Some questions for the OC pros...

[dripgoss]

Hey all you OCing pros I'm looking for some suggestions if you have a few seconds...

It's time to retire my old PIII 800EB/PC133/815e/GF2 machine, so I bit the bullet and I'm putting together a budget, stable but OC'able gaming system. After some research, here's what I have on the way:

P4 2.4B (ppl @ NewEgg are reporting C1's lately so chances are good)
Albatron PX845PEV pro
512MB CORSAIR XMS PC-3200LL (2-2-2-6-T1)

This stuff will be added to my existing Antec True430 PSU, Maxtor 40GB 7200RPM HDD, 52/24/52 CDRW, Saphire 64MB 8500LE (250/230) and Inwin 12 Bay Steel Server case.

My questions are this:

? What's a reasonable OC I should see from this stuff in terms of Mhz? Where should I start?
? I'm concerned about heat. What are some of the favored (Air or Passive, no H2O for me yet) HSF solutions out there in terms of quietness versus coolness?
? Does an aluminum case make that big a difference in dispursing case and CPU heat? Any good deals or notable Aluminum cases lately?
? What kind of thermal grease are you guys hip to these days? I hear about AS3 and that supercrazy-cool goop you can only get in Japan, but anyone else care to share?
What are some essential OC utils or benchmarks I'll need. I know there is a plethora of links on this forum, but I want to trim it down to some essentials for now...

Thanks all for your time!

 

[human2k]

If your building an Intel overclocking rig, you may want to look for the VID C1's, guys here are doing 3.2GHZ. I hear fry's online store outpost.com seems to be selling them. If you want a guranteed C1, excaliberpc.com has it for $7 more over neweggs.

 

[dripgoss]

Thanks for the tip human2k!

I had a credit with NewEgg and decided to cash in so I'll proly see what they send me first. So what's the deal with VID C1 then? Just a more tweaked process or something to bridge the gap to HT?

 

[ChampionAtTufshop]

Originally posted by: dripgoss
Thanks for the tip human2k!

I had a credit with NewEgg and decided to cash in so I'll proly see what they send me first. So what's the deal with VID C1 then? Just a more tweaked process or something to bridge the gap to HT?

from waht ive been able to piece together(never went in depth reading heh):

-lower vcore (from like 1.475-1.525 i think)
-crazy overclocker!

peepz are getting like 3ghz on stock voltage, if not mroe

see waht chip they sendyou
stepping is SL6RZ on the multiple vid ones
SL6EF are also aight ocers from waht ive seen

i would link you to a beginners how to sorda thing i wrote, but the site is down lol

only thing you can do on p4's is to up the cpu freq
start by jumps of like 5mhz at a time,and see if you can completel boot into windows each time (not just post)
then run prime95 (google for that) for about 10min once you start getting more than 300mhz above stock (so around 2650-2700mhz run prime95)
if it works for 10min (or a few of those iteration tests) and doesnt fail, up freq more

keep going until it doesnt post
then, dpeneind on mobo, clear the cmos and go up to wat you were at before, but this time raise vcore as well (make sure ACTUAL vcore is beloe 1.675-1.7v...it should be the vcore reported in windows, or you could go to hardware monitor in bios and see what vcore is,...somtimes boards overvolt, sometimes undervolt...i dunno about albatron though)

make sure you have ram set to 1:1 with cpu freq, and loosen timings as well for now (bigger numbers=looser timings)


programs to download:
prime95 - stress test cpu
memtest86 - stress test ram/cpu (enable cache on all tests by pressing C-2-3-1-2-0-space when it starts up)
latest sandra version - benchmarking app....although synthetic, its most widely used
wcpuid - tells you actual speed of cpu
motherboard monitor 5 - temperature/votlage monitor (i dunno if it works on albatron mobos though....do they have something similar made just for albatron??)

also, keep an eye on your temps (above 60-65C = no good...look into better cooling )

for cooling: stock is aight...not too special (not recommended for high speeds either)
id get:
swiftech mcx4000
alpha pal8942
thermalright slk900 (the p4 version....socket 478 if thats how it is denoted)

any 80mm fan with a noise:cfm ratio you like
id recommend about 40CFM minimum so you dont cut oc short via not having a fan be able to dissipate heat away from heatsink fast enough)

//edit
damn thats a long post lol
if you have ne other questions, pm me/email me
i tend not to keep track of threads ive posted in for lnoger than a day lol

 

[dripgoss]

Hory clap!

