Socket A 3200+ vs Athlon64 3200+?

[Gstanfor]

I'd appreciate some advice and speed/performance comparisons regarding the above cpu's.

Some background first:

I currently have an Athlon XP2400+, running in an ASUS AN78X Deluxe Rev 2.0. There is 1 gig of PC2100 memory installed on the motherboard. (the memory and current cpu can go into an old MSI K7N420 Pro nforce1 board I have spare).

I am extremely happmy with the ASUS motherboard and I am currently leaning towards the Socket A XP3200+ becuase it means I only have to update CPU and memory. If I were to go Athlon64 I would require a new motherboard and a soundcard in addition to the CPU/memory.

The main reason for the upgrade is to unlock extra performance from my recently acquired GF6 6800 GT (I find the 2400+ is quite capable for general computing tasks). Overclocking is NOT an option, please don't factor it into your suggestions, thanks.

64 bit capability is not a big concern at the present moment. When I want a serious 64 bit based machine in about a years time I'm likely to go dual-core CPU, and it's way too early to be considering that. A64 single cpu has only just matured/stabilized enough for mainstream IMO.

On a slightly different note, I am quite suprised that there are no articles on the 'net that show the differences between the two (if any).

This is similar to the video card situation where current cards get compared to current cards and not older cards (such as GF4 4200) which people looking to upgrade likely already have and would be interested in knowing the performance increase they are likely to get.

Why do hardware reviewers on the 'net not include such results along with peer - to - peer results? It has always struck me as strange that they should be omitted.

 

[Dureth]

In terms of gaming performance there is a HUGE difference between an XP3200 and a A64 3200. Also you mention that you are interested in going dual core / 64 bit in a year or so's time. In my opinion the best way forward would be to get an A64 3000 (socket 939) and 1GB of budget DDR400 (2x512MB for dual channel) as well as an nForce 4 motherboard. This way when you do want to go to dual core all you need to replace is the CPU (motherboard will be dual core ready). This will give you a pretty huge boost in preformance (especially gaming when paired with that 6800 GT).

The extra cost of the motherboard is negated by the fact that your RAM and Motherboard will still be great for when you go dual core. Over time you are saving a heck of a lot of trouble and money by going straight to a socket 939 A64 platform now.

Don't worry that the A64 3000 has a lower rating than the XP3200, its a MUCH better performer. Apples and Oranges.

 

[Gstanfor]

Sounds like AMD's rating system has become worthless then, as I feared it eventually would over time.

I wonder if they have plans to change it or not.

So, what makes the difference? I've heard A64's cache has better bandwidth, is it SSE2 or a massively improved x87 unit?

 

[Dureth]

A64's have a more refined pipeline and a more efficient process of calculation. It's main performance boost comes from having the memory controller on-die rather than as a seperate chip on the motherboard. This reduces memory latency by extremely large amounts meaning that the CPU is very rarely starved of data.

 

[imported_fatal]

You can compare the different CPU's here http://216.92.52.205/index.html

I also recently upgraded to a 3000+ from a 1900+ & stuck with the XP's beacuse of the expense of new motherboard & memory. I am planing on a future upgrade to the 64's beacuse of the better performance, but for now my CPU runs quite well & can play games & do everything I need it to do.

 

[Gstanfor]

Yes, expense is a large factor for me as well at the moment.

1 gig PC3200 & an XP3200+ will cost me $346 Australian or thereabouts.

1 A64 3200+ is between $285 & $315 depending on dealer and I still have to purchase a m/b and the memory.

That's another reason why I'd currently rather upgrade the Socket A system one last time if the performance is reasonable.

What does a Sempron 3100+ A64 perform like? Does the onboard mem controller advantage mean it performs well too?

On the subject of processor ratings, the current system is very annoying from a consumer perspective.

I should be able to buy A P4, XP3200+ A643200+ (s939 or 754) and they should all perform roughly the same, the only difference being the platform they run on. Otherwise the rating means nothing.

 

[Insomniak]

I think the big problem is not the rating system - it is that the XP 3200+ was a BS rating. Its performance was basically no different from the 3000+ (except in limited circumstances). I think they should've refrained from launching it - but I understand that microcircuitry is a business, and they needed revenue.

