Some questions about gun control.

[Muerto]

It seems like every week a thread pops up that either attacks guns and calls them evil, or gives another example of how an "evil" gun has saved a life. These threads often become some of the biggest flame wars on the forums. Niether side seems to listen to what the other has to say. I'm not trying to attack anyone I'm just curious about a few things.

Now, first of all, I am not from the US I'm Canadian, so I'm not going to say what the gun control laws in the US should be. It's not my country so it's not any of my business.

Also, I don't own any firearms and I don't see myself ever owning one. But I still believe that if people want to own firearms they should be allowed to.

ONLY INTELLIGENT ANSWERS PLEASE!!! Do NOT turn this into a flame war. I'll ask the mods to lock it if it does.


Every year there are many instances where a young child gets hold of a gun and ends up killing him/herself and/or someone else. In almost every one of these cases the gun was not locked up and the ammunition was not stored separately. This is often one of the biggest arguments for the anti-gun types. If the gun and ammo were locked up separately the accident would never have happened.

The counter argument to that is what if someone had broken into that family's house and threatened to kill them? If the gun an ammo are stored separately there might not be enough time to get them both, load the gun, and then stop the attacker.


1. What should be done to prevent children from getting hold of guns, yet still have them readily available for defense incase of emergency?


My second question regards school shootings. There have been quite a few school shootings in the US over the last few years (and a few in Canada as well), the worst being Collumbine. These are probably the most tragic cases of guns being abused. Pro gun people and groups like the NRA often respond with "Guns don't kill children. Children kill children." But these children killed children with guns. Another popular saying is guns are tools like anything else. I believe this as well, but they are tools for killing. You can kill someone with a crow bar or hammer, but it's a lot easier with a gun.


2. What should be done to prevent future school shootings?


Studies have often shown that if children are educated in the proper use of guns they are less likely to abuse them. Anti-gun people often say that you're just teaching a child how to kill. Teaching a child how to use a gun is giving that child a very powerful weapon. There are many children who are much more likely to abuse guns than others. There were some kids I knew from high school that were extremely angry and often picked on. The thought of them having guns was terrifying. They exactly fit the profile of the type who would do a school shooting or something else.


3. How do you tell which children should be educated about guns and which shouldn't?


Thanks for reading, I know that was a long post. Again, please give intelligent constructive answers to the questions. We don't need more firearm flame wars.

 

[kamiam]

there is a lot of hype and misinformation from the media anti gun groups ect...some figures from your sister countries

crime rate increases in Australia and Great Britian
and by the way the figures are from the govt even though the site isn't

 

[Muerto]

I've seen those reports from Australia and the UK. I don't believe in banning guns completely. Solutions like that never work.

And yes I know that the media can blow things way out of proportion. They do that with just about everything.

 

[guitronics]

Well, the laws on the books didn't prevent the tragedy at columbine.It was against the law to have a gun on school property,yet it happened.In fact, the massacre could have been cut short, saving lives, had the principal,teachers,or "Safety Officers" been trained, and allowed to defend the students under attack.

The NRA has an excellent program to teach gun safety to children called "Eddie Eagle".The stinking leftists want no part of anything linked to the NRA,so apparently they are willing to let innocent kids die, instead.

At last count there were more than 22,000 gun laws on the books in the U.S.,that includes federal,state,city,county,township,etc.

The U.S. has the distinct history of being a nation which reluctantly rebelled against their colonial government.The militia consisted of all able-bodied men,boys, and even women.The citizenry were the Militia.

America's history is founded on the citizen's armed resistance.Violence is as american as apple pie.

Not too long ago, kids actually took their guns(rifles,shotguns) to school, so they could go hunting after school was out.

Yes, it is negligent to allow access for a small child to a firearm.It's also negligent to allow access to common houshold cleaning chemicals,knives,bats,chains,and auto keys.

I guess it all depends on the kid, and his/her maturity level.

Should a child be prepared to defend their home, and any people in it?

Should anyone have the right of self-defense?

 

[AndrewR]

The answer to all problems posed lies in both education and good parenting. All school shooting that I can think of involved illegally procured firearms (Daddy's locked gun cabinet, bought from someone else, etc.). If the parents involved would have taught the kids that guns are not something to be taken lightly, that they are extremely dangerous and should NEVER be handled except in the parents' presence, then perhaps the kids would not have had their fascination with guns and killing because the weapons would be demystified.