Excellent and informative post, champ! Thanks! What kinda thermal paste/grease/otherwise-compound are you partial to? I know it's just a matter of time before I ditch the stock cooling and thermal pad thingy...

 

[ChampionAtTufshop]

arctic silver 2 i like the best
but seeing as how thats not in production anymore
arctic silver 3 is just fine

just remeber, paper thin layer (if not thinner)

and if you do decide to stick with sotck cooling for a bit, if not forever, definitey scrape off the thermal pad
its absolute crap for overclocking, and once you use it, its a real PITA to get off the cpu ihs

so might as well do away wiht te problem to begin with, and use some thermal paste instead of that right off the bat

forgot to answer another qusetion heh:
aluminum cases dont do much, if anything, for cooling
just have good unobstucted airflow (rounded cables work wonders...or just tuck them away on top of hd or wherever)
a front bottom intake and rear exhaust is bare minimum for case flow
..it always owrks ALOT better ifyou chop out the grills as the tiny holes REALLY obstuct air flow...if you want to see the difference, power on the computer when fan is hooked up and feel airflow (press delete to go to bios so you dont startup all the way lol, u just want to test the airflow) and then even just hold it next to the grill and see how much air comes out the back...)

get one of those regular grills you see if you want something to be there rather than just a fan

 

[dripgoss]

Wow, thanks again champ for the killer pointers! I would definitely be interested in your noob guide when the linky comes back online.. :^)

I should get my stuff today and I'm going to try to round up some AS 2/3 tonight...

On the subject of thermal compound, should I apply a super thin layer to the heatsink as well as the chip die? I've heard some people say yes and others say no. I know you don't want to put too much material between the two metals, but I would think it's like gluing two pieces of wood together in wood shop or something: apply a thin layer of glue to both pieces in order to gain maximum coverage. I know we're not gluing anything together here, but any thoughts?

 

[dripgoss]

If anyone has been reading, I just got my stuff from NewEgg and I did in fact get a P4 2.4B SL6EF (Costa Rica, Pack Date 1-20-03). Hopefully I'll get some decent OC'ing between this, the XMS 3200LL and the Albatron board.

I went to a few local comp stores on my lunch break and couldn't find AS3, so I just bought the little pouches of generic Antec thermal grease for like $3. Ifigure it has to beat that Intel pad, but hopefully that will work until I can round up some AS3...

 

[ChampionAtTufshop]

this is how i do it

(i duno how it will work with generic grease though, it might have a different consistency)

take plastic bag, stretch it over finger, put thin squirt (for amd its a bead, but for p4's ihs i guess a squirt would be in order) and spread a paper thin layer on the core (i guess ihs for the p4), wahtever residue is left on the bag, take that to the heatsink and rub it in using a circular motion

try not to get a buildup of thermal grease on it, you just want to fill the pits in

 

[dripgoss]

I did exactly as you suggested:

I put a little dot on the center of the chip. Then I put a clear ziplock baggie around my finger and "massaged" the grease outward in small circles, frequently wiping the excess on a paper towel until I could actually see the writing on the chip and then repeated the process a few more times for good measure. It started to get harder to spread, so I figured it's either getting there or it's coagulating. Then I took what was on the baggie and rubbed it into the middle of the heatsink. It looked ike it was discoloring, but I was using a clear baggie to make sure no ink or foreign material was coming off along with the grease. I wish I could find pics of someone doing this so I know exactly how much to put on.. BTW - that Intel stock pad thingy was a PITA to get off completely WITHOUT even heating it up first! I wonder what kind of adhesive they use on that stuff?!?

Since I still have my case apart, I wont be able to get accurate temp reads yet, but so far the burn in is going well at stock. I'll start tweaking slowly tonight and report back.

I'm in compu-heaven so far. I did a WinXP Pro full install (to the desktop only, no drivers yet) in a little over 12 minutes! Woot!

