[Solved] Upgrade from X4 955 - high end Z97 or entry-level X99?

[matricks]

Hi. I'm going to upgrade my current system, buying motherboard, CPU, RAM and PSU. Both 4790K and 5820K setups are within my budget, and I'm constantly going back and forth on which direction to go. So I'm hoping for some input.

Budget: 8500 NOK, and Komplett or Netonnet should give an overview of prices and availability.

Current system:
- Phenom II X4 955 (125W version)
- Gigabyte GA-MA785GT-UD3H
- 8 GB 1600 MHz CL9 RAM
- Radeon R7 260X
- Corsair HX620W
- Silverstone FT02-E case
- Phanteks PH-TC14PE CPU cooler (impulse purchase while it was 65% off, for this new build)
- Samsung 830 SSD

Usage and reusable parts: The 260X serves me just fine, my gaming is fairly light (Defiance, no amount of hardware will fix its problems, SC2, 5+ years old classics). I run two VMs for web and software development, one of them runs regular compile jobs that take roughly 2.5 hours on the 955. Note that this is purely for my enjoyment, no income is made on this system.

SATA-300 on the motherboard bottlenecks the SSD right now, so I think the 830 fits in a new build just fine. The HX620W could probably live on, but since it's past more than five years of daily use, running non-stop for weeks at a time, I'd rather have something new. I need to pass on some PSU along with the parts I replace, might as well be that one.

Brands: No particular loyalty. My Gigabyte motherboards have been reliable over ten years (my first one still works!), but all of their X99 boards have 10 Gb/s M.2 at best, so I don't see any interesting options there.

Thoughts: On one hand, I like to get the most value for my money. On the other hand, I've been told to treat myself, and I will. On the apparent third hand, I keep stuff for a while, as you can tell from my current specs. So I want quality parts, and the motherboard is primarily on my mind. My impression is that there are many different power phase designs, some much better than others. I don't get all the low level electronics stuff, I've just grasped that this is where the manufacturers cut corners and have it slip by in reviews. Correct me if you wish. I'm not planning to try LN2, but I'd like to try some overclocking and see what the TC14PE and my new CPU can do, so power delivery has some importance.

4790K has lower heat output and power usage, but also 4 cores compared to 5820Ks 6. I expect to keep this system for at least as long as my current one unless something dramatic happens (Athlon 64 or Core 2-ish significant), so to the extent future proofing is possible, the extra cores are tempting. I also like what people are doing with their X58 setups and second hand Xeons these days, sounds like a nice possibility far down the road.

Finally, a few wishes for my motherboard. An M.2 slot with PCIe 3.0 x4 lanes and Intel LAN, and six SATA ports available internally (they can be shared with external SATA or SATA Express). Asus X99-A seems to cover it all, ASRock X99-WS has dual Intel LAN and I can benefit more from a Xeon in this one should the time come. Really nice of you to read all the way down here, by the way (you're almost done). If I skip M.2 entirely I could get GA-Z97-SOC, since it matches my orange cooler. Or any other high end Z97 board.

What would you buy right now (through Black Friday weekend), at roughly this budget? High end Z97, entry level X99, or 1.7 metric tons of bananas (they're on sale here this week)?

 

[mfenn]

Well if you want to buy an X99 just 'cause, then we can't stop you, but I don't see the point for your uses. The i7 4790K is fast for your general every day tasks that aren't perfectly parallelizable such as browsing, gaming, etc. due to its high clock speed (and even higher turbo clocks). About the only thing that you've described that will be faster on a 5820K is compiling, and there it is theoretically 25% faster assuming a build which is wide enough to fill 6 cores in all stages (probably not the case). Also, the 5820K would necessitate new RAM, whereas the 4790K could use your existing DDR3.

Same goes for the motherboard. You can buy a really expensive one because you want something shiny, but there's not a whole lot of practical purpose behind it. There's nothing that's more worthless than a stack of old high-end motherboards.

On a final note, I wouldn't worry too much about the M.2 form factor. It really is just a differently-shaped SATA port and/or PCIe slot. The real engineering purpose behind it is to standardize on a form factor that's good for devices with low z-height budgets (laptops), and it's not that useful on a desktop PC. It is however an effective way to move motherboards for the ASUS, Gigabyte, et. al marketing teams because it creates this idea in people's heads that they need a new port to keep up with the times. You'll always be able to use an adapter board if a killer M.2 SSD comes out that is not also available as a PCIe card.

Can you give some background on why you prefer an Intel NIC? Do you need a certain driver feature or OS compatibility?

So with all that in mind, here's what I would recommend:

i7 4790K 2800 kr.
GA-Z97X-UD3H-BK 1500 kr.

