Some teachers are getting laid off, but what gets me...

[CPA]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
It's a perceived supply and demand issue akin to the mismanagement of corporations. The pool of people considered "qualified" to run a school system is relatively small. Most if not all have doctorates in Ed. possibly Masters in Administration but many are incapable of doing the job effectively. Sometimes they are sabotaged from within (no support/poor quality principals/teachers), outside (idiotic school boards, ignorant county/city boards or alderpeople), or personal (some people have multiple degrees and NO skills).

I'm not implying that a business mind would or could save education . . . just that people with masterful organizational/administrative skills are curiously absent at the upper echelons of business and education.

The problem is that they have degrees in Education, the one degree that doesn't have a body of knowledge to support it. It is a worthless degree.

 

[AstIsis]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
raise taxes

Yikes.....personally I vote for School Vouchers...choose where you want your child to go. That would certainly shock the public school system into action.

 

[newbiepcuser]

Has this been bought up to the press?. I'm sure you local news would love this kind of story.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
raise taxes

Cut the budget, too.
Oh wait...NJ governors have been pulling this crap for my entire lifetime and it hasn't worked. I think it's clear that tax hikes and budget cuts just are not effective.

The problem is that they have degrees in Education, the one degree that doesn't have a body of knowledge to support it. It is a worthless degree.

Body of knowledge in what way? A teacher must have twofold knowledge to be an effective teacher - intimate knowledge of the subject matter, AND intimate knowledge of effective methods of teaching. There's a lot more to it than standing in front of a classroom and blathering for an entire block/period.

But a big problem is that good teacher != good manager. Sure, you can get 20 kids fired about geometry, but that doesn't mean you can manage an organization from a business perspective.

 

[LH]

My home town, population 8500, the superintendent makes $120,000. The Dallas Superintendent makes like $300,000 a year + perks. A $120,000 is avg pay for a superintendent. If the woman is doing the books for the school district that means shes some sort of accountent, and $105,000 sounds about right depending on work experiance.

Also most teacher aides dont make much more than $6.00 as it is. Ive known a few, they only bring home $10000 a year(in TX).

 

[LH]

Also before you bitch about teachers aides pay most states do not require a degree of any kind. Texas just passed a law that goes into effect next year that teacher aides must have atleast a 2 year degree.

Schools are run by local school boards. Most of which are petty and typically undermine eachother or the superintendent. Dallas went through 3-4 Superintendents in 3 years because of pettiness.

 

[BamBam215]

Some districts are really f*cked up like that. In a local district they are firing special ed teachers and laying off some general ed teachers due to the budget cut as well. What surprises me is the firing of special ed teachers. They are so hard to come by and probably in the highest demand right now. Not all districts are that corrupted though. Just move around until you find a district with competent adminstratives in the school and school board But yeah this goes to prove that the education level is not only messed up at the classroom level (sh*tty teachers) but also high up as well. Maybe we should adopt the Japanese education system.

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: AstIsis

Originally posted by: FoBoT
raise taxes

Yikes.....personally I vote for School Vouchers...choose where you want your child to go. That would certainly shock the public school system into action.

i would support vouchers

my point is that unless the system is changed, they can't have it both ways

either chop stuff out of the schools, or get more to spend (raise taxes), there isn't a magic fix unless the system changes, which is unlikely

 

[BamBam215]

Originally posted by: LH
Also before you bitch about teachers aides pay most states do not require a degree of any kind. Texas just passed a law that goes into effect next year that teacher aides must have atleast a 2 year degree.

Schools are run by local school boards. Most of which are petty and typically undermine eachother or the superintendent. Dallas went through 3-4 Superintendents in 3 years because of pettiness.

In California, due to the "No Child Left Behind" bill, teachers aide must be enrolled fulltime and have completed 2 years of college (or 48 units). This is a good thing though because some shmuck could just be enrolled fultime, getting his financial aide and end up dropping his classes.

