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Soldiers Speak Out About War Atrocities

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Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
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Originally posted by: datalink7
I will check out that link tommorow (just got off mission at 0330 and I'm tired :p). However, considering I have the same indirect access to information that everyone else has, but in addition have easy direct access to a Brigade (~4500 soldiers) I would say my sample size is much larger than most. I will check out that link tommorow though and get back to you with what I think.
Thanks. I appreciate it. :)
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: LumbergTech
I think its pretty idiotic to pretend that these type of things don't occur.
These stories may be false, and if they are, hopefully the people who told them will pay in one way or another. Lets not forget history though. Nasty , nasty things are common in war. Every single other war before this has had its share of atrocities.
Agreed (although my quick look through the topic didn't show me anyone saying contrary). Nasty things can occur. But let's not insinuate that it's well organized, widespread, and use these stories to portray a reckless, hateful picture to serve your own psychological hangups.

The type of posters who come in here and outright reject stories because they don't like the tone (usually deflecting the stories with pseudo patriotic remarks) are just as bad as the people who tell fake stories.
I'm all for their stories. Let's get the people they refer to in the stories, let's contact the people who were in their squads, platoons, and companies, and lets see what they have to say. Let's investigate the claims.

What I'm not for is another jpeyton anti-military hate thread based on weak anecdotal evidence and his continued mindless attempts to paint with a broad brush. Keeping his outrageous posting history and constant attacks on the military as a whole in mind, this topic seems like just another ignorant attempt to spread disinformation and slander people and an organization for political (and personal) purposes. He's disgusting... waste of skin and oxygen thief are terms that come to mind.

Also, those who say ..so and so didn't have stories like that. Of course most people won't tell stories like that. Either they didn't have that experience or they are too afraid or in denial and won't admit it to the people around them for fear of being judged or for fear of invalidating the "mission" they were given. Unless you have some evidence or have personally witnessed these things, you simply don't know.
Not sure what your point is here. Sounds to me like you're saying we can't trust the people who were there because they might not tell the truth. um.... :confused:

Logic tells me that war brings out the worst in people. It doesn't mean that that is how most of the people conduct themselves, however, it only takes a small percentage to create quite heinous results.
Exactly. A small number of individuals, isolated instances, failures, and the crap situations of war. Problem is, that's not what the OP or this topic is about. The OP and people like him take a perverse glee in trotting out these small number of individuals, isolated instances, failures, and the crap situations to round them up and exploit it to deceive people, to make unfounded and hateful conclusions, and serve their own twisted agendas.

The worst part is people like jpeyton, with their outlandish and misleading irresponsibility, actually make is more difficult to deal with problems and situations that are REAL.
 
Jun 27, 2005
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Sounds like another John Kerry in the making... Let's see how long before he runs for office.

Seriously, every time one of these guys pops up they get slammed down harder than a white guy at the Apollo. The facts just don't support their cause. I tend to agree with palehorse74 and Blackangst1. I just don't see this as a 'normal' or 'accepted' thing over there.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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Originally posted by: bbdub333
Yep, this is proof alright. Just like the last 8 stories about people either lying about their service, or their actions, or what they witnessed, just to make political points.
Uhh... after Abu Graib, why is any of this so unbelievable to you?
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I have served downrange, in both major theaters, alongside men and women from every service or agency; and I have NEVER seen any unit operate in a manner these supposed Marines described in the OP -- NEVER -- so Jpeyton, your passing it off as the gospel truth, or the norm, is utterly despicable.

Then again, with you, I'm not surprised.
Same goes for my wife's best friend's two kids. Theyre on their 3rd tour and have stories NOTHING like this.
Most likely your wife's friend's kids are what most soldiers are like.

I wouldn't be completely unsurprised to find out there's some truth to this guys stories though, but it's certainly not anything our military is ordering people to do. Individual actions, with at most some commanders trying to meet quotas or protect their soldiers' lives giving them more leeway than they should.

