Socialism is taking over rural America and it's completely illegal

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Last time I checked, the government was not allowed to compete against the private sector. This is disturbing news that may bring about the downfall of capitalism if the courts don't stop it.

link

A network of one's own

When Georgia's Douglas County School System needed a communications upgrade recently, administrators took a radical step that's increasingly raising the hackles of telecommunications giants: They built their own high-capacity fiber network.

Getting local provider BellSouth to upgrade the old network would have cost millions of dollars. What's more, the school system would still have had to pay recurring charges for services related to the network. The administrators decided that by owning the equipment and taking a do-it-yourself approach, the school system could dramatically boost performance and also save money for the county's 30 Atlanta-area schools.

So far, their math appears to be working out. For a total cost of $2.2 million and a year's worth of work, Douglas County traded its old 1.5 megabit per second leased system for a brand-new 10 gigabit per second network--enough capacity to consider selling the excess for a profit. The new network, which is capable of carrying everything from voice to video to data, has also eliminated roughly $320,000 per year in recurring data communication charges, according to administrators.

"We can't lose on what we've done," said Lee Christianson, senior project manager for the school system's technology team. "The network will pay for itself in just a few years, and we haven't experienced any downtime at any of the schools that we've switched over to the fiber network."

The Douglas County School System is one of a growing number of municipalities, state and county agencies, and local governments that are building their own networks. Most of the network activity to date has been by local utilities, like electric and water companies, building their own networks in rural areas where it has been too expensive for incumbent telephone companies or cable companies to upgrade networks or install fiber.

Now the "do-it-yourself" model has begun to move into more densely populated areas, like Douglas County, where telecommunications providers and cable operators are already offering services. These municipalities want to control their own networks, and they want to be able to offer services to their government agencies or constituencies that the local incumbent provider is not offering, such as fiber to the home (FTTH).

That's struck a nerve among incumbent carriers, like the regional Bell operators, that are serving these areas. Not only do these carriers lose customers when people decide to build networks themselves, but many local governments, municipalities and educational institutions that build networks for their own use wind up selling services as well, thus becoming competitors to the regional operators.

"Many of these communities start out building the network to serve their own needs," said Derek Johnson, a spokesman for The Fiber-to-the-Home Council, an industry marketing group. "But they quickly learn that they can offer services using the excess capacity."

Incumbents fire back

The Bells and other critics counter that publicly-owned fiber networks stand on shaky legal and economic grounds.

Running a telecommunications network is not a sure thing, as many private competitive providers have already discovered. Fiber investment risks were highlighted recently in a study by Washington, D.C.-based conservative think tank The Progress & Freedom Foundation. The group examined several publicly run telecommunications networks and suggested that municipalities getting into the telecommunications game are exposing their tax- and ratepayers to significant losses.

"The municipal governments that are using their taxpayers' money to enter the telecom business are not investing that money wisely," said Thomas Lenard, senior fellow and vice president of research for the foundation. "Many of them are violating the basic principle that government should avoid entering markets where there are already private firms actively competing."

The local incumbent providers are not taking the new challenge lying down. Though they haven't launched any direct legal assaults as of yet, many have been lobbying state governments and local regulatory bodies to limit the scope of the networks.

"BellSouth hasn't taken any legal action against these municipalities," said Joe Chandler, a spokesman for the company. "We've just been sharing our views and information with local regulatory commissions to educate them on the issues."

In 2002, when a group of Missouri cities proposed building their own networks, the local incumbent, SBC Communications, and other telecommunications companies and associations lobbied the Missouri Legislature to pass a law banning cities from building networks other than for city business, 911 emergency services and education. The measure was signed into law and is now being challenged before the U.S. Supreme Court.

In Nixon v. Missouri Municipal League, Missouri State Attorney General Jay Nixon has argued that the Telecommunications Act of 1996 doesn't permit municipal telecommunications services, while the Missouri Municipal League has said it doesn't prohibit them, either.

A similar scenario is playing out in Utah, where Qwest Communications International has joined forces with the Utah Taxpayers Association to promote State Senate Bill 66, which seeks to limit the way cities spend tax dollars on building telecommunications networks.

Senate Bill 66 has already passed the Utah State Senate and will soon be debated on the State House floor. If passed, the new law would require cities to get voter approval before they pledge sales tax revenue in support of a $470 million fiber-to-the-premises network called UTOPIA (Utah Telecommunications Open Infrastructure Agency).

Local incumbent carriers, such as BellSouth, said all they really want is a level playing field. They argue that the cards are stacked against them since municipalities control the local regulatory environment and the rights-of-way for laying new fiber. They can also build new networks using taxpayer money or use excess cash from utility operations. These subsidies could allow these competitors to offer services more cheaply than a Baby Bell or a cable operator competing in the same region.

