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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
While Affirmative Action is imperfect due to the fact that it requires gender, race, or other qualities to be a factor, it's still somewhat necessary. Look at the GOP for example and the current candidates. If it were up to them and Affirmative Action didn't exist, then many things that only affect certain races would take place. Look at Santorum that doesn't want women to have proper access to their own reproductive decisions. Or Gingrich who thinks speaking Spanish means you live in a ghetto. Or Romney who thinks the very poor are doing just fine. Or Ron Paul who has many questionable ties to very racist groups and people.

You hate Affirmative Action for what it does. Unfortunately it's due to people with your mindset (from your posting history) that makes there be a NEED for Affirmative Action. Sadly, it's a biased law that's required to counteract biased actions of mostly conservative mindset douchebags who think that minorities, women, and homosexuals deserve to be treated as less of human beings than other people.
Maybe supporters of Affirmative Action in general and California specifically needs to spend more time keeping blacks already in their colleges from dropping out at disproportionately rates to both other races and in comparison to other peer colleges. IMHO, it's pretty fucked up that you are keen to admit blacks to make your racial makeup numbers look good, but don't give a shit if they stick around to get their diploma or not.

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Maybe supporters of Affirmative Action in general and California specifically needs to spend more time keeping blacks already in their colleges from dropping out at disproportionately rates to both other races and in comparison to other peer colleges. IMHO, it's pretty fucked up that you are keen to admit blacks to make your racial makeup numbers look good, but don't give a shit if they stick around to get their diploma or not.

Thank Reagan for making our universities for profit entities when he was governor. This is the kind of mess you get in by bringing complicated issues of the human condition into the cold machinery of the profit motive. Everyone starts BSing to keep up the bottom line instead of doing their actual jobs. Colleges now are not there to educate, they are a place to buy a glorified and very expensive high school diploma. (since the actual free public school systems now have been cut to the bone)
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
4
0
Blame what has happened 40 years ago. If the problem was visible; why has not the other governors/legislature made changes.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,528
621
126
Maybe supporters of Affirmative Action in general and California specifically needs to spend more time keeping blacks already in their colleges from dropping out at disproportionately rates to both other races and in comparison to other peer colleges. IMHO, it's pretty fucked up that you are keen to admit blacks to make your racial makeup numbers look good, but don't give a shit if they stick around to get their diploma or not.

Nice try but affirmative action is more than just admittance but also providing those in school with resources. Thus, affirmative action would also assist in improving those graduation rates. How do I know? When I was in school, I used to be a tutor for students of color in my program. Something still needed by your graph.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Blame what has happened 40 years ago. If the problem was visible; why has not the other governors/legislature made changes.
California's University systems have gone to shit since Reagan did this, not only that but student loans are the biggest debt Californians have dragging them down. But yeah, of course this contradicts your magical hand fundamentalist free market fairy tale -so just divert. Par for the course for you silly idealists.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
44,156
3,769
136
"Sorry EagleKeeper is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

Still? The tag says 'elite member', nothing about still being a moderator.
Sorry, but Doug has certain candid . . . photos. D:
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,491
2,994
126
  • Communists: Equal Outcome
  • Americans: Equal Opportunity
The contrast is plain as day, and what this subject is all about.

The two ideologies cannot be reconciled under the same policy. It is not American to take from someone based on the color of their skin, nor to forcibly provide an equal outcome. That sort of government regulation is foreign to a free nation where everyone is to be treated equal.

When the people vote to uphold the American ideal of equal opportunity the elite ruling class descends upon them in protest. Using courts and elected officials to overrule the will of the people. To force equal outcomes.

One more reason to disavow a government that has Leftists in it. Oh don't feel special, we're doing everything we can to make sure you feel the same way about us. It's a battle to the end.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
4
0
California's University systems have gone to shit since Reagan did this, not only that but student loans are the biggest debt Californians have dragging them down. But yeah, of course this contradicts your magical hand fundamentalist free market fairy tale -so just divert. Par for the course for you silly idealists.
therer have been plenty of opportunities to straighten out the mess. The people of California and their electoral Representatives have chosen not to.

