture.

http://faresakram.livejournal.com/

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...my-father-1225793.html

To those who believe all Palestinians are terrorists or hopeless brainwashed terrorist sympathisers; read this and think again. Most of them are ordinary people - good people - trying to live ordinary lives among the chaos. Did this man's elderly father deserve to die in his bed? Did his baby deserve to born in a war zone?

Next time the Israelis drop leaflets warning of the shelling of civilian areas Hamas will head for their bukers and tunnels, while those civilians with money and no responsibilites at home might attempt to cross the border, but where do you suggest Fares Akram goes? What do you suggest he feeds his family?

I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas, and rightly so, but can you read this and still believe the Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

Why don't they take up arms and fight Hamas and then negotiate a peace treaty with Israel who's more than willing to offer a palestinian state for security?

Whether it's because they are cowardly or they agree with Hamas's goals, they don't deserve anything.

 

[Jaskalas]

Separate yourself from your fighters, or die along side them. If your fighters purposefully place you in harms way, then you need to seriously rethink why the f' you're still there when you know what Hamas is doing.

Need I tell you a war zone is no place to raise a family?

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Isnt there a thread for this conflict already?

I would like this thread to be about the civilians, not the war against Hamas itself, and certainly not the rights and wrongs of the existance of countries called Isreal or Palestine.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
No, of course Palestinian civilians don't deserve this.

But Hamas does.

I think many people (mostly westerners) are guilty of seeing the Palestinian people as backward, uneducated, fundamentalist barbarians - their lives somehow worth less than an Israeli life. This makes it very easy to argue that shooting through them hit the terrorists is acceptable, but when you read something like this blog, you are able to put names and faces to real human beings. Would you shoot through Fares Akram's newborn baby to hit a terrorist? It's a very different question.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Isnt there a thread for this conflict already?

I would like this thread to be about the civilians, not the war against Hamas itself, and certainly not the rights and wrongs of the existance of countries called Isreal or Palestine.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
No, of course Palestinian civilians don't deserve this.

But Hamas does.

I think many people (mostly westerners) are guilty of seeing the Palestinian people as backward, uneducated, fundamentalist barbarians - their lives somehow worth less than an Israeli life. This makes it very easy to argue that shooting through them hit the terrorists is acceptable, but when you read something like this blog, you are able to put names and faces to real human beings. Would you shoot through Fares Akram's newborn baby to hit a terrorist? It's a very different question.

They voted for backward, uneducated fundamentalist barbarians for their government.

As I've said before, I feel terribly sorry for palestinian children as they are the true innocents. The adults have made their bed.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Atheus

I think many people (mostly westerners) are guilty of seeing the Palestinian people as backward, uneducated, fundamentalist barbarians - their lives somehow worth less than an Israeli life. This makes it very easy to argue that shooting through them hit the terrorists is acceptable, but when you read something like this blog, you are able to put names and faces to real human beings. Would you shoot through Fares Akram's newborn baby to hit a terrorist? It's a very different question.

Sorry to break it to you, but it is the rest of the Arab world that sees the Palestinians as inferior. I think Iran has sent an "aid" ship to gaza, which has to stay in Egypt because it cant get by the blockade. Other than that and diplomats bitching in the UN, who is really trying to help Palestine?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

I support Israel in the Gaza situation.

I do not ever want civilians to die, but by the same token when those civilians allow terrorists to operate from their country/city/home/etc then they are no longer civilians IMO and are terrorist apologists/sympathizers/supporters (kinda like those pesky oil apologists ). If they don't want to risk being attacked, then they need to stand up as a people and kick terrorist groups out.

I hate any country being "police" for another (or internationally like the US currently is), but they have a right to protect their country and people as well. If a country isn't willing or able to police itself, and keep terrorist groups at bay (or to a minimum) then by all means somebody else (who want to protect their citizens and country from attacks that happen on a regular basis) can go in and fix the problem.

The US in Iraq I disagree with. Afghanistan I do agree with. Israel defending itself from further attacks I agree with. Should they avoid targeting civilians? Of course. Should they allow terrorists to use civilians as protection? No.