 

[ChampionAtTufshop]

yup lol
i remember my xp1700+
oced it right when i got it to 1800mhz and the installation flew (same os) but didnt count the minutes lol
formatting my 60gb is what took time (i do quick format at times, but once in a while i like to do the full thing lol)

anyways, that thermal grease installation looks to be good
its probably the grease coagulating

i dunno what they use to stick on the p4 thermal pad, but yeah its hella hard to get off
...maybe they just heat up the pad and stick that side to the heatsink and let the other side cool off until you use it...it makes sense

my friend decided to use thermal pad once, and thenhe watned to oc and i told him to get anohter heatsink (volcano7+...its not that bad, comp is in a basement so its always nice and cold down there lol) and we used quite a bit of isopropyll trying to get it cleaned off....then i pulled out a zippo and used the fluid lol, worked like a charm

 

[dripgoss]

Yeah, I first tried to peel off with a razor blade and had to finally use one of those adhesive remover pens (the kind that smell like oranges) to get the rest of the crap off. On the directions (whoa, I actually read the directions this time!!) of the antec grease I bought, it specifically said not to use citrus based adhesive removal stuff to take off the existing pad. But I figured if I buff it out real good, there shouldn't be a problem...(I hope)... Great. Now when my proc heats up, my basement will smell like fruit... LOL

 

[Duvie]

Hey...I have roughly same system as yours and roughly same chip.....

First thing is to install software at default speed which it sounds like you are doing......

Install OS and special packs, them mobo drivers, and then vid card stuff.....I only install vid card at this point and don't worry about sound....

I then would make sure memory is at 1:1 ratio and then start bumping up the fsb...Go straight to 150...trust me....


Also the albatron will undervolt and so 1.525v set in bios by the board autodetecting the chips voltage will actually produce 1.45-1.47v actually being delivered. When loaded that may fall as low as 1.4-1.42v....

I would actually raise vcore up to 1.6v in the bios as that should result in 1.53-1.54v in the bios....please verify this on your system. Get speedfan and watch the first vcore stting...It will fluctuate a little....

So 150fsb with ram at 1:1 and still default 2.5v and cpu at 1.6v to counteract undervolting.....

Boots up fine??? Then run prime95 for 1 hour...passes??? then run memtest for 1-2 passes...passes??? Then bump up fsb 5 more to 155...repeat above steps...feel free to run sandra benches and any other program you can record results for a speed by speed comparison. The first time it does not pass prime95 or memtest raise vcore .025v and run the test again....

If you need any help pm me....

 

[dripgoss]

Thanks Duvie!

This is gonna be mostly my wife's machine, so I have to be real careful not to mess anything up (or take longer than expected... heh). She just bought Shadowbane and is too anxious to get the upgrade done!

I haven't changed any chipset, CPU, voltage or RAM settings in the bios yet. But I did have to install some drivers for the video and the intel INF so I could use my mouse on my USB ports. But other then that, it's pretty default so far.

It's been running at stock now for almost 48 hours, but I'm getting a little worried about temps already. Even at stock and with my case sides off, my temp readings in the bios chow CPU temp between 86F and 96F. I think a better HSF and thermal compound are in order already. Maybe I put too much grease on? I don't know, I could read the writing on the chip through the grease, so I thought it was thin enough layer...

Also, should I do anything with my RAM timings yet? I have a 512 stick of XMS3200LLPT (2-2-2-6-T1). I think the BIOS (SPD) auto configs it as like 2-3-3-7-T1, but I'm not sure what timings should shoot for yet...

 

[dripgoss]

Oh also, I don't know if anyone has some hard info on this, but I've read the new Albatron boards have capacitors which are "notoriously" close to the HSF. Now, I didn't notice they were too close with my stoc HSF, but if I were to buy let's say a PAL8942T, would that be compatible? Of course Albatron's site says it recommends Intel HSF's, but the last thing I want is go melting caps on my mobo!!

 

[MistaTastyCakes]

86 and 96 F is fine.. under full load I'm at like 130F and stable No worries!

Now if you're running at 86 *C* - then you got a problem, hehe

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: dripgoss
Oh also, I don't know if anyone has some hard info on this, but I've read the new Albatron boards have capacitors which are "notoriously" close to the HSF. Now, I didn't notice they were too close with my stoc HSF, but if I were to buy let's say a PAL8942T, would that be compatible? Of course Albatron's site says it recommends Intel HSF's, but the last thing I want is go melting caps on my mobo!!

I have that hsf and ont worry I have no issues getting it to work...The alpha uses same holes the hsf retention clips uses and actually the overhang goes no further then the retail clip does....totally safe and easy fit....