By making something have a cost; it encourages value of the product.

If students want to pay $100K for a basket weaving education, let them.
They knew going in that there were not the jobs to justify spending the costs of $25K each year. Graduating from UCB or UCLA still does not mean that you have to have a job - it means that you should have to earn it.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
California's University systems have gone to shit since Reagan did this, not only that but student loans are the biggest debt Californians have dragging them down. But yeah, of course this contradicts your magical hand fundamentalist free market fairy tale -so just divert. Par for the course for you silly idealists.


Actually, black graduation rates went up all the way through Reagan's governorship, and only started going down late in Jerry Brown's. Rates started going back up under another Republican Governor, Pete Wilson. I added the colored zones below to show the terms of the governors. And guess what, graduation rates have gone up dramatically for blacks in California colleges since Prop 209, quoting per the paper linked below:

While minority freshman college enrollment rates at California’s public colleges declined for both African Americans and Hispanics after Prop 209, minority enrollees at public colleges were more likely to graduate after it was implemented [“Public 4-Year Colleges,” Table 4]. The ontime graduation rates of African Americans went up by 0.025 for a 23.1% increase after Prop 209 and by 0.034 in the 6-year graduation rate for a 9.3% increase.

https://3104012408994270008-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/estebanmaucejo/Prop_209_Paper_09-29-11_PA.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cpFW4iNYPs3dXNOSss41jZtqtybFU6QIP4ayCB01C6FsnBCoCbKAKHlBfOei29at5T0uCOn1cV7ZlBiBPJyx-OezlHYjhw-Rzt6uY1tf-Xv8wCdOp53XTtv1KJZ-WehwRLlXJsL8e4tU_8Z46z6kFjsqQv1XJThtGYDRi7cnvzre9M0RdE4tXJi-uTcuztqGdO_bHFX1koKG7dDCv__STWvqrPWPyUupW3v4UU8OnjwraOL4R4=&attredirects=0

 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,021
9
81
The biggest benefactor of the ban has been Asian Americans. Why should a rich African American get special treatment in addmissions over a poor Asian person. The idea that Asians don't experiene discrimination is wrong.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,021
9
81
I, and many of my family members are very thankful for prop 209, because without we might not have been able to go to the UC system.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Affirmative may be justified
Take from one give to another
The goal is to be unified
Take my hand be my brother
The payment silenced the masses
Sanctified by oppression
Unity took a backseat
Sliding further into regression

Society blind by color
Why hold down one to raise another
Discrimination now on both sides
Seeds of hate blossom further


- Creed, ONE
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,210
456
126
Ah, the excuses for inequality keep coming.

You didn't make a person handicapped so why the hell should YOU not get the closest parking spot instead of them?

You didn't oppress the people of Libya or Rwanda, bad leaders did, so why the hell should YOU lift one finger to prevent the slaughter of innocent people? Moral idiocy.

OUR SOCIETY caused discrimination that STILL HARMS PEOPLE AND DENIES THEM EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TODAY.

The 'color blind' society doesn't happen with the snap of someone's fingers. It actually takes more than than, but you are clueless.

Don't bother reading the following. It's an analogy. The post is over for you.

For others, the analogy:

Consider we just ended the law banning teaching blacks to read and write.

One leader notices what a huge disadvantage this puts blacks at and encourages a program targeting blacks to bring their literacy levels closer to whites.

Another leader wants the votes of the white people and tells them how they're getting screwed by that program.

'There are still white children who are illiterate - as long as there is one, there should be no preferential treatment based on race! Vote against blacks screwing whites!'

That's the same basic idea - one injustice can need a remedy that benefits the people harmed by the injustice.

Because of a long history of discrimination, generations of blacks were forced into low-paying work, are now hugely poorer as a group, were denied school, and much more.

