some very specialized mini-ITX build questions

[froky]

I have an unusual project where a GPU needs to do a lot of work, CPU on the other hand very little, and both need to be crammed in as small space as possible. I'm wondering, are there smaller motherboards than miniITX which still support a GPU? I've heard about picoATX and microATX only.
The other option seems using a single board PC like the Minnowboard Max to save few cm of space.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Define "GPU". Are we talking high-end, mainstream or low-end? Or integrated ones?

Also you could take a look at AMD APUs. Their IGP has all the same functionality as AMD's discrete ones. Just in a smaller package.

 

[froky]

Even better, I'll tell you which one will be using: GeForce GTX 970 Mini.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Even better, I'll tell you which one will be using: GeForce GTX 970 Mini.

Excellent choice, though if you can wait a bit the R9 Nano might well be worth a look.

That said, I don't think you'll find anything smaller with a full-size PCIe x16 slot. ITX board are pretty much the smallest that can fit one.

Besides there are excellent ITX cases and boards out there, if you want to minimize your system.

F.x.
http://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/cases/node-series/node-202-integra-sfx-450w-psu

Board really depends on your needs...

 

[froky]

That said, I don't think you'll find anything smaller with a full-size PCIe x16 slot. ITX board are pretty much the smallest that can fit one.

Good point, but it can be the same length in one side but narrower. That would also help.
And I think its worth to discuss whether all the lanes of PCIe are needed for this kind of project. What do the extra lanes give exactly? For this project maximum of 10000 polygon and 1024x1024 pixel scene will be rendered, just from lots of angles. So little data goes in and ton of data is generated from it and comes out of the display port/hdmi.

PSU is one of the reasons I'm thinking of sacrificing some motherboard space.

 

[JustMe21]

Thin-ITX is a little thinner, but the length and width are still the same as mini ITX (7.6" x 7.6")

The down side is the PCI-E slot is only x4.

http://www.gigabyte.us/microsite/348/images/model.html

http://www.asrock.com/mb/index.asp?s=Intel mITX


The plus side is they usually have DC jacks, so you just need to find a power brick that's 19V with a 7.4mm x 5.0 - 5.1mm tip. Like this one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA3M32W85543

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Thin-ITX is a little thinner, but the length and width are still the same as mini ITX (7.6" x 7.6")

The down side is the PCI-E slot is only x4.

http://www.gigabyte.us/microsite/348/images/model.html

http://www.asrock.com/mb/index.asp?s=Intel mITX


The plus side is they usually have DC jacks, so you just need to find a power brick that's 19V with a 7.4mm x 5.0 - 5.1mm tip. Like this one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA3M32W85543

Unfortunately, all the thin ITX boards I've seen are incapable of supporting discrete graphics cards. The PCIe slot simply cannot supply enough power. You also run into the problem that a GTX970 requires a 6 (or 2x 6 pin in some cases) or 8 pin PCIe connector.

 

[froky]

Please tell me if I have the right info: miniITX is smaller than miniATX and is usually 17cm x 17cm and is the smallest one which works with standard GPUs properly (such as GTX 970 Mini).

 

[i7Baby]

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX for motherboard sizing

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Please tell me if I have the right info: miniITX is smaller than miniATX and is usually 17cm x 17cm and is the smallest one which works with standard GPUs properly (such as GTX 970 Mini).

Yes, that is correct.

Mini ITX (or just ITX) is 170mm x 170mm. There are other smaller ITX variants but they do not support expansion slots.

mATX (mini/micro ATX) is 284mm x 208mm. Occasionally confused with mini ATX, which is (or rather was) a proprietary AOpen format.

You may also come across Mini DTX and Flex ATX (rare today).

Mini DTX is 203mm x 170mm, essentially an ITX board with two additional expansion slots.

Flex ATX is 229mm x 191mm.

 

[froky]

Thing is I see Mini ATX sizes mentioned as 15x15cm somewhere and then 28x20cm. If it's the former I'd go with miniATX, not miniITX, but there's contradicting info.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Thing is I see Mini ATX sizes mentioned as 15x15cm somewhere and then 28x20cm. If it's the former I'd go with miniATX, not miniITX, but there's contradicting info.

Please excuse while I quote myself...

mATX (mini/micro ATX) is 284mm x 208mm. Occasionally confused with mini ATX, which is (or rather was) a proprietary AOpen format.

Thing is the AOpen format doesn't exist any more, since AOpen dropped out of the consumer mainboard market.

 

[froky]

Okay.

This is off topic, but it's been for a while.
CPU coolers take up lot of vertical space. I don't need much CPU power, even an Intel Atom netbook seems to handle the CPU-only stuff at that framerate.
What options do I have?
Do some lower power CPUs work without cooler? Some kind of short/wide cooler? I'm a notebook guy that's why I still don't know.
I'm actually thinking of using an extension cable and mounting the GPU horizontally to save height.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Okay.