Further, the parents of these kids need to be involved in their lives. It still boggles my mind that those psychos in Columbine were able to construct bombs and amass an arsenal of weaponry right under their parents' noses. A good parent would have seen that something was amiss and investigated. There are limits to a child's freedom, contrary to what some liberals might assert, and parents need to enforce those limits much to their rebellious child's chagrin.

I will continue to collect firearms after my wife and me have a child. I will buy a gun safe and keep them tightly locked, and the kid(s) will NOT know the combination. For early warning, we have a dog. Or, I suspect that in the very near future, biometrics will provide easy ways to lock guns up tight while retaining fast access (fingerprint recognition, for instance).

 

[Muerto]

I also think that one of the main reasons why guns are so popular in the US is because it was founded out of war. And the line in the constitution that says everyone has the right to bear arms adds to it as well.]



"I guess it all depends on the kid, and his/her maturity level."

And that is the decision of the parents. If the parents teach their child to use a gun and then the child either accidentaly or purposely kills someone, should the parents be held at least partially responsible? After all they did teach their child how to use that gun.

"Should anyone have the right of self-defense? "

Yes they should. If your life is in jepordy do what ever you can to protect it.

 

[Muerto]

"There are limits to a child's freedom, contrary to what some liberals might assert"

I may be wrong but isn't is usually the republicans who want more freedom and the liberals who want more gun CONTROL laws?

But yes I agree that many parents should be much more involved in their children's lives. Good parenting can prevent most if not all of intances where children abuse guns, IMO.

 

[kamiam]

it's funny that those that let their emotions rule their arguements instead of the facts aren't posting... guess it's past their bedtimes

 

[Muerto]

"it's funny that those that let their emotions rule their arguements instead of the facts aren't posting... guess it's past their bedtimes "

LOL....they always seem like they're 10.

 

[Amused]

<< Every year there are many instances where a young child gets hold of a gun and ends up killing him/herself and/or someone else. >>



Um, no. Actually, every year it's LESS. We're just more likely to hear about it. In fact, child deaths do to unintentional shootings has been falling steadly for decades now. Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995, and by 1998 that number was under 110. For children aged 0-4, that number is 30.

So No, there are not &quot;more each year,&quot; but less each year.

1. What should be done to prevent children from getting hold of guns, yet still have them readily available for defense incase of emergency?

Parental responsibility. Hold the gun owner responsible if his child, or a child invited into his home uses his gun to harm themselves, or someone else. Any storage law is invasive, and impossible to enforce without inspections that violate our Fouth Amendment rights.

2. What should be done to prevent future school shootings?

Stop glorifying them. I personally believe the latest wave of school shootings are copy cat crimes for attention. Also, we come back to parental responsibility. In nearly every case, the parents were woefully inadequate in the supervision and discipline of their children.

3. How do you tell which children should be educated about guns and which shouldn't?

Teaching ALL children gun safety is key here. ANYBODY, no matter how ignorant they are about guns, can pick one up and use it easily. So teaching them gun safety is NOT going to make them more likely to harm themselves or somebody else intetionally or not. Teaching gun safety and respect is as vital as teaching a child not to play in the street, sex education, not to use drugs, etc.

After you've taught them gun safety and respect, YOU --the parent-- must then judge their level of maturity and ability to handle the resposibility of handling a loaded weapon. If you feel they are ready, then by all means allow them to come with you to the gun range and learn how to properly use a firearm. If they are not mature enough, stick with basic gun safety and don't let them handle a gun.

 

[rmeijer]

<< it's funny that those that let their emotions rule their arguements instead of the facts aren't posting... guess it's past their bedtimes >>

Kamian - that article you posted wasn't exactly what I would call a very &quot;factual&quot; representation of the crime trends in Australia and Britian.

 

[Czar]

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/latestap/A723-2001Jun14.html

It might not just the guns that are damaging children. Better parenting and less talk about school shooting and holding the parents responsible would be the best way to prevent it.