That all being said, this blogger could leave if he really wanted. Anybody is able to change their situation if they care enough to.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Isnt there a thread for this conflict already?

I would like this thread to be about the civilians, not the war against Hamas itself, and certainly not the rights and wrongs of the existance of countries called Isreal or Palestine.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
No, of course Palestinian civilians don't deserve this.

But Hamas does.

I think many people (mostly westerners) are guilty of seeing the Palestinian people as backward, uneducated, fundamentalist barbarians - their lives somehow worth less than an Israeli life. This makes it very easy to argue that shooting through them hit the terrorists is acceptable, but when you read something like this blog, you are able to put names and faces to real human beings. Would you shoot through Fares Akram's newborn baby to hit a terrorist? It's a very different question.

They voted for backward, uneducated fundamentalist barbarians for their government.

As I've said before, I feel terribly sorry for palestinian children as they are the true innocents. The adults have made their bed.

Do you mean these innocent palestinian children?

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: JS80
Why don't they take up arms and fight Hamas and then negotiate a peace treaty with Israel who's more than willing to offer a palestinian state for security?

Thay don't have 'arms' JS80 - Hamas has them all. The civilians don't even have food.

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Separate yourself from your fighters, or die along side them. If your fighters purposefully place you in harms way, then you need to seriously rethink why the f' you're still there when you know what Hamas is doing.

Need I tell you a war zone is no place to raise a family?

Did you read what I posted OR the blog itself? Clearly not as one of the main points is that they have nowhere else to go...

Originally posted by: alchemize
They voted for backward, uneducated fundamentalist barbarians for their government.

Some of them did, and many of those are the ones now launching the rockets, but what about the rest of them?

Originally posted by: JS80
Do you mean these innocent palestinian children?

Yes! What? You think the little girl made up all that stuff herself? If so please check yourself into the mental heath ward immediately. If you tell a trusting child to do something they're going to do it aren't they.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: Atheus
I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas, and rightly so, but can you read this and still believe the Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

Of course they don't deserve it. But what they deserve won't stop it, nor should it. If these ordinary Palestinian people want to get what they actually deserve then they need to demand that their government seek peaceful resolution with Israel. If their government refuses to do so, then they deserve to have their peaceful people take arms against them and replace them with a government that listens to the will of the people. Until that time, they get what others give them and not what they deserve.

 

[Zebo]

I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas

IMO this idea of stopping now would be terrible.


Totally killing off Hamas and being sure another one does not take it?s place should be the goal for Israeli sake and hostage Gazans - that includes securing southern borders. Anything short of that will only lead to re-arming, re attack by the Hamas terrorists and continued slaughter of Gazans by Hamas (you realise before this war started Hamas made crucifixion's legal again?).

In essence, if they do not fulfill these goals, this exercise will be remembered as only waste their time, money and political capital. And worse all those lives wasted for not on both sides.

Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

No I'm not part of the 'elected' them crowd so they "deserve it," Hamas killed, tortured ans intimidated their way to the top while putting on a deceptive humanitarian face with a couple hospitals. And continues to kill their own by hostage taking hoping for Israeli retaliation. All the more reason to free Gaza from these thugs once and for all.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Atheus
Fares Akram is an English speaking journalist living in Gaza with his family. I discovered his blog yesterday. It paints a fascinating picture.

http://faresakram.livejournal.com/

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...my-father-1225793.html

To those who believe all Palestinians are terrorists or hopeless brainwashed terrorist sympathisers; read this and think again. Most of them are ordinary people - good people - trying to live ordinary lives among the chaos. Did this man's elderly father deserve to die in his bed? Did his baby deserve to born in a war zone?

Next time the Israelis drop leaflets warning of the shelling of civilian areas Hamas will head for their bukers and tunnels, while those civilians with money and no responsibilites at home might attempt to cross the border, but where do you suggest Fares Akram goes? What do you suggest he feeds his family?

I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas, and rightly so, but can you read this and still believe the Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

Why don't they take up arms and fight Hamas and then negotiate a peace treaty with Israel who's more than willing to offer a palestinian state for security?