 

[human2k]

Bottomline: Supernintendo's are getting paid way too much.


How about someone go rallyup the antiwar protestors to help out with this cause?

 

[Red Dawn]

$6.00 an hour to deal with punk ass kids? Fsck that!

 

[reitz]

Originally posted by: Whisper
Yeah, it's pretty bad how just about every public school district treats their teachers...for having such a HUGELY important job and list of responsibilities (especially in special education/learning disability classrooms) they make nowhere near what they're worth.

Nowhere near what they're worth? Now I'm no enemy of teachers (my mother is one), but it really gets me when people complain about the poor, underpaid teachers.

...beginning teachers with a bachelor's degree earned an average of $27,989 in the 1999-2000 school year. The estimated average salary of all public elementary and secondary school teachers in the 1999-2000 school year was $41,820.

Source

I don't know about you, but I think that an average of almost $42,000 for nine months of work, all holidays off, sweet pensions, and in many cases indefinite job security (with tenure) is pretty good. With the unions they have in Pennsylvania, they can't even be held accountable for their job performance. The district I attended starts new teachers out at over $34,000 with just a bachelor's degree. Underpaid? I think not.

 

[yoda291]

Originally posted by: reitz

Originally posted by: Whisper
Yeah, it's pretty bad how just about every public school district treats their teachers...for having such a HUGELY important job and list of responsibilities (especially in special education/learning disability classrooms) they make nowhere near what they're worth.

Nowhere near what they're worth? Now I'm no enemy of teachers (my mother is one), but it really gets me when people complain about the poor, underpaid teachers.

...beginning teachers with a bachelor's degree earned an average of $27,989 in the 1999-2000 school year. The estimated average salary of all public elementary and secondary school teachers in the 1999-2000 school year was $41,820.

Source

I don't know about you, but I think that an average of almost $42,000 for nine months of work, all holidays off, sweet pensions, and in many cases indefinite job security (with tenure) is pretty good. With the unions they have in Pennsylvania, they can't even be held accountable for their job performance. The district I attended starts new teachers out at over $34,000 with just a bachelor's degree. Underpaid? I think not.

I think it's more that good teachers are underpaid and poor teachers are overpaid...but this applies in any industry I think. I believe the real issue is the upper echelons getting obscene amounts of money for little work.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: FoBoT
raise taxes

The problem is that they have degrees in Education, the one degree that doesn't have a body of knowledge to support it. It is a worthless degree.

Body of knowledge in what way? A teacher must have twofold knowledge to be an effective teacher - intimate knowledge of the subject matter, AND intimate knowledge of effective methods of teaching. There's a lot more to it than standing in front of a classroom and blathering for an entire block/period.

But a big problem is that good teacher != good manager. Sure, you can get 20 kids fired about geometry, but that doesn't mean you can manage an organization from a business perspective.

Many teachers and most administrators have a degree in Education. How the hell does that help in teaching math or history or English. Those subjects have a defined body of knowledge in which their foundation is developed on. Education does not, it is all subjective. You could develop your own effective methods of teaching without having a degree.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: AstIsis
Interesting that you mentioned this. My Mother is a teacher in Missouri and just informed me that they will not be getting pay raises this year due to budget cuts. They may even have to lay off some teachers. She also told me that the superintendent will be getting a pay raise.


Grrrr....I am not seeing how this is fair! :disgust:

Didn't the same thing recently happen with the airlines?

 

[Eli]

Yep.. There was a huge story about this on the local news the other day, called Tax Dollar Tycoons.

Most higher ups make insane salaries, when the school/whatever itself is struggling.

But really, what can you do? You can't logically reduce their salaries when other states are paying just the same, what's the incentive to stay in Oregon then?

 

[SagaLore]

This is why I think schools need to be privatized (with regulation). The parents have no choice where to put their kids unless theyt move to another district. Tax payers have no say who gets on these school boards. If education was paid directly by the parent, and there was competition allowed, parents would have the final say and schools would respond accordingly.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Eli
Yep.. There was a huge story about this on the local news the other day, called Tax Dollar Tycoons.

