Socialized birth control

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Deeko
You still haven't answered the question. Why are you turning this into a "OMG I HATE FEDERAL INCOME TAX LOL!!111!!!! STOP STEALING MY MONEYZ!" thing, when the OP left it vague as to what level of government is providing the service? "socialized" just means government controlled, it doesn't have to be federal government.
If his point is that he doesn't like this being paid for with others' tax money; no matter what level of government it will still be tax money. Federal income tax, state income tax, local income tax, sales tax or property tax - what's the difference? It all comes out of our pockets.
Not wanting this particular program is another issue entirely, but don't tell the libertarians what you just said. Especially don't insinuate that that's what they meant. They might hunt you down and put your head on a stick. They hate federal government programs and want everything controlled by state/local governments.
Yeah, but I have a lot better chance of controlling where my city council spends money than I do getting the ear of a US senator.

Perhaps if your local government had spent adequate amounts on education you'd understand the benefit having different levels of government can bring. Clearly you're a failed result of the federal education program No Child Left Behind.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
haha touche, although I graduated in 2002 so I don't think NCLB affected me too much.

Also, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with that stance in that post. I was responding to Fern saying that it doesn't matter where that tax money is going, it's still tax money, in an explanation for bamacre's posts.
 

Auryg

Platinum Member
Dec 28, 2003
2,377
0
71
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I'm talking about freely providing condoms, birth control pills/patch/etc, spermicide, pretty much the whole slew of options available, to anyone who wants it. Maybe even so far as free tubal ligation/vasectomies. What do you think of this idea?
Birth control is cheap, why would you want to subsidize it?
Because people will spend the $40 on cable instead of birth control. Or beer. Cigarettes. Drugs. Gas. Maybe even food. But they'll still have sex, no matter what. Then society bears the cost of unplanned pregnancy, in many ways.
I really doubt such a small subsidy is really going decrease any of these problems. If you are not responsible enough to wrap that rascal for a few dollars, I doubt making it free is going to make these individuals more responsible.
The Nuvaring and the patch are incredibly convenient.
Hormonal birth control has a crapload of bad side effects. Wayyy too many women are on it the way it is - although that's the doctor's fault for not telling them.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: Deeko
haha touche, although I graduated in 2002 so I don't think NCLB affected me too much.

Also, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with that stance in that post. I was responding to Fern saying that it doesn't matter where that tax money is going, it's still tax money, in an explanation for bamacre's posts.
Gotta give you credit, you sportingly handled my being an asshole here. ;)

Libertarians aren't anarchists by any means, that's a common fallacy. It's just that the further government gets from the people it represents, the more corrupt it becomes. The current administration should be proof enough of that. That's why libertarians are amazed when people who hate Bush want to give Washington even MORE money and power than they already have. You may like Obama, hell he may be the greatest president ever. But what happens after his eight years? What if we get another Bush after we've given the full power over health care to the federal government?
 

hellokeith

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2004
1,665
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Look at it this way:

Do you want to spend your tax dollars supporting a teen mother on welfare?

Or do you want to spend your tax dollars giving away free condoms and birth control?

I can tell you now, one option is dramatically, shockingly cheaper.
Actually, the cheapest method (and most laudable) would be for all those Hollywood types that keep saying they are going to leave the USA if xyz conservative candidate gets elected but never actually leave.. they can create a national trust and fund it with the money they saved by not moving. Win-Win for everyone.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: bamacre
If this sounds like a good idea to you, then petition your own state government. Or start up your own private non-profit organization which receives donations and provides birth control products and services to people who want them.

I.e., stop stealing peoples' money.

The mentality that we need the federal government to solve all of our little wants and needs has led us into a fiscal brick wall.

The Federal government is inefficient and corrupt. The Constitution was written specifically to restrain the power of the federal government, and it gives the states and the people authority to do all kinds of things.
I suppose you prefer to pay for medical care, schools, food stamps, roads, and prisons for all of the unwanted children? It's a lot cheaper to pay for birth control.

Kind of like the present day Republican party, which forbids any funds going to family planning organizations that mention abortion, while we are being overrun by illegal Mexican immigrants. Yeah, let's stick to our principles, even if they are completely insane.
Schools, most roads, and prisons are paid for by states.