There's also nothing to say these people shot weren't insurgents. Maybe this soldier was told "these people are insurgents, and we're to take them out," and the rest of the soldiers had no problem with this, and this one said "are you sure they're the same people?" Doesn't mean he's right, but I'd imagine most soldiers don't think about who they're killing. In many situations, Iraqis probably feel threatened by the soldiers, and vice versa, and a fire fight just starts without real guilt on either side.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: bbdub333
Yep, this is proof alright. Just like the last 8 stories about people either lying about their service, or their actions, or what they witnessed, just to make political points.
Uhh... after Abu Graib, why is any of this so unbelievable to you?
After Jessie Macbeth (IVAW), Jimmy Massey (IVAW), Scott Beauchamp (TNR diarist) and many others who have made similar claims but been shown to be frauds....why should we unquestionably believe it?

Let's not forget that the original Winter Soldier event was fraudulent as well as even the leader of that event (Al Hubbard) had never been to Vietnam much less been a soldier.

It goes both ways. If they have proof to back up their claims, show it and let the military justice system work.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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I have no doubt that things like this go on. They do in every war. God knows Vietnam had more than its share...
(I haven't seen any pics of Marines wearing necklaces of ears yet...pretty common during the Vietnam War)


HOWEVER, I believe that this kind of thing is very much the exception rather than S.O.P....

My son did 2 tours in Iraq with his helicopter squadron. He said there's some pretty heinous stuff going on, but it's not widespread.

 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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I think if a lot of soldiers were acting like that in Iraq that it would be impossible for anyone to trust American Solders or Marines. I think in any large group or in isolated areas that there may be some bad things going on. But there is no way Iraqi people would trust us at all if all soldiers in Iraq were acting like this.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: piasabird
I think if a lot of soldiers were acting like that in Iraq that it would be impossible for anyone to trust American Solders or Marines. I think in any large group or in isolated areas that there may be some bad things going on. But there is no way Iraqi people would trust us at all if all soldiers in Iraq were acting like this.
Agreed.

I think the truth lies in the middle. Almost every serviceman (or woman) I've ever met has been a class act. That said, I think that incidents that basically amount to 'conduct unbecoming' happen a lot more frequently than are reported, for obvious reasons. And that's fine. I also think that these things happen far LESS than a certain segment would have us believe.

I also think that the Iraqi's have little trust for us, after all it's been ~5 years, and the progress just isn't there. A friend who has left for his 3rd tour says that the Iraqi's can be pretty inscrutable. He remembers vividly seeing a group of Iraqi civilians mildly smiling at the Americans as they passed, immediately before an IED flipped the 2nd-to-point vehicle. He got out of his transport, and walking by the civilians, they had the same indifferent smiling faces. Said it was pretty eerie.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: datalink7
I will check out that link tommorow (just got off mission at 0330 and I'm tired :p). However, considering I have the same indirect access to information that everyone else has, but in addition have easy direct access to a Brigade (~4500 soldiers) I would say my sample size is much larger than most. I will check out that link tommorow though and get back to you with what I think.
Thanks. I appreciate it. :)
Unfortunately, I didn't realize it was a video trailer. I am on slow internet here (pretty much 56k) and can't download video's because it is slow, and then slows down everyone else (it's 5 computers sharing the line).

From what I read that looks like an investigation mostly into the prison system and focused in Afghanistan. Both areas are a little removed from me (I am in an Infantry Platoon that does patrols in Baghdad). I know that when we take detainees we hold them for a little while at our base and give them shelter, food, water and a place to sleep before tranfering them to a big base and the military police. From what I've seen the Military Police have huge oversight on all their operatings and do things strictly by the book. There is a massive amount of paperwork to go with each detainee. I have noticed no abuse from my end, but then again I only hand them off, do some paperwork, and leave. If you send me a PM around the end of April when I get back to the states I will watch it then and respond to the video.

But I would posit that Abu Gharib type incidents aren't as widespread as you might think.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
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Originally posted by: Nitemare
yeah and some cops are pure assholes as well, such is the nature of man
The problem is that we shouldn't allow said assholes into our military. We're giving pigs like that guns, training, and access to a war-zone... Then they get to come home......
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: Nitemare
yeah and some cops are pure assholes as well, such is the nature of man
The problem is that we shouldn't allow said assholes into our military. We're giving pigs like that guns, training, and access to a war-zone... Then they get to come home......
That sounds just peachy, but...