Most higher ups make insane salaries, when the school/whatever itself is struggling.

But really, what can you do? You can't logically reduce their salaries when other states are paying just the same, what's the incentive to stay in Oregon then?

Oregon was a really nice state to live in, I grew up there - had a lot of environmental whacko stuff washed into my brain though - too bad the Liberals are killing that state.

 

[rgwalt]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
It's a perceived supply and demand issue akin to the mismanagement of corporations. The pool of people considered "qualified" to run a school system is relatively small. Most if not all have doctorates in Ed. possibly Masters in Administration but many are incapable of doing the job effectively. Sometimes they are sabotaged from within (no support/poor quality principals/teachers), outside (idiotic school boards, ignorant county/city boards or alderpeople), or personal (some people have multiple degrees and NO skills).

I'm not implying that a business mind would or could save education . . . just that people with masterful organizational/administrative skills are curiously absent at the upper echelons of business and education.

Ah, something I agree with BBD on. Well, there are always firsts in everything.

The problem is that people that have the skills necessary to manage a school system are off working better, easier jobs making more money. Education is a thankless job, and finding the right people to run schools and districts is tough. School boards, municipalities, and parents treat the people that run public schools like crap. Sure there are people out there that are better qualified to do the job, but these people would never take the job and have to put up with all the head-aches.

Also, $120K for a superintendent is a reasonable salary, depending on the size of the district. Look at the quality you get for $120K/year. Think of the quality you would get if you paid the superintendent half that amount... Heck, I could run a school system for $60K or $80K a year, but I would probably not be the best candidate.

Ryan

 

[kt]

Originally posted by: human2k
My local K12 School district is in the same boat, but they have made some kinda proposal that they would lay off only half. 100K is way too much for a secretary unless she has PhD or something, cut her salary and higher more teachers.

Damnit.. it's just an eyesore having to see a word used incorrectly. It's "HIRE" damnit, not "HIGHER". To think that this is an educational discussion too.

 

[rgwalt]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
This is why I think schools need to be privatized (with regulation). The parents have no choice where to put their kids unless theyt move to another district. Tax payers have no say who gets on these school boards. If education was paid directly by the parent, and there was competition allowed, parents would have the final say and schools would respond accordingly.

In my district, we elect the school board members, so the tax payers DO have a say in who gets hired. The superintendent gets hired by the board so he isn't directly involved in politics and campaigning.

Ryan

 

[rgwalt]

Originally posted by: Medellon
Our super makes $165,000 not to mention the many perks and benefits. I teach math at a middle school and was nominated as teacher of the year by my peers. 1 week later I'm told that since I have only 5 years of senority I'm being surplused because of the budget crunch! Is this crazy or what? This is one of the reasons why I am getting out of education.

I'm sorry to hear that you are being cut/moved. My mom is an elementary librarian and her job has been cut. She doesn't think she will be able to get a library position anywhere else in the district, but she does have a contract so they have to give her a job somewhere. She is only a year away from taking early retirement, so she is considering retiring now to save herself the possibility of having to go back into the classroom in a school all the way across town. The sad thing is that she did a great job teaching the kids to read when the teachers couldn't.

Ryan

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Eli
Yep.. There was a huge story about this on the local news the other day, called Tax Dollar Tycoons.

Most higher ups make insane salaries, when the school/whatever itself is struggling.

But really, what can you do? You can't logically reduce their salaries when other states are paying just the same, what's the incentive to stay in Oregon then?

Oregon was a really nice state to live in, I grew up there - had a lot of environmental whacko stuff washed into my brain though - too bad the Liberals are killing that state.

I don't understand all the labeling of different people, it seems silly to me. What defines a liberal again?

Environmental whacko stuff? We need to be environmentally concious, we don't want our state to look like any states in the East.