Whether it's because they are cowardly or they agree with Hamas's goals, they don't deserve anything.

They tried don't you remember that civil war they had? Here's what happens when you try.

WARNING! Disturbing video.

This is very hard to watch. These are Fatah men bound, face down like dogs, then machine gunned over and over by Hamas men.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/buggie/videos/3/

 

[Zebo]

Oh and another things JS80 - many pals do help Israeli all they can on the down low- thats how IDF knows which houses to hit and also how they are killing lots of Hamas leadership. As this war progresses and more civilians are interrogated I have full confidence all Hamas could captured or killed.

This is why Hamas is asking for a cease fire now, they are not stupid and know they are on the proverbial ropes. As IDF goes further in country expect their demands to get less and less.

Israeli, under weak and terrible leadership, combined with international pressure - will probably capitulate to some sort of cease fire leaving Hamas in power.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: alchemize
They voted for backward, uneducated fundamentalist barbarians for their government.

Some of them did, and many of those are the ones now launching the rockets, but what about the rest of them?

The majority of them did. And the majority fucked the minority. Been hearing that for 8 years in this forum

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Isnt there a thread for this conflict already?

nobody has time to read through that long ass pile of crap. Only you apologists want to stuff everything in there so people with little time can't read about relevant shit.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: Zebo

This is very hard to watch. These are Fatah men bound, face down like dogs, then machine gunned over and over by Hamas men.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/buggie/videos/3/

Do you have any proof that these are Fatah men being shot by Hamas men?

I ask because this same exact vid was floated around a couple of years ago by our pro-freedom blowhard P&N'ers as documentation of islamist Iraqi militia atrocities...

Is it Hamas, or Fatah, or Iraqi insurgents? Maybe they all got together for the shoot (pun intended), so that every hysterical racist around the world would have video "proof" of the awful behavior of whatever "islamofascist" group they're bleeting about on that particular day?

I'm absolutely not promoting or defending this barbaric execution, or any similar savagery by ANY group. I'd just really like to know if you can trace the origin of this footage with respect to proving your argument.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Zebo

This is very hard to watch. These are Fatah men bound, face down like dogs, then machine gunned over and over by Hamas men.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/buggie/videos/3/

Do you have any proof that these are Fatah men being shot by Hamas men?

I ask because this same exact vid was floated around a couple of years ago by our pro-freedom blowhard P&N'ers as documentation of islamist Iraqi militia atrocities...

Is it Hamas, or Fatah, or Iraqi insurgents? Maybe they all got together for the shoot (pun intended), so that every hysterical racist around the world would have video "proof" of the awful behavior of whatever "islamofascist" group they're bleeting about on that particular day?

I'm absolutely not promoting or defending this barbaric execution, or any similar savagery by ANY group. I'd just really like to know if you can trace the origin of this footage with respect to proving your argument.

Either way, radical Islam needs to be wiped out.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Zebo

This is very hard to watch. These are Fatah men bound, face down like dogs, then machine gunned over and over by Hamas men.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/buggie/videos/3/

Do you have any proof that these are Fatah men being shot by Hamas men?

I ask because this same exact vid was floated around a couple of years ago by our pro-freedom blowhard P&N'ers as documentation of islamist Iraqi militia atrocities...

Is it Hamas, or Fatah, or Iraqi insurgents? Maybe they all got together for the shoot (pun intended), so that every hysterical racist around the world would have video "proof" of the awful behavior of whatever "islamofascist" group they're bleeting about on that particular day?

I'm absolutely not promoting or defending this barbaric execution, or any similar savagery by ANY group. I'd just really like to know if you can trace the origin of this footage with respect to proving your argument.

Either way, radical Islam needs to be wiped out.

OK.

However, is this footage of Hamas barbarism, or perhaps African islamist barbarism? Maybe these are Iraqi "concerned citizens" taking out some AQI they caught? This execution is really really messy, but "war is hell," as many here like to say.

I don't speak arabic, so I can't tell what the diddy is about. I guess that any arab with a gun is a radical Islamist...