Use the rest of the budget on more RAM for your VMs, a GPU upgrade, or 850kg of nanners.

 

[escrow4]

Asrock X99 Extreme 4 (I have one) and 5820K. That will last as a 5yr build and the CPU is suitable for everything from encoding to gaming. That said the 4970K would work well, but if you have the cash X99.

 

[matricks]

The i7 4790K is fast for your general every day tasks that aren't perfectly parallelizable such as browsing, gaming, etc. due to its high clock speed (and even higher turbo clocks).

Thanks. You're right, the compilation isn't going to utilize 6 cores fully. I appreciate the thorough M.2 explanation, it sounds reasonable, and I'll take a better look at the boards I initially excluded in my own search.

Intel NIC for OS compatibility, although it seems Realtek drivers in Linux are good enough these days. I'm on Windows 8.1 for now, but a Linux desktop is very likely within the lifespan of this system. If I'm going to use a Killer NIC in Windows it will be with the regular Atheros driver, so it'll be a little extra driver hassle for no benefit.

Asrock X99 Extreme 4 (I have one) and 5820K. That will last as a 5yr build and the CPU is suitable for everything from encoding to gaming. That said the 4970K would work well, but if you have the cash X99.

I'll keep it in mind, X99 is very nice and shiny.

I'll look some more, and reconsider my MB wishes. Aside from SATA ports they weren't strict requirements, but I wasn't clear on that. There is however one strict requirement I forgot, optical S/PDIF out for my DAC+amp, but that seems covered on everything these days.

 

[Cerb]

Realtek support is pretty good. It's mainly brand new chips that have issues, on distros that don't update the kernel often. The best thing you can do is use distros that update fairly often, and especially that aren't draconian about firmware licensing (but, that's usually more of a Wifi NIC problem than an Ethernet NIC problem).

Atheros, however, still has issues with sleep/wake, and silently dropping connections after long uptimes, even years after driver family rewrites, and with many new chips. Them, I do try to steer clear of.

 

[soccerballtux]

overclocking to 3.8Ghz might help you delay the inevitable.

the RAM might be a main limitation too, I'm more or less happy with my CPU performance I just need more RAM so am contemplating the cheapest upgrade which is an AM3+ board, keeping my CPU, and getting more RAM

but Intel is good if you want upgrade

 

[biostud]

Since you have the money I would go for 5820K, because you will not be thinking: "Maybe I should have bought z97 instead....". On the other hand if you buy the z97 you will be thinking "Should I have bought the X99 instead...."

You could consider the Asrock X99 Killer or ASrock X99 Extreme6 board. Both with dual Gbit, one intel and one Qualcomm.

 

[matricks]

Since you have the money I would go for 5820K, because you will not be thinking: "Maybe I should have bought z97 instead....". On the other hand if you buy the z97 you will be thinking "Should I have bought the X99 instead...."

Well, both Z97 and X99 (or rather 4790K and 5820K) have advantages. More cache and more slightly slower cores vs. fewer faster cores. I'm not so sure reaching 4790Ks 4.0-4.4 GHz stock clock with the 5820K is trivial on air.

overclocking to 3.8Ghz might help you delay the inevitable.

The itch to upgrade is too strong, and the budget is partly a gift specifically for an upgrade. The CPU doesn't feel all that slow really, it's the motherboard I feel is holding me back. Only SATA-300, super slow POST, I'm just done with it. It has lasted a good while longer than I expected it to though, being a midrange board. Better boards have died for no apparent reason.

I've made a plan now, I'll make a list of all the motherboards I like, both Z97 and X99, and then see what deals pop up on Friday. Neither platform is a bad option.

 

[Yuriman]

Given what you've said, my vote goes to Z97.

 

[biostud]

4.2ghz on 5820k is a 99% given.

 

[mfenn]

Realtek support is pretty good. It's mainly brand new chips that have issues, on distros that don't update the kernel often. The best thing you can do is use distros that update fairly often, and especially that aren't draconian about firmware licensing (but, that's usually more of a Wifi NIC problem than an Ethernet NIC problem).

Atheros, however, still has issues with sleep/wake, and silently dropping connections after long uptimes, even years after driver family rewrites, and with many new chips. Them, I do try to steer clear of.

Agree on this part. The r8169 driver is extremely solid simply by virtue of the chip being extremely common. There's nothing wrong with an Intel NIC of course, but for your typical home gigabit network, there is no discernible difference between a Realtek and an Intel. Atheros NICs do tend to have issues in older kernels, largely because the vendor mucks around with the driver in a bad way rather that being competent (Intel) or leaving the open source community to develop quality code (Realtek).