With your mentality, I wonder why we even have separate states. Why not just combine all the states, cities, towns? Make all laws federal. You people in Marin County shouldn't have a problem living just like us Tennesseans. Right?
I love all the righties on here whining about states rights, when it is the left leaning states like California and New York that are subsidizing your ass. We don't get nearly the return on our taxes that people in your state get.

2005 California paid 289 billion in federal taxes, and received 242 billion in spending
Text

California received .78 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
New York received .79 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
Massachusetts .82 "

Tennessee 1.27 "
Alabama 1.66
Arkansas 1.41
South Carolina 1.35
North Carolina 1.08

If you want to play that game you owe California $47 billion, and that's just for 2005.

Selfishness as a policy does not work. Having no benefits, such as contraception, medical care, schools, welfare, etc, does not lead to a better, more prosperous society- it leads to a country like Mexico, where everyone is fleeing from.

It's interesting to note that the countries you would call socialist, have the highest standard of living, very low crime, and the happiest people (see Denmark) in the world.


 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: marincounty
Selfishness as a policy does not work. Having no benefits, such as contraception, medical care, schools, welfare, etc, does not lead to a better, more prosperous society- it leads to a country like Mexico, where everyone is fleeing from.
Oh yes, Mexico, a grand view of a US-defined Libertarian country. :roll:

And I never understood why Libertarianism is perceived as "selfishness." Just because we don't believe the federal government should be in control of such social programs certainly does not mean we don't want to see such social programs.

And the standard of living you want to believe in is an economic illusion. SS and Medicare are bankrupting the country. When you borrow the money to pay for such benefits, and ignore the long term escalating costs, I'm sure they look good. But it will soon come time to pay the bill, and the corrupt and inefficient government you love so much will have nothing but pocket fuzz.

It's gonna come to an end sometime. And where will that leave us? Probably something resembling, gasp, Mexico.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: bamacre
If this sounds like a good idea to you, then petition your own state government. Or start up your own private non-profit organization which receives donations and provides birth control products and services to people who want them.

I.e., stop stealing peoples' money.

The mentality that we need the federal government to solve all of our little wants and needs has led us into a fiscal brick wall.

The Federal government is inefficient and corrupt. The Constitution was written specifically to restrain the power of the federal government, and it gives the states and the people authority to do all kinds of things.
I suppose you prefer to pay for medical care, schools, food stamps, roads, and prisons for all of the unwanted children? It's a lot cheaper to pay for birth control.

Kind of like the present day Republican party, which forbids any funds going to family planning organizations that mention abortion, while we are being overrun by illegal Mexican immigrants. Yeah, let's stick to our principles, even if they are completely insane.
Schools, most roads, and prisons are paid for by states.

With your mentality, I wonder why we even have separate states. Why not just combine all the states, cities, towns? Make all laws federal. You people in Marin County shouldn't have a problem living just like us Tennesseans. Right?
I love all the righties on here whining about states rights, when it is the left leaning states like California and New York that are subsidizing your ass. We don't get nearly the return on our taxes that people in your state get.

2005 California paid 289 billion in federal taxes, and received 242 billion in spending
Text

California received .78 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
New York received .79 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
Massachusetts .82 "

Tennessee 1.27 "
Alabama 1.66
Arkansas 1.41
South Carolina 1.35
North Carolina 1.08

If you want to play that game you owe California $47 billion, and that's just for 2005.

Selfishness as a policy does not work. Having no benefits, such as contraception, medical care, schools, welfare, etc, does not lead to a better, more prosperous society- it leads to a country like Mexico, where everyone is fleeing from.

It's interesting to note that the countries you would call socialist, have the highest standard of living, very low crime, and the happiest people (see Denmark) in the world.
Ever occur to you that this is a result of Clinton and other Democrats 'progressive' tax policies?

 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: marincounty
-snip-
2005 California paid 289 billion in federal taxes, and received 242 billion in spending
Text

California received .78 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
New York received .79 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
Massachusetts .82 "

Tennessee 1.27 "
Alabama 1.66
Arkansas 1.41
South Carolina 1.35
North Carolina 1.08

If you want to play that game you owe California $47 billion, and that's just for 2005.
No need to cry about the $47 Billion.

California got about $55 Billion in federal contracts that year.

TN only got about $7B that year.