Those temps are fine...switch to celsius as most use that as a comparison....96f is only like 35c which is awesome...

 

[dripgoss]

Ahh, now I can't remember! I hope it was 96F not 96C!! heh...

Thanks guys for putting up with an oc noob. I'll try to see if I can pick up that Alpha and some Artic Silver 3 cheapish online as I visited all of my local comp stores and no luck.

Any thoughts on my RAM? Should I go ahead and set BIOS to 2-2-2-6-T1 like the RAM is advertised at, or leave it at the BIOS's relaxed defaults for now?

 

[Duvie]

When testing it out leave it relaxed until you settle on a final speed and fsb...then push the ram up until you find its limit and then sit back and smile...

 

[dripgoss]

OK, I stepped up from stock to 2.88Ghz - 1.6v, 160FSB, 2.5x mem (for an even 400Mhz RAM speed) and 2.5-6-3-3 on the timings and everything booted and ran just fine. For giggles, I tried to up my RAM timings to the advertised 2-5-2-2 and got a memory checksum error. Cleared jumpers and set it all back to known-safe settings and all was god again.

I ran SiSoft Sandra 2003 Burn In wizard on max overnight. This morning before work, I checked my temps and it shows the case temp higher then the CPU temp which can't be right - but hey, at least the comp wasn't locked up! It was early, so maybe I read the temps wrong tho... Any suggestions to my above settings? (ie - where should I go from here?)

So far I think cooling is going to be my limiting factor, so I'll check to see how it's doing when I get home. Hopefully, I can eventually hit that 3.24 mark like Duvie!! heh...

 

[vietofmars]

Hello when i go onto excaliberpc.com i do see that they sell the p4 c1 stepping byitself.
I see a combo though that am interested in a ABIT BH7 & Intel P4 2.4GHz 533FSB (Box) (SL6EF) Special Combo.
I'm just want to make sure that combo comes with an p4 c1 stepping ?
Thanks ahead for the help
or should i get the same board as dripgoss Albatron PX845PEV pro
cause i too would be ocing.

 

[dripgoss]

Well, I'm not familiar with the BH7, but I've read it's is a nice board. Having worked at a laptop manufacturer that used a lot of ECS boards, I'm personally a little leary that ECS is manufacturing Abit's boards from what I've heard. I know Abit will have it's own QC, but it's just more of a gut feeling than based on any factual input. I've even owned a few Abit boards in the past, my las one being a BX6r2, but I just picked up the PX845PEV Pro because it hit my budget and it allowed some very flexible OC'ing CPU and memory adjustments in the BIOS. The only thing I wish they would have included would are more USB ports (even though there are plenty of on-board headers) and ATA133 since I have 2 of the Maxtor 40GB ATA133 FD HDD's. Also, it's being reported by other users that temp readings are a little goofy via software monitoring apps - but what's new there?!

So far, I love this board. Stable and easy. And the "Watch Dog Timer" feature keeps me from frying the board from a bad OC attempt. For $80 it's a steal...

 

[Duvie]

Try not using 2,5,2,2.....This timing may be hard to reach on most mobos regardless of chips specs....try 2,6,2,2....

Now that 1.6v is bios set vcore, right??? You should list actual which should be 1.54v or damn near just default..

 

[dripgoss]

Originally posted by: Duvie
Try not using 2,5,2,2.....This timing may be hard to reach on most mobos regardless of chips specs....try 2,6,2,2....

Now that 1.6v is bios set vcore, right??? You should list actual which should be 1.54v or damn near just default..

Yeah, it sank harder than the Titanic on me when I tried 2-5-2-2!!! It does 2-5-2-2 (SPD default) just fine if I don't OC...

Yeah, that 1.6v is BIOS vcore. Sorry for the noob-ness of this, but where can I tell what actual vcore is? I need to spend some more time with this board to learn it's in's and out's...

Also Duvie, what is the best/newest BIOS for this board? Or what BIOS are you using? I've been following another thread that you and a few other users of this mobo are posting where someone said they were using the 1.09 BIOS. On Albatron's site under the PX845PEV Pro BIOS section, it only shows the newest BIOS as 1.08. 1.09 looks like a BIOS they're using for the GEV series boards. Any ideas?