Some thoughts of the reconciliation of evolution and faith.

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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We see that certain individuals sometimes experience an altered state of consciousness often called cosmic consciousness because it is accompanied by a sense of divine presence, peace, transcendent joy, universal love, the cessation of fear and doubt, etc etc, and the complete transformation of the individuals life. Often such people instantly become religious leaders. The world is littered with the detritus of their philosophies. What is clear is that whatever the nature of the experience, it carries with it the absolute certainty that having it is valuable beyond all else. Clearly too the experience can vary from individual to individual depending on the nature, preparation and capacity of the experiencer.

Every religion is in some sense, then, an attempt to lay down procedures by which others can come to the same understanding. In this sense, then, religion is a procedural science of experience about which no judgement whatsoever can be rendered by anybody who has not experienced the final goal. Religion is a bridge to reality, another state of consciousness that is, if we believe the experiencers, vastly superior, true reality, etc, over ordinary consciousness.

So a real religion in the hands of knowers is a science of experience, a journey of spiritual development under the tutelage of a seer. It is a set of tools with a specific aim. The goal is what is important. The tools are irrelevant in that they vary according to the nature of the particular blindness afflicting the seeker. Upon the death of the teacher the students may continue to play with the tools as if they comprehended them. These are the religions of the world. Because the tools were instruments of power, real insight, they can occasionally produce results for deeply serious seekers.

For the rest it is just an incantation of mumbo jumbo, a sterile repetition of formula, dogma, and ritual. It is these who think they know but are untransformed that give religion its well-earned bad name and drive the rest to atheism, etc.

In order, I think, for humanity to progress, we need deeper understanding. We have to recognize and admit that fundamentalism and the accompanying mental gymnastics it practices to conform real world data into a narrow doctrinal text which MUST BE TRUE is a complete and unnecessary delusional effort to protect a sacred fact, the validity of the God experience, from the fact that the texts that allude to it are not in any way absolute truth and do not have to be for the validity of the central fact. God can't die because the Bible is wrong. What a sad god that would be.

What the scientifically minded need to consider is that the phenomenon that produces religion is a real one. The great teachers have experienced something that we haven't, something that, did we but know it, we would pay for with our lives. Furthermore, we need no evidence of the existence of God to hole this as a tenable postulate and working hypothesis. Whether what these individuals experience is a real God out there of a brain induced phenomena is irrelevant. The experience itself is transformative- potential revealing. The experiencer, without fail goes from being an ordinary human being to something beyond comprehension. Some may say 'God', others, 'so this is what I really am'.
 

Azraele

Elite Member
Nov 5, 2000
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Deep thoughts by Moonbeam...you hit on the subject of faith without really mentioning it per say. I think you should emphasize it a bit more to give further claim to your argument.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
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Oct 28, 1999
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1) won't happen as long as religion stays organized

2) most eastern religions/philosophies have been practicing this since their inception
 

I'm Typing

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Oct 9, 1999
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This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I
found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I
want to kiss his ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if
you don't, he'll kick the sh!t out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank
owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to
give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million
dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the
money, and he kicks the sh!t out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the
million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year,
and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've
never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll
get
a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty
dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?

John: "Hank has certain connections.'"

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And
remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the sh!t of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight
from him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other
times we kiss Karl's ass,and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing
Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank,
that Hank wanted you to
kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the
whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on From the desk of
Karl
letterhead. There were eleven items listed:

1.Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when
you leave town.
2.Use alcohol in moderation.
3.Kick the sh!t out of people who aren't like you.
4.Eat right.
5.Hank dictated this list himself.
6.The moon is made of green cheese.
7.Everything Hank says is right.
8.Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.Don't drink.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the sh!t out of you.

Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's
handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of
philanthropist kicks the sh!t out of people just because they're
different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough
for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides,
item 2 says Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says Eat right,' and item
8 says Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows
those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But 9 says Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6
says The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As
far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of
rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out
of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came
from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock
came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know
Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, thelist
is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it
because the list says so.
That's circular logic, no different than saying Hank's right because he
says he's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come
around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's
way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such
language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it
would be out of the question?"

Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la
la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat
that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of
those I wouldn't have wasted
my time. When Hank kicks the sh!t out of you I'll be there, counting my
money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless
cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
 

Fatdog

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2000
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Wow :Q

You stayed at the door talking with them a whole lot longer than I would have.

But that nicely sums up my atitude as well.

 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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You guys are missing the point, Moonbeam is talking the truth and you guys are making fun of it. You lose is all I can say. Way to go Moonbeam.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
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Moonbeam, I love it! :) Thank you for another truth inspiring post... you are wise beyond your years. :)

Moonbeam's on the right track... and the best thing about it is that *because* of this, I am secure in my faith... not everyone will understand my point, but it makes it possible for me to block out the din of religious/atheist bickering...

Go in peace!
 

Netopia

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,793
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Moonbeam reminds me of a modern Galileo and some of you are a resurrection of the ancient Vatican. Moonbeam has offered that there may be something which is true but which you cannot yet (or maybe ever) measure with scientific instruments. You in turn comdemn the idea because it goes against your scientific sensibilities.

If the spirit realm is in fact true, what is there to ensure that you would ever be able to measure it with physical devices? Moonbeam offers that there is observable evidense in PEOPLE which can be examined... you can't examinie the thing itself, so you examine its effect on other things... isn't that sometimes done in science?

Watch out Moonbeam, next thing you know you'll be excommunicated from the scientific community and it could be hundreds of years before they admit your ideas were right in the first place!

Joe
 

chess9

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Apr 15, 2000
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I'mTyping:

Cute, but do you have an attribution? If you didn't write it, you should put it in quotes and give the author's name.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Moonbeam:

A few (Buddha, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed) are great "transmitters".

Many people don't have working "receivers".

Furthermore, many have their "receivers" turned off or to the wrong channel. Some hear only static and think they are receiving a transmission. Some are receiving the transmissions but not hearing them.
 

luv2chill

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2000
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Wow Moonbeam--I wholeheartedly agree.

thank you for putting that into such eloquent speech! I feel enlightened!

l2c
 

I'm Typing

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Oct 9, 1999
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Chess9: Wish I could say it was mine. Also wish I could say who wrote it originally...the .txt file has been on my pc for years...

Wait here is a link:
Hank text

I consider Moonbeam's post, while well intentioned, to be no more than Neffing.
 

~zonker~

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Jan 23, 2000
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It is only within the last three or at most four thousand years that we have any clear evidence that voluntary self-abandonment to some greater end, without fee or reward, was an acceptable idea to men, or that anyone had propounded it. Then we find appearing over the surface of human affairs, as patches of sunshine spread and pass over the hillsides on a windy day in spring, the idea that there is happiness in self-devotion greater than personal gratification or triumph, and a life of mankind different and greater and more important than the sum of all the individual lives within it. We have seen that idea become vivid as a beacon, vivid as sunshine caught and reflected dazzlingly by some window in the landscape, in the teachings of Buddha, Lao Tse, and, most clearly of all, of Jesus of Nazareth.

.....

As men have felt their way towards this new state of mind from the fierce self-centered greed and instinctive combativeness of the early paleolithic family group, they have sought to express the drift of their thoughts and necessities very variousy. They have found themselves in disagreement and conflict with old-establishes ideas, and there has been a natural tendancy to contradict these ideas flatly, to fly over to the absolute contrary.

H.G. Wells, Outline of History, 1920

.......

Some things never change
 

Elledan

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Jul 24, 2000
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In the future Humankind will exist out of linked brains. Individualism will slowly disappear until only semi-individuals are left. No place will be left for anything they don't all agree with. Humankind will finally be One race.

This process has already started when Humankind gained consciousness. It's our future.

Instead of looking backwards, we should look more forwards and study what is before us.