Some easy questions for Linux guys.

[lbhskier37]

Ok, I have some questions which should show my extreme lack of linux knowledge. I have redhat 9.0, and to get the Nvidia graphics drivers to install, I need to have xserver closed. How do I close xserver? I do the Ctrl Alt Backspace thing, but it only stays closed for like a second, then pops back up with the KDE login. Another question, is there anywhere that will tell me what packages I have installed? I am trying to get the nforce drivers installed, and I installed the prepackaged ones from nvidia, which arent doing the trick. I want to uninstall them, but when I do rpm -e "package name" it tells me that package isnt installed? So I go to reinstall the package, and it tells me that it is already installed, what gives here? I also tried to compile my own from the src.rpm files nvidia has, but it gives me some errors and wont package them. Well, I dont know about the last questions, but could someone please help me out with the first couple easy ones? Thanks.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

You are running kdm. /etc/rc.d/init.d/kdm stop, or killall kdm, or probably some special redhat way to do it.

rpm -qa, I think. (man rpm )

BTW, the rpm system blows. You can look forward to a lot more problems like the one you are describing. </zealot>

 

[Nothinman]

You are running kdm. /etc/rc.d/init.d/kdm stop, or killall kdm, or probably some special redhat way to do it.

Most distros run KDM, GDM, etc from init so the only way to really stop it is to switch runlevels.

BTW, the rpm system blows. You can look forward to a lot more problems like the one you are describing.

RPM is fine, it's almost the same thing as the dpkg system behind Debian. All you need to do is install a decent front-end for it like apt.

 

[lbhskier37]

Im really a newb here, so how do you switch run levels?

 

[cleverhandle]

Originally posted by: lbhskier37
Ok, I have some questions which should show my extreme lack of linux knowledge. I have redhat 9.0, and to get the Nvidia graphics drivers to install, I need to have xserver closed. How do I close xserver? I do the Ctrl Alt Backspace thing, but it only stays closed for like a second, then pops back up with the KDE login.

You could do a killall gdm-binary, but the nice way to handle this is to switch runlevels, as Nothinman suggested - do telinit 3 as root.

Another question, is there anywhere that will tell me what packages I have installed? I am trying to get the nforce drivers installed, and I installed the prepackaged ones from nvidia, which arent doing the trick. I want to uninstall them, but when I do rpm -e "package name" it tells me that package isnt installed? So I go to reinstall the package, and it tells me that it is already installed, what gives here?

I'd guess there's some version info tacked on the end of the package name because the package is tied to the kernel version - something like "nvidia-driver-4315-2.4.18". Like BBWF said, rpm -qa will produce a package list - pipe that through grep to find a specific package, i.e. rpm -qa | grep nvidia. FWIW, this issue is no different on Debian - when you deal with kernel packages, the names get messy. If you want more info after you've got the right name, do rpm -qi packagename.

I also tried to compile my own from the src.rpm files nvidia has, but it gives me some errors and wont package them.

There are many reasons this could happen - lacking configured kernel source or lacking development tools are simple ones, different directory structures and module tools would be more inconvenient. Have you tried the nvidia auto-installer for their newest drivers? While I haven't personally used them on RH9, I'd be very surprised if they didn't work.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
RPM is fine, it's almost the same thing as the dpkg system behind Debian. All you need to do is install a decent front-end for it like apt.

You need to install a decent frontend like apt, then you need to hunt down repositories for all the rpm's you want, and even then, it still wimps out on complex dependancy problems or important packages. RPM is half-ass, If you're going to use a packaging system, either wrap the whole OS in it (and do it well) (like debian), or clearly seperate it from the base system (BSD's). Redhat is just a festering stew of in-between-ness and half-ass-ness on this issue in my experience.

 

[lbhskier37]

so if rpms arent too good, what do you guys suggest for installing drivers for redhat? Some of this stuff is going over my head, but I am catching on i think

 

[cleverhandle]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
You need to install a decent frontend like apt...

True. I will agree that RH has never really provided a good front-end for RPM's. The old GnoRPM (6-7.x I think?) had potential, but they went and replaced it with the god-awful config-packages tool we've got now. This is all the more shameful because one of the design principles of RPM was the whole UNIX modularity thing - RPM was designed to install software packages, not locate them, not ask the user for guidance, not provide a friendly interface to the system's state. Somebody (other than Jeff Johnson, who single-handedly deals with almost all RPM issues) should have spent some serious resources putting together a system as extensible and powerful as Debian's apt.

then you need to hunt down repositories for all the rpm's you want...