 

[damocles]

It's too late in the morning down here to answer this fully now but those Australian figures are extremely hand picked and misleading. I'm not sure about the data from the UK

 

[MrBond]

<< But yes I agree that many parents should be much more involved in their children's lives. Good parenting can prevent most if not all of intances where children abuse guns, IMO. >>



Muerto, I couldn't agree more. I grew up in a house where my father kept a loaded pump shotgun behind his bedroom door for home defense. The chamber was empty, but it took one pump to ready it. We were told that if we even TOUCHED the gun, we'd feel the business end of the belt. When I was old enough, my father enrolled me in a hunters saftey course that taught me the safe use of firearms, bowhunting equiptment, etc.

I also had a &quot;less then perfect&quot; high school experience. I was smarter then most, and not on the football team, so I was subject to the normal torture &quot;nerds&quot; experience. Did I ever consider harming my tormenters? Many times, but there was always this voice in the back of my mind saying &quot;Tom, you can't do that, they're just kids and besides, you were raised better then that&quot; I always wanted my parents to be proud of me, and I knew by doing something like that, they wouldn't be, and I'd be leaving a mark on our name (and in a small town, thats the LAST thing you want). I made them proud my excelling instead, and they couldn't have been happier when I graduated 1st in my class (wasn't really a huge acomplishment at my HS, but hey, it looked good).

I was raised right, I believe that today parents just don't take enough time to do that. We always had dinner together, and they were always around. I hope I can give my children the same kind of upbringing I had....

 

[rmeijer]

damocles -

The UK study really wasn't discussing the effects of gun control per se, so I don't see its relevance. Britian has had fairly strong gun regulations for quite some time now.

 

[Nomerc]

Gun control should begin around the ago of 3 to 5 if you own weapons. Sit down with your child or children and talk to them about weapons. Do it on their level, tell them this is a daddies' toy and you do not play with daddy's toys. Unload the weapon before you bring them into the room and breach it. Let them touch the weapon, if you have handguns use one of each type if you have them, do the same with the long guns. Tell them they are not to play with anything like this, here at home or at a friend's house. Tell them this is a not a toy and if someone tries to show them anything like it to go tell an adult. When they get older you can explain more. This is what I did with my two sons and it removed their fascination with weapons.

I agree that it is up to the parents to teach their children about the dangers associated with all weapons. If you own weapons you should teach them the proper ways to handle them when they are mature enough. The NRA programs are a very good ways to teach all children about weapon safety when they are mature enough. I feel all children should be taught weapon safety by local law enforcement when they first start school. I am not talking about how to load and handle weapons, just basic weapon safety for their age. Like not to handle a weapon if an adult is not present, not to point any weapon towards someone, no matter what. Not play with any kind of weapon.

I am also aware some readers of this will disagree with me. I grew up with weapons in my home, and at a young age I was taught not to play with or handle them. I was taught all weapons are to be respected because if you don't respect them you can hurt or kill someone. Later I was taught the proper way to handle and shoot. The main thing I was taught was, if I did not know how one properly handle a weapon, to ask before touching it. My sons are 5 and 8 now and when they ask why I have weapons, I tell them so we can protect ourselves and to hunt with.

I don't use the word gun because all guns are weapons, no matter what the make or type it is, or the intended use. It is a tool and if you don't respect it, and handle it correctly, you could hurt yourself or someone else.

I am not sure if this is off topic, sorry if it is. I am just trying to give an example of one way to teach children about weapons.

Edited to fix a typo.

 

[Nomerc]

ChocolatSweetie this is not my thread and I am not a Mod but remarks like yours are UNCALLED FOR.

 

[Valnir]

1. What should be done to prevent children from getting hold of guns, yet still have them readily available for defense incase of emergency?

Lets put technology to good use. How hard would it be to make a lock for a gun that could unlocked by verifying the owners thumbprint?? Make a single purpose super micro computer that first stores the owner's print (* loading this is done by the gun shop after the person has been approved *), then to unlock the gun the person places their thumb on the little scanner that checks to see if the print matches. The gun then relocks once no body heat is detected.

Don't know if thats even possible right now, but definately don't see why it wouldn't be in the future.

Course hardcore teaching the children would also be a good thing.

2. What should be done to prevent future school shootings?

Education plain and simple. If a kid wants to get a gun, he doesn't have to steal from his relatives. He can just as easily get them from his local dealer. Since guns have become a big part of the drug trafficers trade. If guns were banned completely, there would still be plenty in the hands of the bad guys. Course that way only the bad guys and cops would have them, leaving us SOL.