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Zebo

This is very hard to watch. These are Fatah men bound, face down like dogs, then machine gunned over and over by Hamas men.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/buggie/videos/3/

Do you have any proof that these are Fatah men being shot by Hamas men?

I ask because this same exact vid was floated around a couple of years ago by our pro-freedom blowhard P&N'ers as documentation of islamist Iraqi militia atrocities...

Is it Hamas, or Fatah, or Iraqi insurgents? Maybe they all got together for the shoot (pun intended), so that every hysterical racist around the world would have video "proof" of the awful behavior of whatever "islamofascist" group they're bleeting about on that particular day?

I'm absolutely not promoting or defending this barbaric execution, or any similar savagery by ANY group. I'd just really like to know if you can trace the origin of this footage with respect to proving your argument.

Either way, radical Islam needs to be wiped out.

OK.

However, is this footage of Hamas barbarism, or perhaps African islamist barbarism? Maybe these are Iraqi "concerned citizens" taking out some AQI they caught? This execution is really really messy, but "war is hell," as many here like to say.

I don't speak arabic, so I can't tell what the diddy is about. I guess that any arab with a gun is a radical Islamist...

LOL. You went from executioners to "any arab with a gun."

Does that actually work with some people?

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: fallout man

OK.

However, is this footage of Hamas barbarism, or perhaps African islamist barbarism? Maybe these are Iraqi "concerned citizens" taking out some AQI they caught? This execution is really really messy, but "war is hell," as many here like to say.

I don't speak arabic, so I can't tell what the diddy is about. I guess that any arab with a gun is a radical Islamist...

LOL. You went from executioners to "any arab with a gun."

Does that actually work with some people?

Don't laugh. It's not the stretch you're confusing it for.

My question for you, since you (and perhaps Zebo) can't actually prove that this is savagery by Hamas, or AQI, or anyone for that matter, I can just as well claim that these executioners are working in support of the coalition of the willing (or whatever).

They're not being very humane to the condemned (which I find despicable), but you don't really have any proof of who they are or their motives. After all, "war is hell," and "shit happens."

Your claim is that these are the "bad" guys because you heard some arab chant, and saw people getting shot. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I think you're showing blatant group-think in response to these sounds and images, all without any evidence to show us that this video is the work of radical islamists.

EDIT: I really don't care to derail this thread, which I feel deserves much merit. Let's just end this aside here.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Atheus

I would like this thread to be about the civilians, not the war against Hamas itself, and certainly not the rights and wrongs of the existance of countries called Isreal or Palestine.

You can't separate the topics with out separating Hamas from the Palestinian civilians. That's Hamas' doing, not Israel's.

I think many people (mostly westerners) are guilty of seeing the Palestinian people as backward, uneducated, fundamentalist barbarians - their lives somehow worth less than an Israeli life.

Two part answer:

1. I seldom agree with alchemize, but he's right that at least the plurality of Palestinian adults in Gaza elected Hamas knowing their official, announced, continuing goal is the destruction of Israel. That leaves them with at least some responsiblity for the situation they're in, now.

2. If Hamas had any respect for those civilians they claim to represent, they wouldn't use them as shields. Palestinians who oppose Hamas are their victims, as well. The question is, who put them in harms way?

The better question is, how do we get both sides to stop... REALLY stop? :light:

This makes it very easy to argue that shooting through them hit the terrorists is acceptable, but when you read something like this blog, you are able to put names and faces to real human beings. Would you shoot through Fares Akram's newborn baby to hit a terrorist? It's a very different question.

If the terrorist behind his baby was shooting at me and my family, you can believe I'd be shooting at them, baby or no baby.

I wouldn't like it, and, if I survived, I'd have to live with it, but at that moment, the only other option sucked even more.

 

[brownzilla786]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Isnt there a thread for this conflict already?

I would like this thread to be about the civilians, not the war against Hamas itself, and certainly not the rights and wrongs of the existance of countries called Isreal or Palestine.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
No, of course Palestinian civilians don't deserve this.

But Hamas does.