 

[Gstanfor]

So, my best bet would be to just settle for 1gig PC3200 memory and a socket A XP3000+ for now?

Then save for dual-core A64 next year.

 

[imported_fatal]

There has always been a problem with the rating system if you try to compare different CPU's, Celeron-Pentium, Duron-XP, Sempron-64's

 

[Diasper]

I have an alternative for you. You're board is good and should be fine at overclocking - your cpu should even be ok to overclock. You should be perfectly able to get to 3000+ speeds with your current processor.

If you're interested in overclocking they're plenty of guides around but I wouldn't go above 1.75V especially if you're cooling isnt great - I've found for XP chips there's typically not much gain in mhz after 1.75V for a massive increase in heat.

Heck you might even be able to keep the RAM if you can find it can overclock to relatively decent levels - DDR2700 or 333mhz without too bad latencies. Ultimately you may want to get new RAM as you could carry it over to an A64 rig if you wanted later - although probably not dual core as they'll probably have started needing DDR2 for that.

I think really though you'd need an A64 rig to really power that 6800GT card as many games now are becoming rather CPU dependent eg Half Life 2 (some levels even on AMD64). That means ultimately you'll be looking to goto AMD64 and when you take costs into account, there's not much loss from going to it now then buying a few parts now and then buying later. I might suggest you overclock now and see where you can get to and perhaps buy some RAM and then reconsider an AMD64 purchase say in a month or two as you needs and finances allow. Sell you're current components if that allows you more money to reach it.

When you do go I'd recommend Socket 939 with a Venice AMD64 3200+ core which by all reports are amazing overclockers and could reach 2.7ghz on air (depending on good cooling and good mobo) - equating to roughly 4000+ performance. In XP performance numbers that'd probably be about AMD XP PR of 5000 or more. A rough guide. If you need a good case try Antec 3000B.


ps. dual core won't help for games for quite some time yet and will actually be slower than single processors. Add that to the fact they'll be more expensive for a long time.


Edit: Also whats your Power Supply Unit - even overclocking your current CPU or upgrading may mean needing a new PSU :/

 

[Gstanfor]

I wouldn't try to compare value cpu's to performance cpu's and I know feature support for things such as SIMD and cache size will vary across the different models, but the basic speed should be roughly the same.

Well, I checked and a XP3000+ is $20 cheaper than an XP3200+ - I'm not that hard up for cash.

I also checked out the comparison engine and I'm quite pleased with the performance gains I'm seeing. They won't bowl anyone over for sure, but they do help nicely.

For instance
XP3200+ XP3000+ XP2400+ Benchmark
137.2 126.7 93.2 Farcry
70.3 65.5 46.1 Doom3
3330 3234 2103 3D Mark05 CPU
properly formatted benchmarks

Other games I'm into at the moment but weren't represented include mafia, flatout, vampire bloodlines, MOHPA, Sim City 4 and lots more older ones.

You notice the lack of CPU power a lot in Mafia and Sim City 4 - those two load the cpu up a lot.

edit: no CODE tags on this forum :Q
edit2: fixed benchmark display

 

[Diasper]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

For instance

XP3200+  XP3000+  XP2400+  Benchmark
137.2    126.7    93.2     Farcry
70.3     65.5     46.1     Doom3
3330     3234     2103     3D Mark05 CPU

You could get close to that performance by overclocking IMO so you don't have to spend anything. I got my XP 2500 to just beyond XP 3200 speeds.

Unfortunately, AMD's XP PR rating was going to crap as it tried to compete with Intel such that a 3200XP more equated 3ghz or even 2.8ghz P4 in performance. That's more than turned around with the current A64 line up where a 3.8ghz P4 can find it difficult to compete with an AMD64 3200+ in games.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: Diasper
I have an alternative for you. You're board is good and should be fine at overclocking - your cpu should even be ok to overclock. You should be perfectly able to get to 3000+ speeds with your current processor.

If you're interested in overclocking they're plenty of guides around but I wouldn't go above 1.75V especially if you're cooling isnt great - I've found for XP chips there's typically not much gain in mhz after 1.75V for a massive increase in heat.

Heck you might even be able to keep the RAM if you can find it can overclock to relatively decent levels - DDR2700 or 333mhz without too bad latencies. Ultimately you may want to get new RAM as you could carry it over to an A64 rig if you wanted later - although probably not dual core as they'll probably have started needing DDR2 for that.