This is merely a TEMPORARY measure to say 'they are hugely denied opportunity because of past wrong and this is to correct some of that harm'.

It's moving towards equality of opporunity - not going anywhere past the group who was harmed getting closer to equal opportunity, towards 'preferential treatment'.

In fact it's just obscene for the people who have advantages because of the discrimination today benefiting their families, to whine about the people who are harmed.

Do I need to post charts again with the results the inequality causes today?

No one is saying 'have affirmative action to the point of equal outcomes'. It's a much more limited program than that.

But the peopel who like the race-based advantages are going to keep the excuses coming demanding it be protected, hiding behind the lie it's 'the same as racism'.
And why should minority Asians (who also have been discriminated against) be thrown under the bus for the sake of affirmative action based on what whites did to blacks?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
344
126
And why should minority Asians (who also have been discriminated against) be thrown under the bus for the sake of affirmative action based on what whites did to blacks?
They're not 'thrown under the bus'. They're part of society, and society is taking some measures for people who have been wrongly harmed.

If Asians are discriminated against for generations and are harmed by those effects, then they deserve the same justice at some measures to help right that.

Same for whites. Let me know when thay happens.

Funny thing is, you don't see asians whining much about this. Then again, the asians don't have the cultural history of treating blacks as inferiors making them feel the same sort of resentment against helping blacks. That give you any clue about the racism under the surface?

Asians have their own racist history - Japanese treatment of Chinese is a particular sore spot and there are others.

There's a stereotype of the tension between the Korean corner store owner in black neighborhoods resentful of each other, but you don't see the same affirmative action ideology fury, just as in the civil rights movement you saw white fury at any equality for blacks by the white racists who were 'everyday people'.

I wanted to find pictures I've seen of white protest mobs that look like 1950's sitcom white families, except the housewives' faces are twisted into hateful yelling in mobs.

I didn't find those, but let's use this one to make a point. Look at the people. This is a May, 1963 photo of protesters sitting at a 'white' lunch counter. There is a Native American professor sitting next to the two black women. A white mob formed to protest them, and as the professor noted, he was covered in blood, saying "A huge mob gathered, with open police support while the three of us sat there for three hours. I was attacked with fists, brass knuckles and the broken portions of glass sugar containers, and was burned with cigarettes. I’m covered with blood and we were all covered by salt, sugar, mustard, and various other things."



Look at those people. Everday people - but filled with some fury.

That's racism. It's the same mentality that pervades the fury against affirmative action.

Can you relate to the whites in the photo? No? It's not really different, just 'different times' so the issue has shifted. Before this photo, lynchings were popular, same mentality.

You don't see Mexicans, Asians, etc. with this fury about 'black equality'.

Now, whites want to say 'they don't hate blacks, they are happy for them to do well. Why, our President is half-black.'

But that's not understanding the fury peculiar to American whites against blacks. Which helps explain why whites find excuses to oppose removing inequality.

When there was racism, southern whites often really thought they were 'doing blacks a favor', 'caring for them'. Not as surprising as it might sound, since the north wasn't some pro-equal rights culture - they hated blacks, wanting them to be 'second class', just opposing slavery, generally, making it more of a north-south issue than white-black to many whites, perhaps.

The excuses kept coming - for 60 years, the issue of equality was dealth with by 'separate but equal', which wan't equal. And on and on to today, with affirmative action being attacked with fury as 'reverse racism', demanding that blacks not get equal opportunity by cynically misusing the arguments against racism.

Do whites really want blacks to do equally well? I have to say they'd usually say yes but not necessarily accurately.

Funny enough, an organization that seems to have racism beat better than maybe any other seems like the military, where between the disproportionate number of blacks and the nature of the service, 'they all bleed green' or whatever, the camaraderie forced on people, that they seem to not have 'race issue' much at all. But society does not require any of those things of people - and whites still just make excuses to be ignorant about the issues of race and what will help right wrongs.