Link

Fern
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: marincounty
-snip-
2005 California paid 289 billion in federal taxes, and received 242 billion in spending
Text

California received .78 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
New York received .79 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
Massachusetts .82 "

Tennessee 1.27 "
Alabama 1.66
Arkansas 1.41
South Carolina 1.35
North Carolina 1.08

If you want to play that game you owe California $47 billion, and that's just for 2005.
No need to cry about the $47 Billion.

California got about $55 Billion in federal contracts that year.

TN only got about $7B that year.

Link

Fern
Hello? Tennessee only paid $36 billion in federal taxes, California paid $289 billion.
Do the math. California got ripped off more than Tennessee even paid in taxes.

Why are righties such liars?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
CA also has 6 times more people than TN.

But who cares? How is this relevant? I smell a diversion.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: bamacre
CA also has 6 times more people than TN.

But who cares? How is this relevant? I smell a diversion.
quote"With your mentality, I wonder why we even have separate states. Why not just combine all the states, cities, towns? Make all laws federal. You people in Marin County shouldn't have a problem living just like us Tennesseans. Right?"

The point is: You're living high on the hog in Tennessee on California's tax money.
We're the ones getting screwed by the federal govt, and yet it's you righties complaining about socialism?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: marincounty
-snip-
2005 California paid 289 billion in federal taxes, and received 242 billion in spending
Text

California received .78 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
New York received .79 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
Massachusetts .82 "

Tennessee 1.27 "
Alabama 1.66
Arkansas 1.41
South Carolina 1.35
North Carolina 1.08

If you want to play that game you owe California $47 billion, and that's just for 2005.
No need to cry about the $47 Billion.

California got about $55 Billion in federal contracts that year.

TN only got about $7B that year.

Link

Fern
Hello? Tennessee only paid $36 billion in federal taxes, California paid $289 billion.
Do the math. California got ripped off more than Tennessee even paid in taxes.

Why are righties such liars?
Where's the lie?

The point is, in considering how much money a state is ahead or behind IMO one should include those fat government contracts (pork or earmarks, whatever) its Congresspersons bring to their district(s).

Apparently you'd like to omit that because it doesn't support your argument. CA has long been a leader in receiving such federal money/contracts.

Fern
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: marincounty
-snip-
2005 California paid 289 billion in federal taxes, and received 242 billion in spending
Text

California received .78 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
New York received .79 in Federal spending per dollar tax paid.
Massachusetts .82 "

Tennessee 1.27 "
Alabama 1.66
Arkansas 1.41
South Carolina 1.35
North Carolina 1.08

If you want to play that game you owe California $47 billion, and that's just for 2005.
No need to cry about the $47 Billion.

California got about $55 Billion in federal contracts that year.

TN only got about $7B that year.

Link

Fern
Hello? Tennessee only paid $36 billion in federal taxes, California paid $289 billion.
Do the math. California got ripped off more than Tennessee even paid in taxes.

Why are righties such liars?
Where's the lie?

The point is, in considering how much money a state is ahead or behind IMO one should include those fat government contracts (pork or earmarks, whatever) its Congresspersons bring to their district(s).

Apparently you'd like to omit that because it doesn't support your argument. CA has long been a leader in receiving such federal money/contracts.

Fern
Can you do arithmetic? Federal spending.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: bamacre
CA also has 6 times more people than TN.

But who cares? How is this relevant? I smell a diversion.
quote"With your mentality, I wonder why we even have separate states. Why not just combine all the states, cities, towns? Make all laws federal. You people in Marin County shouldn't have a problem living just like us Tennesseans. Right?"

The point is: You're living high on the hog in Tennessee on California's tax money.
We're the ones getting screwed by the federal govt, and yet it's you righties complaining about socialism?
First off, I'm not a "righty."

Secondly, do you have any ideas on how SS and Medicare can become sustainable?

The fiscal problems we are facing due to those two programs are not one-sided. The Republicans are just as much to blame for the mess. It was their Prescription drug plan that piled another $8 trillion in entitlements on top of the $20 trillion we couldn't afford in the first place. The longer the two parties ignore the problem, the worse it gets. And with McCain or Obama taking the lead next year, it seems the problem will definitely get worse before it gets any better.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: bamacre
CA also has 6 times more people than TN.