3. How do you tell which children should be educated about guns and which shouldn't?

You teach them all. But you also need to teach their parents what signs to look out for. But you also have to teach the kids that today's form of discrimination (* popular kids vs the outsiders *) is absolutely unacceptable. And the schools should make policies as such.

 

[snakesnfrogs]

<< I couldn't control my penis, and in stuck it in my gun, and I couldn't get it out. Then I accidently fired.... and now I have no penis. >>






did you put the gun to your head and fire as well? because you don't seem to have much of a brain either

 

[Tominator]

Valnir

Several ways to do what you suggest have been explored.

Electronics are not reliable for this purpose. Water, gun oil, recoil and heat would render it inoperable in short order. It is not impossible, but not feasable. To get a reliable system would cost much more than the gun and ALL electronics have a very short life under adverse conditions.

The cops would not go for it, nor would the owners of the firearm. Forget the military as well.

Education is the key.

 

[AndrewR]

Actually, Tominator, the cops are looking at just such a system for the future. I was just watching a report on police weaponry (or something like that), but it touched on the sometimes very problematic issue of cops being shot with their own weapons. Police departments are looking into some kind of electronic way to prevent that from occurring in the future though I think it was predicated on some sort of key (electronic -- emits a signal to a certain distance from the officer's uniform) rather than on the officer's fingerprints.

As to whether or not it will be implemented, time will tell. I suspect that large departments such as NYPD or LAPD will be the first to put a system like that into place given that they have the resources to buy the weapons.

As far as I recall, the military has also looked into similar systems, to prevent the enemy from using captured weapons. I haven't heard anything recently on that though. With the recent upsurge in interest in the LandWarrior system (high tech computer aids for individual soldiers -- they carry a computer on their belt, basically), I wouldn't be too surprised to see some sort of &quot;friend recognition&quot; system on the weapons carried once that's implemented because of the level of integration the system grants the wearer (to command and control).

 

[kamiam]

rmeijer instead of just providing LIPSERVICE I don't see you trying to refute any of my facts w/ your own facts... care to elaborate???

 

[PrinceofWands]

The threads are correct in that electronic identification methods do exist, and so far have proven costly an ineffective. However the newest attempt that I've read about (and I basically spend every waking moment studying computers or security) is a proximity device for law enforcement. The officer wears a locked bracelet on each arm. The bracelet is keyed to a small locking device in the sidearm. When the weapon is more than like 32&quot; away from the bracelet, the weapon WILL NOT discharge. In fact the magazine won't release and the slide will not move. This came about because one of the biggest injuries to police officers is from their own weapon. It's a wonderful concept that I hope they work with. It doesn't work terribly well for home defense however.

I use a pushbutton trigger lock on my sidearm and tactical shotgun, and a key trigger lock on all weapons that I don't use day to day. My sidearm and shotgun are fully loaded and chambered, but safe unless you know the combo (and it's very easy to do, allowing for easy release in emergencies). My ammunition is kept locked in a storage locker, the key stays mainly with me.

My daughter has known since she could sit up that daddy has guns, and that if she touches them she can get a boo-boo that will NEVER heal, and if I ever catch her touching a gun or weapon I'll ground her, paddle her, and make her unhappy till she's old enough to live on her own. In truth as soon as she gets a couple more years (she's almost 6 now) I'll start training. Furthermore she will take part in community and special programs to help her become more responsible (martial arts being the primary of these).

1. What I described above should help a lot.

2. What I described above should help a lot. Also, train the staff on what to look for in students. Train the parents on what to look for AND GET THEM INVOLVED. Any parent that thinks it's the schools responsibility to teach their children should lose those children. I'm tired too, I have bad days too...but my daughters safety comes first. Also theres a general problem with society - too many kids, too much poverty - too much hate - too much pressure. All these things and more contribute and need to be addressed to keep our schools safe.

3. There's never a reason not to educate anyone about anything. Knowledge is power. Teach everyone everything you can.

 

[Ulfwald]

One of the things that we can do is teach RESPECT to all children. Teach them to respect life, and what gun can do to a life.

 

[lowfatbaconboy]

yes england has more robberies but the US has more murders so what would u rather have happen to you be robbed or murdered?

duh duh if i had a gun i could stop a robber