I think really though you'd need an A64 rig to really power that 6800GT card as many games now are becoming rather CPU dependent eg Half Life 2 (some levels even on AMD64). That means ultimately you'll be looking to goto AMD64 and when you take costs into account, there's not much loss from going to it now then buying a few parts now and then buying later. I might suggest you overclock now and see where you can get to and perhaps buy some RAM and then reconsider an AMD64 purchase say in a month or two as you needs and finances allow. Sell you're current components if that allows you more money to reach it.

When you do go I'd recommend Socket 939 with a Venice AMD64 3200+ core which by all reports are amazing overclockers and could reach 2.7ghz on air (depending on good cooling and good mobo) - equating to roughly 4000+ performance. In XP performance numbers that'd probably be about AMD XP PR of 5000 or more. A rough guide. If you need a good case try Antec 3000B.


ps. dual core won't help for games for quite some time yet and will actually be slower than single processors. Add that to the fact they'll be more expensive for a long time.


Edit: Also whats your Power Supply Unit - even overclocking your current CPU or upgrading may mean needing a new PSU :/

This XP2400+ is a very early model, originally bought to top out an MSI K7N420 Pro (nForce1). It's multiplier locked unlike later versions, can't even get it to do 2600+ reliably.

Also, this machine is on 24/7, except for when AV/security/windows update definitions force a reboot. Reliability is important to me as is quietness. It currently uses a Spire WhisperRock cooler with a low rpm fan. I don't want to have to deal with overclocking heat and the noise it brings.

 

[Diasper]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: Diasper
I have an alternative for you. You're board is good and should be fine at overclocking - your cpu should even be ok to overclock. You should be perfectly able to get to 3000+ speeds with your current processor.

If you're interested in overclocking they're plenty of guides around but I wouldn't go above 1.75V especially if you're cooling isnt great - I've found for XP chips there's typically not much gain in mhz after 1.75V for a massive increase in heat.

Heck you might even be able to keep the RAM if you can find it can overclock to relatively decent levels - DDR2700 or 333mhz without too bad latencies. Ultimately you may want to get new RAM as you could carry it over to an A64 rig if you wanted later - although probably not dual core as they'll probably have started needing DDR2 for that.

I think really though you'd need an A64 rig to really power that 6800GT card as many games now are becoming rather CPU dependent eg Half Life 2 (some levels even on AMD64). That means ultimately you'll be looking to goto AMD64 and when you take costs into account, there's not much loss from going to it now then buying a few parts now and then buying later. I might suggest you overclock now and see where you can get to and perhaps buy some RAM and then reconsider an AMD64 purchase say in a month or two as you needs and finances allow. Sell you're current components if that allows you more money to reach it.

When you do go I'd recommend Socket 939 with a Venice AMD64 3200+ core which by all reports are amazing overclockers and could reach 2.7ghz on air (depending on good cooling and good mobo) - equating to roughly 4000+ performance. In XP performance numbers that'd probably be about AMD XP PR of 5000 or more. A rough guide. If you need a good case try Antec 3000B.


ps. dual core won't help for games for quite some time yet and will actually be slower than single processors. Add that to the fact they'll be more expensive for a long time.


Edit: Also whats your Power Supply Unit - even overclocking your current CPU or upgrading may mean needing a new PSU :/

This XP2400+ is a very early model, originally bought to top out an MSI K7N420 Pro (nForce1). It's multiplier locked unlike later versions, can't even get it to do 2600+ reliably.

Also, this machine is on 24/7, except for when AV/security/windows update definitions force a reboot. Reliability is important to me as is quietness. It currently uses a Spire WhisperRock cooler with a low rpm fan. I don't want to have to deal with overclocking heat and the noise it brings.

I guess in that scenario choose whatever XP cpu fits your budget. That said about overclocking if you got a mobile XP chip, you'd no doubt be able to hit 3000 speeds with less voltage and less heat than the 3000/3200, while the chip would still be multiplier unlocked.

For the record my overclocked pc emits just a very low hush and runs a distributed computing task 24/7 (www.find-a-drug.org.uk) - its in the room I sleep in.




