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something I never understood about Black Hawk Down...
- Thread starter Maverick
- Start date
WalMart1564
Banned
i guess he was just really good
In a war situation people can be promote quickly, therefor any warm body that is closes to the situation will be call upon.
As a child living in Vietnam I have seen the army force civilians to carry weapons & shoot because they need someone to replace the dead. I was a strong & tall 12 years old that were drafted (barely able to carry an AK, but it was good enough for them), but luckly my parent bribe the VC officials to get me out.
Grasshopper27
Banned
Army Rangers are not as elite as most people think. They are better trained for combat than the normal combat troops, but they are not SEALs or Commandos by any stretch of the imagination.
If you didn't read the book, then it wasn't clear from the movie, but they did have Commandos on the ground there, and they are far more combat able than the Rangers. More expensive to produce and they exist in far fewer numbers however. Average age of a Commando is early 30s BTW.
Hopper
Nothing much, but I was in a training camp for about 2 weeks before my parents got me out. Then we tried thrice to escape before we got out of the country to Malaysia.
My father knew the situation much better than I, because they took him away from his family at about 14 years old to carry war supplies for 6 months before he escaped with 7 others (only him & 1 other survived the run/shot at through the 2 weeks harsh jungle treck to the South). He saw his parents & some of his siblings once after 35 years of no words/separations, then we were successful at our third attempt of escape about 3 years latter. My father died 11 years after our treacherous escape from Vietnam, and he passed away with out ever hearing form his family ever again. My father was also in a VC hard labor camp for 4.5 years.
It is a hard & sad thing for me to remember about things during the war. Pain, lost & unjust is the reason that I'm against all wars.
robotcholi
Golden Member
lowtech, i feel you buddy.
It is one sad chapter in our history.
It is one sad chapter in our history.
I am not trying to recall any nasty memories, and am completely serious, no poking fun.
If you have experienced these horrible conditions, I am assuming that you would not want anyone to experience this. How can you be against us wanting to free the Iraqis from situations very similar to this? We know that he tortures anyone from his country not in his inner circle.
Don't want to start a "should we, or shouldn't we" thread, am just wondering about your reasoning.
EDIT: Shortening quote.
Errrrrrrr...
Generally, to get into Delta, you have to be I think E6 or higher, so naturally your going to have an older, more mature member than you would for the Rangers... But Delta actively recruits from the Rangers (Or at least did) and you arguably have a much better chance of getting into Delta after being a Ranger than any other unit.
Dave
Dave
You can enlist to go directly into the Rangers, but that doesn't mean its an easy thing... If you go Infantry, you complete Basic and AIT, then go onto Airborne school from there. You used to go to the battalion you were assigned to, and then have to complete RIP (Ranger Indoctrination Program) before going on to battalion. You essentially became a Ranger after that.. Spending much of your time training and preparing to go to Ranger School. Battalion also had a 3 week class called Pre Ranger that you went through to get you up to speed for Ranger School. Now I believe you go through RIP at Benning before going on to Battalion.... You generally would be at Battalion for 6-18 months before going to Ranger School.
Actually they are quite elite for there intended Mission, they are one of the most capable light infantry units in the world, but there mission is usually quite different than that of other Special Operations units.... You would generally not send in SEAL's to seize and hold an airfield, just as you would not send in a 'Team' of Rangers to sabotage a strategic installation.
Volunteering for the Rangers is not an MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) as the Rangers mainly consist of Infantry (11B = grunt, 11C = Mortar Maggot etc...) as well as other combat related MOS's and support, and is very much a Special Forces Unit. They fall under SOCCOM (Special Operations Command) as do Delta, Special Forces, SEALs, DEVGRU, AFSOC, etc... The thing to remember is that the Ranger mission is just different than what other Special Operations do...
Generally, to get into Delta, you have to be I think E6 or higher, so naturally your going to have an older, more mature member than you would for the Rangers... But Delta actively recruits from the Rangers (Or at least did) and you arguably have a much better chance of getting into Delta after being a Ranger than any other unit.
Dave
Dave
I'm not so sure that war is ever the right thing to do. Freedom is something that you create for yourself not someone else dictate their way to you, as describe by my family situation. To me war is just a lingering pain that will never heal even decades after.
What I has describe in my last post is just a small part in my family life adventure, because I have seen much more death & pain that many here can?t even fathom.
It is difficult for me to go to bed to night, because of my memories. And it is also difficult for me to think what going to happen to the civilians/children in the middle east.
There hasn't been a war that solves problems, but it is the agony of the after math that creates more troubles.
Grasshopper27
Banned
No, you would not send in SEALs to take and hold airfields (as was done in Panama where a number of SEALs were killed). Rangers should have been used for that.