How do you propose we screen them moreso than we already have? Many of the the worst offenders have been completely law-abiding, sane, and reasonable people prior to their time in Iraq.

IOW, other than what we're already doing to weed them out as soon as humanly possible, what would you suggest we do to make their number even smaller?

Remember, these are but a handful of the hundreds of thousands of decent service-members -- they are the exceptions, and not the rule -- so how would you find them?
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,064
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Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: Nitemare
yeah and some cops are pure assholes as well, such is the nature of man
The problem is that we shouldn't allow said assholes into our military. We're giving pigs like that guns, training, and access to a war-zone... Then they get to come home......
That sounds just peachy, but...

How do you propose we screen them moreso than we already have? Many of the the worst offenders have been completely law-abiding, sane, and reasonable people prior to their time in Iraq.

IOW, other than what we're already doing to weed them out as soon as humanly possible, what would you suggest we do to make their number even smaller?

Remember, these are but a handful of the hundreds of thousands of decent service-members -- they are the exceptions, and not the rule -- so how would you find them?
I don't know, I'm no psychology professor, I won't pretend to know what to look for specifically. All I know is that there's a problem with the mental stability of some service-men/women, and an extended psych-screening for EVERY entrant of some kind would at least help, don't you think?
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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www.bing.com
I spent a whole tour in Falujah, one of the worst cities in Iraq. I was actually in the city, not in one of the surrounding villages. Stories like the one in the op are UNHEARD OF, even in the most violent parts of town.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,780
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www.bing.com
Originally posted by: manowar821
...
All I know is that there's a problem with the mental stability of some service-men/women,
Oh do you?
and an extended psych-screening for EVERY entrant of some kind would at least help, don't you think?
Maybe you missed the part where everyone already is screened? Not to mention months of basic, mos school, then several months more of training before going overseas? And troops get filtered out at every phase.

There have now been over 2 million tours through Iraq and Afghanistan. How many actual convictions of war crimes? A dozen? maybe twenty? Day care workers aren't that clean.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
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I just got back from Iraq.... never seen or heard anything like what some would lead you to believe is common.

I spent plenty of time working with the IP's the Judiciary and the Governor of Province. I would think that if there was even ONE incident like claimed, I would have heard about it, since one of my officers was the HR rep, and my specialty was legal transparency, Border Operations and IP liaison.

Not now or ever is what the idiot claiming to be a soldier even close to reality. While I never had an investigation focused on me after a firefight, I have seen the IP report suspected abuses by their own as well as ANY death directly caused by the CF to my office for further review.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
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Originally posted by: palehorse74
Nobody can deny that there may be scattered unlawful incidents throughout the war in Iraq; but it's jpeyton's passing it off as the norm, and his complete dismissal of any testimony contradicting his own low-grade sources, that makes everyone sick.

Exhibit A:
I guess that's hard to do with 135,000+ trained killers running around above the law.
I mean, wtf is that about!? Who the hell does this prick think he is!? I'm beginning to think that the armed services rejected him at some point... maybe due to a disability, or perhaps it was drug use... whatever the case, this person has a serious and unhealthy grudge against the US military.

bah...
Or maybe someone in the military called him a 'pussy' for not being in the military? Might turn a guy off military folk in general, you think?

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Nobody can deny that there may be scattered unlawful incidents throughout the war in Iraq; but it's jpeyton's passing it off as the norm, and his complete dismissal of any testimony contradicting his own low-grade sources, that makes everyone sick.

Exhibit A:
I guess that's hard to do with 135,000+ trained killers running around above the law.
I mean, wtf is that about!? Who the hell does this prick think he is!? I'm beginning to think that the armed services rejected him at some point... maybe due to a disability, or perhaps it was drug use... whatever the case, this person has a serious and unhealthy grudge against the US military.

bah...
Or maybe someone in the military called him a 'pussy' for not being in the military? Might turn a guy off military folk in general, you think?
Even if someone called him a name somewhere along the line, that doesnt make the things he's saying any less despicable. Nothing really excuses his outright hostility toward all things US military -- or the hurtful lies he tries to pass off as the common truth.