I think many people (mostly westerners) are guilty of seeing the Palestinian people as backward, uneducated, fundamentalist barbarians - their lives somehow worth less than an Israeli life. This makes it very easy to argue that shooting through them hit the terrorists is acceptable, but when you read something like this blog, you are able to put names and faces to real human beings. Would you shoot through Fares Akram's newborn baby to hit a terrorist? It's a very different question.

They voted for backward, uneducated fundamentalist barbarians for their government.

As I've said before, I feel terribly sorry for palestinian children as they are the true innocents. The adults have made their bed.

Do you mean these innocent palestinian children?

Do you think the children viewing that show deserve to die? I'm pretty sure I already know your answer but maybe you can surprise me

 

[wwswimming]

Originally posted by: Atheus
Fares Akram is an English speaking journalist living in Gaza with his family. I discovered his blog yesterday. It paints a fascinating picture.

http://faresakram.livejournal.com/

http://www.independent.co.uk/n...my-father-1225793.html

To those who believe all Palestinians are terrorists or hopeless brainwashed terrorist sympathisers; read this and think again. Most of them are ordinary people - good people - trying to live ordinary lives among the chaos. Did this man's elderly father deserve to die in his bed? Did his baby deserve to born in a war zone?

Next time the Israelis drop leaflets warning of the shelling of civilian areas Hamas will head for their bukers and tunnels, while those civilians with money and no responsibilites at home might attempt to cross the border, but where do you suggest Fares Akram goes? What do you suggest he feeds his family?

I'm sure our resident Israel lovers will continue to support the war on Hamas, and rightly so, but can you read this and still believe the Palestinian civilians deserve what they're getting?

yes, the Palestinians are actually people.

Wikipedia on the refugees created when Israel destroyed 400 Palestinian villages in 1948, as part of seizing the land that became Israel in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus


Palestine Remembered website, a tour of Palestine in 1948. what it was like to live their before the war where the land was stolen. a lot of olive farmers growing olives next to the Mediterranean, like in Greece.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/


interview with a refugee who lives in Daly City, Ca, and left Palestine in 1948 at the age of 17.

http://www.alternet.org/audits...years_ago/?page=entire

What It Was Like Being Forced to Leave Palestine 60 Years Ago


some Israel supporters choose to be blind to the destruction of Palestine.

this puts them in an odd position. they insist that the world pay homage to the Holocaust in Germany, yet are in denial about the innate facts of the creation of the "Palestinian Problem" by Israel. Israel created the Palestinian problem by stealing the Palestinians land.

and feign surprise and shock and horror when the Palestinians' puny army fights back.

That war & theft the Palestinians refer to as Al Nakba. it is their term for Holocaust.

no one denies that Hamas and other groups shoot bombs into civilian areas of Israel & kills dozens of Israeli
civilians during the last 60 years. it's all over the media.

but Israel-supporters are in denial about killing tens of thousands of Palestinian citizens.

Israel supporters insist that it was justified to -
A/ steal the Palestinians land, and
B/ kill the Palestinians because they fight back.

this is similar to the same moral calculus that Hitler used to justify killing Jews. to Hitler, the Jews were mud-bloods, to use the Harry Potter term. To Israel supporters, the Palestinians are mud-bloods.

it's human for people to feel that way, but i thought there was wide-spread agreement that Hitler's choice to act on his racist feelings was a huge moral error.

so how is it not a huge moral error & tragedy for Israel to treat the Palestinians similarly ?


http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/0...counts-house-of-death/

gaza-boy-recounts-house-of-death


Israel has put 1.5 Palestinians in a concentration camp and is using White Phosphorus and DIME, both chemical weapons, on Palestinian civilians.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...ast/article5470047.ece


why does Israel get a "pass", yet if someone like Hitler had done this, he would be condemned ?

it is because Israel supporters consider the Palestinians to be "mud-bloods", and they consider the theft of their land to be justified.

they want us to remember Hitler's crimes, and to ignor their crimes.

they are joined in this belief by American Christians. as in the bumper sticker that says, "Palestine belongs to Israel, the Bible says so".