So where's the line? I posted previously - but there are legitimate arguments against 'reparations' as 'going too far', history has a lot of injustice.

Do we give Mexico back their land, to we give Native Americans back their land, etc.?
Do Mexican hispanics give Mexico back to the natives from before Spain invaded?

Times and history go on with people conquering, and there's a point where it makes no sense to change wrongs, where that would cause worse new wrongs.

Just being 'the descendants of people who were wronged' doesn't entitle people to any compensation for those wrongs.

But there's enough of a direct cause from past policy to blacks today that the goal of 'equality of opportunity to overcome past discrimination' is sometimes justified IMO.

Save234
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
344
126
  • Communists: Equal Outcome
  • Americans: Equal Opportunity
The contrast is plain as day, and what this subject is all about.

The two ideologies cannot be reconciled under the same policy. It is not American to take from someone based on the color of their skin, nor to forcibly provide an equal outcome. That sort of government regulation is foreign to a free nation where everyone is to be treated equal.

When the people vote to uphold the American ideal of equal opportunity the elite ruling class descends upon them in protest. Using courts and elected officials to overrule the will of the people. To force equal outcomes.

One more reason to disavow a government that has Leftists in it. Oh don't feel special, we're doing everything we can to make sure you feel the same way about us. It's a battle to the end.
No, you're just making a straw man.

Left: Equal opportunity - for example, public education with assistance for the poor

Moderates: Equality that's phony, paper equality where there's huge inequality, but on paper everyone is treated equally

Right: Passionately for unjustified advantage for whites, making excuses to protect it while making dishonest arguments how they're the disadvantages ones and for 'equality'
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
344
126
California's University systems have gone to shit since Reagan did this, not only that but student loans are the biggest debt Californians have dragging them down. But yeah, of course this contradicts your magical hand fundamentalist free market fairy tale -so just divert. Par for the course for you silly idealists.
'Free public education' was a liberal dream, and we largely had it, and it's one of the best things for our society - and it wore down.

Reagan presided over the 50th and last state to get rid of it, both a condemnation of him but also a recognition 49 other states already didn't have it.
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
81
Again -- the 'helping hand of affirmative action' should be socioeconomic in nature, not racial.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
344
126
Again -- the 'helping hand of affirmative action' should be socioeconomic in nature, not racial.
It can be for every group disadvantaged now by historic discrimination that is statistically lacking equality of opportunity. So all the white slaves in US history's families are eligible.

Actually, similar principles and models have been used to identify discrimination against women with good effect.

The Wal-Mart class action lawsuit had done this - the Supreme Court just said the women are not similar enough in their situation for a class action.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,445
0
0
Again -- the 'helping hand of affirmative action' should be socioeconomic in nature, not racial.
He's a racist, there's nothing anyone can do or say that will change his mind. He was probably just raised that way.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
76,577
9,703
126
no surprise. liberals don't want you to judge them on the failure of their results. They want to be judged on their utopian folly.
While I agree with your statement in general I dont know if theres enough evidence to say thats the case here.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,277
0
0
No, you're just making a straw man.

Left: Equal opportunity - for example, public education with assistance for the poor

Moderates: Equality that's phony, paper equality where there's huge inequality, but on paper everyone is treated equally

Right: Passionately for unjustified advantage for whites, making excuses to protect it while making dishonest arguments how they're the disadvantages ones and for 'equality'
You're a joke, not much more you can say. An abject failure of a joke.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
5
81
Look at those people. Everday people - but filled with some fury.

That's racism. It's the same mentality that pervades the fury against affirmative action.
I don't know why I bother to respond to this trash, but you're so full of shit that it's flowing out of your ears. You're comparing segregationists to people who believe that college admissions should be *gasp* race-neutral, as if the two things had anything in common.

One thing that I find tremendously satisfying is that as I stated earlier affirmative action always loses at the ballot box, even in liberal states, when voters get a chance to oppose it.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,021
9
81
They're not 'thrown under the bus'. They're part of society, and society is taking some measures for people who have been wrongly harmed.