This is off topic, but it's been for a while.
CPU coolers take up lot of vertical space. I don't need much CPU power, even an Intel Atom netbook seems to handle the CPU-only stuff at that framerate.
What options do I have?

Have you considered the AMD APU? I'm pretty sure one of the larger on-board IGPs (384SP or 512SP variety combined with 2133MHz memory) can handle your needs. CPU portion is a lot faster then any Atom.

It'll reduce complexity since you can loose the discrete graphics card.

Do some lower power CPUs work without cooler? Some kind of short/wide cooler? I'm a notebook guy that's why I still don't know.

Such boards do exist. F.x.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/QC5000-ITXWiFi/

I'm actually thinking of using an extension cable and mounting the GPU horizontally to save height.

Did you check out that chassis I linked to earlier in the thread? It does precisely that and pretty much everything else you want while being remarkably small.

There is little reason to DIY a chassis, unless its for a very specific purpose.

 

[froky]

Have you considered the AMD APU? I'm pretty sure one of the larger on-board IGPs (384SP or 512SP variety combined with 2133MHz memory) can handle your needs. CPU portion is a lot faster then any Atom.

It'll reduce complexity since you can loose the discrete graphics card.

While these APUs are pretty impressive, we really need all the power of GTX 970 level GPU. I don't know if it makes sense, at least cost-wise, to use an APU then instead of a regular CPU.

That board you linked to shows a nice, short APU cooler. We want to make the setup as short as possivle (that's where the idea of positioning both the motherboard and GPU horizontally and connecting them with a extender cable comes from). So if there are CPU coolers like that I'd like to know, as well as what CPUs will work with them and how to prevent overheating. This is a question deserving its own thread I know, but this thread explains why I would ever want to get a tiny CPU cooler.

Did you check out that chassis I linked to earlier in the thread? It does precisely that and pretty much everything else you want while being remarkably small.

There is little reason to DIY a chassis, unless its for a very specific purpose.

Unfortunately it is for a very specific purpose.
The case for the device has to be cylindrical with very specific dimensions, with two floors, first containing the motherboard with the GPU and second floor a special DC motor, small specialized video projector, some optics, mechanical parts and a microcontroller.
So yeah, the case has to be custom built.
A spiritual successor to this device:

Goal is to build it as small as possible.

 

[mxnerd]

apparently this is custom made, I don't believe you can assemble one using off-shelf stuff and make it very small

http://www.it.com.cn/f/diy/056/8/126630_1.htm

 

[froky]

I know enough about that device. I have one. It's pretty large just because it uses old large projector engine instead of our tiny LED based one.
I didn't say ''very small'', I said "as small as possible". I already have a general idea about the size knowing the size of the motherboard, PSU and GPU...

Can we please just discuss my specific questions regarding the GPU/CPU? The device is a topic of its own.

 

[mxnerd]

hmm, if you already knew the sizes of motherboard, PSU and GPU, why even ask?

You can be on your own.

 

[Ketchup]

You might find some ideas in this thread:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2417090&highlight=

Specifically posts 23 and and 33.

 

[froky]

hmm, if you already knew the sizes of motherboard, PSU and GPU, why even ask?

Read post 15, its right before your first response. I have questions other than topic title question.

You might find some ideas in this thread:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2417090&highlight=

Specifically posts 23 and and 33.

I read the whole thread. Not sure how its relevant. Mostly discussions on ATX vs ITX and links to cases?
It did give an idea about having an external PSU.

 

[piasabird]

No such thing as mini-ATX.

http://www.formfactors.org/formfactor.asp

 

[froky]

No such thing as mini-ATX.

http://www.formfactors.org/formfactor.asp

Used to be, google it...

 

[Ketchup]

Mini ITX is as small as you are going to get for a board that will accept a video card.

For all intents and purposes, Mini ATX is dead. It was an Aopen exclusive design that was very short-lived. Most people now use the terms mini ATX and micro ATX interchangeably.

 

[mxnerd]

There is a Nano ITX form factor that's 120mm x 120mm. No GTX 970 can fit on a Nano ITX, however, for obvious reason.

 

[froky]

Hm, okay, I apologize.
I will edit the topic title to not cause confusion. The "is there a smaller option than mini ITX?" original question is answered already.

My current question is this:

CPU coolers take up lot of vertical space. I don't need much CPU power, even an Intel Atom netbook seems to handle the CPU-only stuff at that framerate.
What options do I have?
Do some lower power CPUs work without cooler? Some kind of short/wide cooler?

The motherboard is going to be mounted on the custom case horizontally, the GPU horizontally, above it, connected with an extension ribbon cable. I don't want the motherboard+GPU+CPU to take up more vertical size than that, so I'd like the CPU cooler to be short, that's the reason.

I also have a question regarding an unusual GPU->motherboard connection which seems to work with some limitations on smaller motherboards but we'll discuss it after this.