You would also not send in Rangers to perform hostage rescue or sabotage. (Delta and SEALs do those well)
Small scale assualt and destruction is best carried out by Commandos, they are great at killing people and blowing stuff up, less good at hostage rescue and inteligence. But boy, you drop 12 of them off in the middle of downtown Bagdad and while they would not likely survive the experience, they will take a lot of people with them.
That may be true, but there are nearly 100 Rangers for each SEAL or Commando. It is far easier to become a Ranger than to become a SEAL or Commando.
Delta draws mostly from the Rangers, they are picky about who they take, and their age averages in their 30s.
Hopper
Grasshopper27
Banned
I'm 100% sure it is, and if it were possible to step outside your own past, you'd see that too.
Exibit A: Adolf Hitler
He had to be stopped, any price paid was acceptable. He was a mad-man who came very close to winning World War II.
The Iraqi people do not have the means to create freedom for themselves, it just isn't possible to fight tanks with rocks.
If we don't invade, a lot of children will die.
If we do invade, a lot of children might die.
I prefer the "might" option to the "will" option, but maybe that's just me. 🙂
I refer you back to Exibit A again.
War can and does solve problems, sometimes far better than diplomacy. War shouldn't be the first solution, but it can never be taken off the table.
Why?
Peace requires two, war only requires one.
Only force can remove Saddam if he doesn't want to go, no amount of talking will ever change that fact.
Hopper
Was there an 18 year-old Army Ranger depicted in BHD? I don't recall for certain.
At any rate, "elite" is all relative, relative to what? I agree that terms like 'elite commandos' are tossed around a little too much concerning Airborne Rangers, giving the impression they are Special Forces commandos or operators of the level of Navy SEALs and Green Berets. They're not special forces commandos or operators, proper.
Also, you are 'qualified' to the nominal distinction of an "Army Ranger" upon completing the three week Ranger Indoctrination Program and assignment to one of the three Ranger Battalions or 75th Ranger Regimental Headquarters, but you don't earn your Ranger tab until completion of the 14 week US Army Ranger School at Ft. Benning. The distinction of "Army Ranger" comes with service in one of the three 75th Ranger Regimental Battalions or 75th Regimental HQ. Sorta like the nominal distinction of being an "Army Tanker" because you serve in a tank battalion, though I am just using that as illustration. I don't think anyone is called a "tanker". haha
Once you complete Ranger Indoctrination Program and are assigned to a Ranger Battalion, you're combat ready and can be deployed at any time, as was the case in Desert Storm and Somalia.
To get to that point, all you need complete is nine week Army basic training, five more weeks of AIT, three weeks of Army Airborne School, three week Ranger Indoctrination Program, and several weeks with your Ranger Battalion. So basically about 25 weeks from head shaving to an Army Ranger Battalion.
In order to qualify for US Army Ranger School and earn your Ranger tabs, you generally must serve with distinction in your Ranger Battalion for several months. Pat Tillman is an Army Ranger via his assignment to a Ranger Battalion, though he has yet to enter Ranger School and earn his Ranger tabs.
Grasshopper27
Banned
That was my point, the SEALs were used for political reasons, even the soldiers said it wasn't the right job for them, but they went when ordered. Several died as a result.
Rangers backed up by Commandos should have been used for that assualt.
Hopper
Rangers train for direct attack missions, meaning that they have more training for regular combat missions than plain ol' infantry. Rangers are elite troops, but it's all relative. Plus, you need to look at mission.
Too often people assume that Delta, SEALs, SF, and various other groups are used for taking out military targets in huge firefights because they're "elite". That's the reason why SOCOM was created: to stop military commanders from misusing their SO troops like they did in Panama. Sure, they are highly trained, expert marksmen, and have a thorough understanding of small unit tactics, but you would NEVER want to send them to take out a machinegun bunker simply because they might be better at it.
Too often people assume that Delta, SEALs, SF, and various other groups are used for taking out military targets in huge firefights because they're "elite". That's the reason why SOCOM was created: to stop military commanders from misusing their SO troops like they did in Panama. Sure, they are highly trained, expert marksmen, and have a thorough understanding of small unit tactics, but you would NEVER want to send them to take out a machinegun bunker simply because they might be better at it.
glenn1
Lifer
It depends on the mission involved. For DA (Direct Action) and airfield seizures, there's no one better than the boys of 75th Ranger Regiment. Putting them against OPFOR on the ground is like setting a pihrana loose in a fishtank, they simply kill every single thing in their wake without a second thought. Our team worked with them a couple of times, and coming from the SF side of things, we were appalled to sit in during their mission briefs. On one mission our detachment worked with the Regiment, we almost fell off our chairs when told the mission planning parameters allowed for a 60% casualty rate for the operation :Q
The Uber Elite
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