If Asians are discriminated against for generations and are harmed by those effects, then they deserve the same justice at some measures to help right that.

Same for whites. Let me know when thay happens.

Funny thing is, you don't see asians whining much about this. Then again, the asians don't have the cultural history of treating blacks as inferiors making them feel the same sort of resentment against helping blacks. That give you any clue about the racism under the surface?

Asians have their own racist history - Japanese treatment of Chinese is a particular sore spot and there are others.

There's a stereotype of the tension between the Korean corner store owner in black neighborhoods resentful of each other, but you don't see the same affirmative action ideology fury, just as in the civil rights movement you saw white fury at any equality for blacks by the white racists who were 'everyday people'.

I wanted to find pictures I've seen of white protest mobs that look like 1950's sitcom white families, except the housewives' faces are twisted into hateful yelling in mobs.

I didn't find those, but let's use this one to make a point. Look at the people. This is a May, 1963 photo of protesters sitting at a 'white' lunch counter. There is a Native American professor sitting next to the two black women. A white mob formed to protest them, and as the professor noted, he was covered in blood, saying "A huge mob gathered, with open police support while the three of us sat there for three hours. I was attacked with fists, brass knuckles and the broken portions of glass sugar containers, and was burned with cigarettes. I’m covered with blood and we were all covered by salt, sugar, mustard, and various other things."



Look at those people. Everday people - but filled with some fury.

That's racism. It's the same mentality that pervades the fury against affirmative action.

Can you relate to the whites in the photo? No? It's not really different, just 'different times' so the issue has shifted. Before this photo, lynchings were popular, same mentality.

You don't see Mexicans, Asians, etc. with this fury about 'black equality'.

Now, whites want to say 'they don't hate blacks, they are happy for them to do well. Why, our President is half-black.'

But that's not understanding the fury peculiar to American whites against blacks. Which helps explain why whites find excuses to oppose removing inequality.

When there was racism, southern whites often really thought they were 'doing blacks a favor', 'caring for them'. Not as surprising as it might sound, since the north wasn't some pro-equal rights culture - they hated blacks, wanting them to be 'second class', just opposing slavery, generally, making it more of a north-south issue than white-black to many whites, perhaps.

The excuses kept coming - for 60 years, the issue of equality was dealth with by 'separate but equal', which wan't equal. And on and on to today, with affirmative action being attacked with fury as 'reverse racism', demanding that blacks not get equal opportunity by cynically misusing the arguments against racism.

Do whites really want blacks to do equally well? I have to say they'd usually say yes but not necessarily accurately.

Funny enough, an organization that seems to have racism beat better than maybe any other seems like the military, where between the disproportionate number of blacks and the nature of the service, 'they all bleed green' or whatever, the camaraderie forced on people, that they seem to not have 'race issue' much at all. But society does not require any of those things of people - and whites still just make excuses to be ignorant about the issues of race and what will help right wrongs.

So where's the line? I posted previously - but there are legitimate arguments against 'reparations' as 'going too far', history has a lot of injustice.

Do we give Mexico back their land, to we give Native Americans back their land, etc.?
Do Mexican hispanics give Mexico back to the natives from before Spain invaded?

Times and history go on with people conquering, and there's a point where it makes no sense to change wrongs, where that would cause worse new wrongs.

Just being 'the descendants of people who were wronged' doesn't entitle people to any compensation for those wrongs.

But there's enough of a direct cause from past policy to blacks today that the goal of 'equality of opportunity to overcome past discrimination' is sometimes justified IMO.

Save234
Asians have faced just as much racism and discrimination as Mexicans, and Mexicans are given preferential treatment, but Asians are given negative treatment under affirmative action.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Giving people specific advantages based on the color of their skin alone is an example of equality?

The POOR are the ones who need help, not those of a specific skin color. Of course, this will predominantly be minority groups, but thta is fine, since poor is not a skin color.
 

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