Edit: It's very likely to be your RAM holding you back. I'd get new RAM and then see how far your chip could go on sub 1.75V - say 1.7V if you want to be cautious about heat - Prime95 etc it to ensure stability. Of course, then the advantage is if it doesn't overclock sufficiently then nothing is stopping you grabbing another processor - the option would still be open to take the AMD64 route even.

 

[Gstanfor]

The mobile XP is something to consider I guess. The main issue si tracking one down this late in the game. None of my usual suppliers (I have quite a few) keep them anymore, and when they did they had quite a markup on them because of the overclockability.

 

[cbehnken]

Mobile chips are NOT unlocked anymore. They haven't been for over a year. Only way to overclock is by changing the FSB.

 

[Gstanfor]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Diasper]

Originally posted by: cbehnken
Mobile chips are NOT unlocked anymore. They haven't been for over a year. Only way to overclock is by changing the FSB.

I'm behind the game on that. Sorry for that one.

 

[chirodoc459]

I bought a XP 3200+ originally, then took it back after seeing a mobile XP 2500+ perform just as well. After building a 64 3000+ system for a friend I am now building myself a 64 system because I could see a large performance difference.

If your buying XP I would get the mobile 2500. They are still listed on newegg, and I am sure you can find a few on ebay cause that's where mine is headed. There is some nice value ram out there right now that you can get for around 100$ for a gig. It would probably help you out also.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-401&depa=1

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: chirodoc459
I bought a XP 3200+ originally, then took it back after seeing a mobile XP 2500+ perform just as well. After building a 64 3000+ system for a friend I am now building myself a 64 system because I could see a large performance difference.

If your buying XP I would get the mobile 2500. They are still listed on newegg, and I am sure you can find a few on ebay cause that's where mine is headed. There is some nice value ram out there right now that you can get for around 100$ for a gig. It would probably help you out also.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-401&depa=1

Thanks for your reply. If you look above, you'll see current 2500's are locked (if you can find them) and I'm in Australia - things are expensive enough without conversion to aremican dollars and international shipping!

 

[Diasper]

Just an idea, but I'm sure your board should be able to run your RAM asychronously, which means you can find out how far your current cpu should be able to overclock.

If you set the asychronisation where your RAM runs at as low a speed as possible and then up your fsb with moderate volatage increased when need you should be able to find what your current cpu can do. I reckon with a little voltage bump it should be able to hit 2ghz.

Then work out how much the X mhz difference will cost.

 

[Gstanfor]

I've tried that sort of thing before. I have decent quality PC2100 memory - it's kingston valuram.

Anyhow this cpu won't budge an inch. Could get it to boot @ 2600 with a high voltage but no stability. Overclocking is never guaranteed - some chips clock like mad others won't budge, mine is one that won't budge. It is a pretty early Thoroughbred A though.

 

[irwincur]

Get 1GB of PC3200 RAM, and a Socket A 2500+. Set the RAM to 200MHz and run the CPU at 2.2GHz. Cheap 3200+. Simple too, should not require any special cooling.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Get 1GB of PC3200 RAM, and a Socket A 2500+. Set the RAM to 200MHz and run the CPU at 2.2GHz. Cheap 3200+. Simple too, should not require any special cooling.

Athlon XP 2800+ Boxed Skt A 512k Barton 333FSB $ 149
Athlon XP 3000+ Boxed Skt A 512k Barton 333FSB $ 180
Athlon XP 3200+ Boxed Skt A 512k Barton 400FSB $ 220

These are my cpu choices (3000+ just got slightly cheaper). Only other socket A's are Semprons. Although I'm budget minded I can afford $220 and if those comparison charts have any accuracy there is some improvement over the 3000+ to be had. No risk of a stubborn chip either.

I'll be getting 1 gig PC3200 no matter what. This will carry forward even to a dual-core A64 eventually, so that doesn't trouble me (I bought my PC2100 when it was new tech and it cost me a large fortune - I've milked it for all its worth before replacing it).

 

[Sunbird]

Get a "AMD Sempron 2600+ 333FSB (1.833GHz) Socket A with 256K Exclusive L2 cache, 130 Nanometer Technology".

Then overclock that by putting it on a 400FSB, should give you a XP 3200, but with 256KB cache, which would make a difference, but not that much.

A socket A Sempron 2600+ would be under $100, right?