 

Skitzer

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2000
4,417
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: RichardE
Funny how when soliders refute this shit and say its bs that you refuse to believe it. Guess the only true information is the stuff that supports your worldy view?
I never said 100% of soldiers kill innocent Iraqis. I just think the problem is, as these soldiers said, a lot more widespread than simply a few bad apples.
No, but you did say this ...........
"I guess that's hard to do with 135,000+ trained killers running around above the law."
That statement just about covers every soldier in Iraq doesn't it?
You are implying that they all are ruthless murderers with no conscience right?
You are about as despicable as they come buddy.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,064
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Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: manowar821
...
All I know is that there's a problem with the mental stability of some service-men/women,
Oh do you?
and an extended psych-screening for EVERY entrant of some kind would at least help, don't you think?
Maybe you missed the part where everyone already is screened? Not to mention months of basic, mos school, then several months more of training before going overseas? And troops get filtered out at every phase.

There have now been over 2 million tours through Iraq and Afghanistan. How many actual convictions of war crimes? A dozen? maybe twenty? Day care workers aren't that clean.
Obviously they're not screened enough, because they are literally allowing white-supremacists with visible tattoos into the military, and have been for a few years now.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
10,913
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Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: manowar821
...
All I know is that there's a problem with the mental stability of some service-men/women,
Oh do you?
and an extended psych-screening for EVERY entrant of some kind would at least help, don't you think?
Maybe you missed the part where everyone already is screened? Not to mention months of basic, mos school, then several months more of training before going overseas? And troops get filtered out at every phase.

There have now been over 2 million tours through Iraq and Afghanistan. How many actual convictions of war crimes? A dozen? maybe twenty? Day care workers aren't that clean.
Just because there haven't been many convictions, doesn't mean that atrocities haven't occurred that should have been tried. Our military has a history of covering up unlawful acts unless they're forced to bring them into the open. I doubt I'm the only person that is aware of a event known as the My Lai Massacre.. The longest and ONLY sentence that came from the murder of over 300 people was 4½ months. I'm sure that there are many horrible acts that have occurred in Iraq that we have not heard about and that many in the chain of command are aware of and would rather cover up than give the military a black eye. I don't know how many, but I truly hope it's only a few incidents. I'd like to give not just our military, but American men and women in general the benefit of the doubt that the vast majority of service people in Iraq would not only never kill anyone who wasn't a combatant, but that they would also disobey a direct order that told them to do such if one was given.

Basically what I'm saying is that just because an incident wasn't heard about or there wasn't a conviction doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I'm sure that there are several atrocious acts we aren't aware of. I just hope that there aren't very many. With about 150,000 soldiers over there, if only 0.5% of them did something horrible, that still puts the number in the hundreds

Also should note that we know the government was aware of and investigated many incidents in Vietnam but did not release information on it and that of hundreds of proven cases of war crimes, that the longest sentence was 7 months. The more you know!
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
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thraashman,

It's easy to think, (if you're not in the military currently) that atrocities are easy to cover-up like in past wars.

It's just not the case. The military was unable to cover-up abuse at Abu-Ghraib. They couldn't even cover up kidnapped CF soldiers, or car wrecks caused by soldiers that resulted in civilian deaths. ALL FIREFIGHTS are required to be reported. failing to report a SIGACT can end your career. Failing to report HR violation will land you in the slammer AND end your career.

E-mails and digital cameras are EVERYWHERE. Many engagements are caught on LOCAL cameras and sent to CF Higher for review. Our own soldiers also document many of the engagements as proof of engagement and to cover them for accusations of wrongdoing, much like cops and the in-car camera. Cell phones are more common than in the U.S., and Iraqis LOVE to catch the CF with their pants down. They ALWAYS file claims for wrongfull death and gloat when the CF pays for lost property because the CF pays two or three times it's value.

Don't believe the hype..because it's far and away not close to the reality.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,297
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Just an FYI: Garett Reppenhagen is chairman of the board of directors of Iraq Veterans Against the War.

Maybe everything he says is the truth, or maybe he is just trying to score some points.
He's following in John Kerry's footsteps.
 

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