Someone better informed please educate me on an issue with the Manafort trial.

[Hayabusa Rider]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...43eefab5daf_story.html?utm_term=.7803810df950

At the end of this all, if the jury cannot come to an agreement on one of 18 charges will this invalidate the findings of the other 17 or does the trial count except for the one issue? Is this all or nothing?

I didn't stay at the Holliday Express for this one.

 

[vi edit]

I've been trying to follow all of it as well. I think it's possible the prosecution can just move to drop that one, but that may be judge/court specific.

 

[Viper1j]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...43eefab5daf_story.html?utm_term=.7803810df950

At the end of this all, if the jury cannot come to an agreement on one of 18 charges will this invalidate the findings of the other 17 or does the trial count except for the one issue? Is this all or nothing?

I didn't stay at the Holliday Express for this one.

No.
He can be acquitted on some, but not all of the charges, or he can be convicted on some, but not all of the charges. Either one of those can apply, in the event of a hung jury, on some of the charges.

The thing is, they stacked so many charges against him, that two or more convictions on any of the 18 charges, effectively means he'll die in prison.

And, after all that's that and done, he still has to deal with even more charges in Washington DC. There's a whole new trial after this one's done.

It's kinda like CUBO..
Conduct Unbecoming an Officer.

A cop may be acquitted for a crime, and still be fired under CUBO.

 

[interchange]

I don't know an exact answer, but I would hope that inability to come to a unanimous decision on a single count could not result in a mistrial for the whole shebang.

 

[fskimospy]

No.
He can be acquitted on some, but not all of the charges, or he can be convicted on some, but not all of the charges. Either one of those can apply, in the event of a hung jury, on some of the charges.

The thing is, they stacked so many charges against him, that to a more convictions on any of the 18 charges, effectively means he'll die in prison.

And, after all that's that and done, he still has to deal with even more charges in Washington DC. There's a whole new trial after this one's done.

It's kinda like CUBO..
Conduct Unbecoming an Officer.

A cop may be acquitted for a crime, and still be fired under CUBO.

Yes, this is the answer. A hung jury in the way OP is thinking of it would mean that they were hung on all counts (or all the meaningful ones). It appears that they have come to a decision on all but one and I would be absolutely floored if that didn't mean that he was guilty on a large number of the 17.

 

[Viper1j]

It wouldn't. And let's say he gets convicted on 8 charges, acquitted on 5 charges, and a hung jury on 5 charges. There would be 5 mistrials declared, he would be sentenced on 8, and he could face possible retrials on the hung 5. All while he's sitting in prison on the 8 he was convicted of.

But I'm betting they would just save the money because he can't serve out an 237 year sentence, with being eligible for parole after 114 years.

 

[fskimospy]

It wouldn't. And let's say he gets convicted on 8 charges, acquitted on 5 charges, and a hung jury on 5 charges. There would be 5 mistrials declared, he would be sentenced on 8, and he could face possible retrials on the hung 5. All while he's sitting in prison on the 8 he was convicted of.

But I'm betting they would save the money because he can't serve out an 237 year sentence, with being eligible for parole after 114 years.

Yes, I agree. Maybe I worded my post poorly.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So assuming Manafort is found guilty on some or all of the remainder I wonder how long to the pardon?

 

[fskimospy]

So assuming Manafort is found guilty on some or all of the remainder I wonder how long to the pardon?

If Trump is going to pardon Manafort at all I would assume he would wait until after the outcome of the second trial so he can pardon everything all at once instead of having to go through the PR fiasco twice.

Not sure how much that helps him though as then Manafort loses 5th amendment protections and could be forced to testify against Trump.

 

[Jhhnn]

Each charge is a stand alone thing. Manafort could conceivably be found guilty on some, innocent on some & have a hung jury on others. The judge can declare a mistrial on any charges where there's a hung jury & the govt can prosecute those again should they choose. If Manafort receives a sentence sufficient for him to die behind bars they probably won't bother.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

No.
He can be acquitted on some, but not all of the charges, or he can be convicted on some, but not all of the charges. Either one of those can apply, in the event of a hung jury, on some of the charges.

The thing is, they stacked so many charges against him, that two or more convictions on any of the 18 charges, effectively means he'll die in prison.

And, after all that's that and done, he still has to deal with even more charges in Washington DC. There's a whole new trial after this one's done.

It's kinda like CUBO..
Conduct Unbecoming an Officer.

A cop may be acquitted for a crime, and still be fired under CUBO.