 

[matricks]

All right, thanks for the input guys! You helped me rethink my requirements for my motherboard, and I'm now ready to shop (but waiting until Friday). That was necessary, because the product finder site I used was flawed, and some boards were left out in my first searches. For those curious, it'll be one of these (in no particular order, and with the slightly too expensive boards included in case of a great deal):

Updated list: #14

I decided I wanted 8 SATA ports (knowing on Z97 some of them will be on a separate controller), so I wouldn't have to play musical chairs with them. 5 HDD bays, 1 SSD and one DVD drive. No, I haven't decided, because I really like the Z97-SOC too! I do need to handle CDs from time to time, unfortunately. When sorting through mine and others old hard drives having the bays available is useful too.

I also discovered a cashback/rebate that for once applies in Norway, which is really exciting because that never happens. Up to 680 NOK (100 USD) on a 5820K setup or 530 NOK (77 USD) on a 4790K setup makes the shiniest things all the more tempting (which means I fell for the marketing, you got me). If the new stuff rush doesn't settle I might end up with a GTX 970 too!

I'll make sure to let you know what I end up with.

 

[mfenn]

Any reason you've disqualified the less expensive boards like the GA-Z97X-UD3H-BK?

 

[matricks]

Probably because of 6 SATA ports. I first looked at boards with 8+ SATA ports, then I just felt that I had to have the Z97X-SOC on my list, purely because of the color scheme that fits with my cooler. I didn't mean to get this case with a window, but I did on accident anyway, got to make the most of it. I think I can do with 4 HDD bays, so I'll probably need to go through the 6-port Z97s again.

I'll sleep on it, and update the list. I know someone who will have a great laugh if I attribute looks to any electronics purchase...

Not that the black boards don't go with the orange cooler, it just feels like black/orange goes even better. It's completely irrational, I know, it just... I guess I'm in love or something.

Update: I had another go at it and ended up with these options feature-wise:

ASRock Fatal1ty X99X Killer
ASRock X99 WS
ASRock X99 Extreme6
Asus X99-A
Asus X99-S
Asus X99-Pro
Gigabyte GA-X99-Gaming G1 WIFI
Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4
Gigabyte GA-X99-UD5 WIFI
Gigabyte GA-X99-UD7 WIFI
Gigabyte GA-X99-SOC Force
MSI X99S SLI Plus
MSI X99S MPower

ASRock Z97 Extreme4
ASRock Z97 Extreme6
Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD3H
Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD3H-BK
Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD5H-BK
Gigabyte GA-Z97X-UD7 TH
Gigabyte GA-Z97X-Gaming G1
Asus Gryphon Z97 Armor Edition
Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark 1
Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2
Asus Z97-Deluxe
Asus Z97-Pro
Asus Maximus VII Ranger
Asus Maximus VII Gene
Asus Maximus VII Hero

The ones left out now are because of poor availability, only Killer LAN on board, less than 6 SATA ports or lack of S/PDIF. Some top class Z97 are left out, since I'd rather spend that kind of money on X99 instead, and Black Friday deals probably won't knock them down enough. A couple in the X99 list are also too expensive, I just haven't decided where to draw the line, so they'll stay for now. GA-Z97X-SOC went out after all because of availability, so I can make a somewhat more reasonable decision. Probably won't buy the X99-SOC Force either, it ended up on the list through a very good price at a vendor I'd rather not deal with.

Comparing packages in all, with CPU+MB+RAM (16 GB), cheapest 4790K is 4847 NOK (UD3H), and 5820K at 5887 NOK (SLI Plus), both after rebate. That's over 1000 NOK off compared to my initial 5820K shopping list, so that's great. Right now I'm leaning towards the 4790K, and I'm liking the Gigabyte BK boards, but things can change.

Again, I appreciate the input you've all provided. Now I'm just waiting for Friday...

 

[matricks]

So, a delayed update for anyone who might wonder. I ended up with 4790K, Z97-A, 16 GB RAM and Supernova G2 750W. At first the upgrade felt underwhelming, no desktop activities felt much different at all. Then I ran a full build across all 8 threads, which completed in 1/4 of the time the 955 took, and at the same time browsing went just fine (lots of stuttering on the 955 with all cores in action). Totally worth it! :biggrin:

 

[mfenn]

So, a delayed update for anyone who might wonder. I ended up with 4790K, Z97-A, 16 GB RAM and Supernova G2 750W. At first the upgrade felt underwhelming, no desktop activities felt much different at all. Then I ran a full build across all 8 threads, which completed in 1/4 of the time the 955 took, and at the same time browsing went just fine (lots of stuttering on the 955 with all cores in action). Totally worth it! :biggrin:

:thumbsup::thumbsup: Glad it went well (and you saw reason on the mobo )!