Which is unlike Debian or BSD how exactly? True, Debian has a (much) larger package base, but there are still policy decisions that you have to work around, like mplayer dependencies for example. And while RH's package pool is smaller, you do get newer software. I like GNOME 2 - it's a PITA that Debian Testing still doesn't have it a year after it's release. And don't say that adding unofficial apt sources or pinning in Debian works around this, because that brings up the same dependency issues that people gripe about for RPM. Besides which, if you take a day to learn the tricks, you can write a typical spec in 30 minutes. From what I can tell with Debian, this is not the case.

and even then, it still wimps out on complex dependancy problems or important packages. RPM is half-ass, If you're going to use a packaging system, either wrap the whole OS in it (and do it well) (like debian), or clearly seperate it from the base system (BSD's). Redhat is just a festering stew of in-between-ness and half-ass-ness on this issue in my experience.

Examples? It sounds like your beef is with RPM's "all-or-nothing" approach. By design, RPM does not interact with the user or perform complex queries based on current package state. It doesn't provide 3 levels of "recommended-ness" like debs. But a lot of people don't want that - they want to run a command/front-end and have the package installed. If you don't like that, that's cool (I'm writing from a Debian box at the moment myself) - but don't bash a tool because you disagree with its design principles. Just use something else.

lbhskier37: On RedHat, RPM is what you've got. If you couldn't tell from the above, I don't think it's that bad at all. Perhaps there's another distro that would suit you better - I don't know. But until you figure out how to solve your problems in RH, or at least understand why they're unsolvable, you won't be qualified to judge one distro as a better choice than the others. Furious distro swapping in the hopes of some magic setup is a pretty good sign of someone who will never enjoy Linux. Until you understand what's in front of you, you won't understand what you need.

 

[lbhskier37]

Well I was hoping I was just an idiot and was missing something obvious, but thats ok. I guess I will keep plugging away at this. I am at work now so I havent had a chance to get back and try to get rid of that package, but thats for all your help so far.

 

[Nothinman]

You could do a killall gdm-binary, but the nice way to handle this is to switch runlevels, as Nothinman suggested - do telinit 3 as root.

That won't work, init will just restart it unless you switch runlevels.

True, Debian has a (much) larger package base, but there are still policy decisions that you have to work around, like mplayer dependencies for example.

mplayer is not being in is stupid, they do the same thing as xine and xine is in. Hopefully it'll get resolved eventually without xine being unpackaged =) But even so I only have 2 extra entries, one for mplayer and one for the blackdown jre.

I like GNOME 2 - it's a PITA that Debian Testing still doesn't have it a year after it's release.

I've been using GTK2 apps for quite a while, what is missing? I havn't used a complete desktop thing in some time so I guess parts could be missing and I wouldn't know.

so if rpms arent too good, what do you guys suggest for installing drivers for redhat?

Read their install docs and use the .sh file they provide, their docs are surprisingly good and should explain everything.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

then you need to hunt down repositories for all the rpm's you want...

Which is unlike Debian or BSD how exactly?

It's unlike it in the sense that on redhat I have to do it and on debian or BSD I don't.

True, Debian has a (much) larger package base, but there are still policy decisions that you have to work around, like mplayer dependencies for example.

I can just toss one line in my sources.list and I'm good to go. I'm running XF86 4.3, mplayer, Firebird snapshots, etc. Dependancies have never been an issue for me.

And while RH's package pool is smaller, you do get newer software. I like GNOME 2 - it's a PITA that Debian Testing still doesn't have it a year after it's release.

The only software debian seems to have these problems with is kde and gnome, and frankly I can understand that, they are so huge it's absurd. I don't use either one so I guess I'm not all that sympathetic

And don't say that adding unofficial apt sources or pinning in Debian works around this, because that brings up the same dependency issues that people gripe about for RPM.

I just stick a few lines in sources.list, one line in apt.conf, and I'm good to go. I don't have any dependancy problems.

Besides which, if you take a day to learn the tricks, you can write a typical spec in 30 minutes. From what I can tell with Debian, this is not the case.

I'm pretty sure that both are easy once you learn them (I couldn't comprehend redhat's rpm docs when I tried, and I've never read through the dpkg docs, so I'm not speaking from experience here)

and even then, it still wimps out on complex dependancy problems or important packages. RPM is half-ass, If you're going to use a packaging system, either wrap the whole OS in it (and do it well) (like debian), or clearly seperate it from the base system (BSD's). Redhat is just a festering stew of in-between-ness and half-ass-ness on this issue in my experience.

Examples? It sounds like your beef is with RPM's "all-or-nothing" approach. By design, RPM does not interact with the user or perform complex queries based on current package state. It doesn't provide 3 levels of "recommended-ness" like debs. But a lot of people don't want that - they want to run a command/front-end and have the package installed. If you don't like that, that's cool (I'm writing from a Debian box at the moment myself) - but don't bash a tool because you disagree with its design principles. Just use something else.

My problem is not with the rpm tool itself (I just use apt), the rpm *system* still bugs the @1%& out of me, apt does a decent job at making *some* things easy to install.