But who cares? How is this relevant? I smell a diversion.
quote"With your mentality, I wonder why we even have separate states. Why not just combine all the states, cities, towns? Make all laws federal. You people in Marin County shouldn't have a problem living just like us Tennesseans. Right?"

The point is: You're living high on the hog in Tennessee on California's tax money.
We're the ones getting screwed by the federal govt, and yet it's you righties complaining about socialism?
First off, I'm not a "righty."

Secondly, do you have any ideas on how SS and Medicare can become sustainable?

The fiscal problems we are facing due to those two programs are not one-sided. The Republicans are just as much to blame for the mess. It was their Prescription drug plan that piled another $8 trillion in entitlements on top of the $20 trillion we couldn't afford in the first place. The longer the two parties ignore the problem, the worse it gets. And with McCain or Obama taking the lead next year, it seems the problem will definitely get worse before it gets any better.
You aren't a lefty, that's for sure.
Obama's plan to raise Soc Security taxes up to I belive $250,000 will make Soc Security solvent for many years.

When are you going to quit the federal dole in Tennessee and live like we do?
 

Cattlegod

Diamond Member
May 22, 2001
8,687
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Who is gonna pay for all this? Where in the Constitution does it give the Federal government authority over health care?
I think the idea is that preventing bastard trailer children will be cheaper than paying for them on welfare.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
Originally posted by: marincounty
You aren't a lefty, that's for sure.
Obama's plan to raise Soc Security taxes up to I belive $250,000 will make Soc Security solvent for many years.

When are you going to quit the federal dole in Tennessee and live like we do?
it pains me to agree with bamacre but.....

A) There are more sides then just blind "right" and "left" to the political discussion

B) Neither side has a good plan to truly fix social security

C) Come on, if the federal government were drastically reduced and Tennessee had to "fend for itself" so to speak, bamacre and other libertarians would be thrilled. Why are you trying to attack him for policies in place that he doesn't like??
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: marincounty
You aren't a lefty, that's for sure.
Obama's plan to raise Soc Security taxes up to I belive $250,000 will make Soc Security solvent for many years.

When are you going to quit the federal dole in Tennessee and live like we do?
it pains me to agree with bamacre but.....

A) There are more sides then just blind "right" and "left" to the political discussion
True, but Libertarians tend more to the right.
B) Neither side has a good plan to truly fix social security
Yeah, but Obama's plan will extend solvency, will it not? Rather than kill it like Republicans would like.
C) Come on, if the federal government were drastically reduced and Tennessee had to "fend for itself" so to speak, bamacre and other libertarians would be thrilled. Why are you trying to attack him for policies in place that he doesn't like??
He is the one who invited us to live like Tennesseans-so I pointed out, gladly, they are the ones getting more out of the system than they put in, not liberal California.

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: marincounty
He is the one who invited us to live like Tennesseans
Wrong. That was, I thought, rather obvious sarcasm. In fact, it is the system you support that pushes us in that direction. Issues like, medical marijuana, for example, should show you why that system is wrong. If CA wants to legalize medical, or even recreational, marijuana, I don't think we in TN should try to stop you.
 

Superrock

Senior member
Oct 28, 2000
467
1
0
Increased contraception would decrease teen pregnancies(we are number one in developed nations btw.) and more than that, decrease the amount of criminals in the USA. According to Freakonomics, there large drop in crime in the 1990s is due to the legalized abortions from Roe vs Wade. The the large burden we have on taxes for the prison system and huge cost in legal fees for this system is huge compared to the relatively small charge it would have on social contraception.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,674
482
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Who is gonna pay for all this? Where in the Constitution does it give the Federal government authority over health care?
It's much cheaper to pay for birth control than to pay for the birth, feeding, clothing, education, and health care of children whose parents don't have a dime to their name.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: marincounty
True, but Libertarians tend more to the right.
No they don't. If you think they do it's because you're you so far left you can't even see the center.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: Balt
Originally posted by: bamacre
Who is gonna pay for all this? Where in the Constitution does it give the Federal government authority over health care?
It's much cheaper to pay for birth control than to pay for the birth, feeding, clothing, education, and health care of children whose parents don't have a dime to their name.
That's why we don't want to punish our kids with a baby.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-
Can you do arithmetic? Federal spending.
If you're suggesting that federal contracts are included in your spending figure, I looked and could find no evidence of that. If you've got some link me up please.

Fern
 

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