More or less just heard this on the radio. They did make the assumption that the Jury has not found Manafort innocent of 17 of 18 charges.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

If Trump is going to pardon Manafort at all I would assume he would wait until after the outcome of the second trial so he can pardon everything all at once instead of having to go through the PR fiasco twice.

Not sure how much that helps him though as then Manafort loses 5th amendment protections and could be forced to testify against Trump.

Ha and our current generation of Republican Congress Critters would allow Manafort to come before them.

 

[emperus]

If Trump is going to pardon Manafort at all I would assume he would wait until after the outcome of the second trial so he can pardon everything all at once instead of having to go through the PR fiasco twice.

Not sure how much that helps him though as then Manafort loses 5th amendment protections and could be forced to testify against Trump.

I believe he can issue a preemptive pardon like Ford did for Nixon.

 

[Jhhnn]

If Trump is going to pardon Manafort at all I would assume he would wait until after the outcome of the second trial so he can pardon everything all at once instead of having to go through the PR fiasco twice.

Not sure how much that helps him though as then Manafort loses 5th amendment protections and could be forced to testify against Trump.

That's not really true. A person given a pardon retains their fifth amendment rights in all other matters. If a person pardoned over a burglary is asked about a separate instance of murder they don't have to answer.

You'll also notice that none of the charges address the issue of a campaign receiving material support from a foreign govt or conspiring to obtain it. Manafort would retain his rights wrt those things.

Pardoning Manafort right away would be sheer folly. I see Manafort waiting patiently in federal prison until Nov of 2020 at which point Trump can pardon him with impunity.

 

[baydude]

What would he have gotten if he took the plea deal?

 

[emperus]

Pardoning Manafort right away would be sheer folly. I see Manafort waiting patiently in federal prison until Nov of 2020 at which point Trump can pardon him with impunity.

That may not be true. There is an exception in cases of Impeachment. If Trump does get impeached, could he then pardon Mueller? Noone has tested any of that, but it makes sense that a president couldn't pardon someone with information relevant to an Impeachment hearing.

 

[fskimospy]

That's not really true. A person given a pardon retains their fifth amendment rights in all other matters. If a person pardoned over a burglary is asked about a separate instance of murder they don't have to answer.

You'll also notice that none of the charges address the issue of a campaign receiving material support from a foreign govt or conspiring to obtain it. Manafort would retain his rights wrt those things.

Pardoning Manafort right away would be sheer folly. I see Manafort waiting patiently in federal prison until Nov of 2020 at which point Trump can pardon him with impunity.

Since the things that are relevant to Trump are the criminal acts they did together that doesn't matter so much.

 

[Jhhnn]

Since the things that are relevant to Trump are the criminal acts they did together that doesn't matter so much.

None of the criminal acts for which Manafort might be pardoned have anything to do with Trump. He would have immunity only wrt those acts & no others.

 

[Jhhnn]

That may not be true. There is an exception in cases of Impeachment. If Trump does get impeached, could he then pardon Mueller? Noone has tested any of that, but it makes sense that a president couldn't pardon someone with information relevant to an Impeachment hearing.

The President can pardon anybody they want while they are President. Even if it adds fuel to the fire of Senate conviction & removal the pardon would be valid. It's black letter Constitutional law.

 

[fskimospy]

None of the criminal acts for which Manafort might be pardoned have anything to do with Trump. He would have immunity only wrt those acts & no others.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion but that seems unlikely considering Manafort's second trial that's set to happen shortly is all about Russian interference in our elections. I would be very surprised if none of those things relate to Trump and being pardoned for bank fraud doesn't help if you end up in prison anyway for the other stuff. If Manafort isn't pardoned for everything it does him no good.

 

[Thebobo]

What if he is found not guilty on all the charges? ~

 

[Victorian Gray]

What if he is found not guilty on all the charges? ~

They move on to the next case against him.

 

[UNCjigga]

Jury has reached a verdict on 8 of the 18 counts...

 

[emperus]

The President can pardon anybody they want while they are President. Even if it adds fuel to the fire of Senate conviction & removal the pardon would be valid. It's black letter Constitutional law.

You are not right. There is no black letter Constitutional law on this because it hasn't been tested and the wording is vague. Here it goes.

Article II, Section 2
"[The President] shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

 

[UNCjigga]

Get ready for the not guilty. Judge Ellis declared the jury is hopelessly deadlocked and will go with their verdict on 8 counts only. Mistrial on the other 10 confirmed.