"We aren't afraid of competition; we compete everyday," said BellSouth's Chandler. "As long as they are competing on the same basis as we are and their telecom operations are self-sufficient, then we don't have a problem with them. But if they can offer cheaper services because they are being subsidized in some way, then that's not fair competition."

Fiber or bust

The criticism comes as fiber investments by cities and public agencies are on the rise, with the number of local governments offering telecommunications services increasing by 50 percent in the past two years, according to The Progress & Freedom Foundation.

In just one example, the city of Washington, D.C., last month publicly discussed its plans for building its own network and said it will have the project completed by the end of the year. The DC-Net will eventually link more than 300 sites throughout Washington, D.C., allowing the city to consolidate data and voice communications traffic from all of the city's agencies. The city expects to be able to provide real-time interactive video for public schools as well as an updated emergency communications system for the police and fire departments. The city will spend about $93 million to build the network, but it anticipates savings of at least $10 million per year in communications costs. DC-Net has contracted with MCI to run and manage the network.

"Our local phone company will definitely lose business as a result of this," said Peter Roy, deputy chief technology officer for the project. "I'm sure Verizon is not happy with our decision to build it on our own, but they can recompete for the contract to manage the network later. But unlike before, it will be our network, and we will have complete visibility into it when something goes wrong."

Verizon Communications declined to comment regarding the DC-Net network build.

Roy said Washington, D.C., has no plans to offer services over its network, but it hasn't ruled out the possibility in the future.

Other municipalities are building their own networks with the explicit intention of competing with local providers. They argue that the incumbent phone and cable companies are moving too slowly to deploy services, such as high-speed broadband and fiber.

One of the most controversial networks being built is the UTOPIA network in Utah, where 18 municipalities across the state have joined forces to construct the system. The Utah plan calls for UTOPIA to serve nearly 250,000 households and 34,500 businesses with access speeds of 100 megabits per second, at a monthly cost of $28 per subscriber.

Because UTOPIA has the potential of indirectly competing with the local Baby Bell and other broadband providers, it's not surprising that these operators--namely Qwest and Comcast--are opposed to the project. They are mounting stiff resistance to UTOPIA as well as to other similar community broadband and cable initiatives around the country.

"We strongly oppose the UTOPIA initiative," said Vince Hancock, a spokesman for Qwest. "Our position is that the government should not get into the telecom business. They shouldn't be providing services in an industry that they have a hand in regulating."

The UTOPIA network will eventually be funded by revenue it gets from leasing capacity to private service providers. But the initial cost of the network is being financed through bonds, which have been secured with taxpayer money. The idea is that as new service providers come onto the network, the access fees will be used to pay the normal operating expenses of running the network and to pay off the bonds.

Teachers splice fiber

Municipalities that build their own networks can save a significant amount of money over the long term by doing it themselves. But exactly how much they save is in proportion to how much of the work they can do themselves.

The Douglas County School System spent as little as it did on building its fiber network--which included all the networking equipment, labor costs, fiber splicing equipment, and two new trucks used in the deployment and maintenance of the network-- because it only outsourced a small portion of the project. Christianson said that hiring contractors to do the work would have more than doubled the cost of the project.

As a result, Christianson designed and configured the switching and routing gear himself. The school system even bought equipment to do its own fiber splicing and taught two teachers how to actually splice the fiber, which entails joining together two or more conductors on a cable. The only part of the project that was outsourced was the fiber installation, which required climbing to the top of utility poles and stringing fiber from pole to pole.

"Our teachers and technical staff really took pride in the work that they did," said Christianson. "And we saved a lot of money."

The Douglas County School System hasn't officially started selling excess capacity, but it is looking into barter contracts with Internet service providers and leasing agreements with the local fire department and the county sheriff's office, said Christianson, who is now running the network along with one other staff member.

"I designed this network for our schools," Christianson said. "But I made sure there was extra capacity. Schools aren't used to making money, so it's a different thought process for them. We are trying to let them know that the network could not only help them save money, but also help them make money."

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Last time I checked, the government was not allowed to compete against the private sector. This is disturbing news that may bring about the downfall of capitalism if the courts don't stop it.
rolleye.gif


Bah. What laws prohibit the government from competing with the private sector? Most government services can be, and often are provided privately: police, fire, education, water, sanitary, streets, lighting, etc. What makes data communications any different?

Smells like sour grapes to me. The Bells sit on their butts, fat and lazy, collecting the fruits of their quasi-monopolies while doing little to innovate or upgrade services. Then they cry foul when government agencies realize they can provide better service for a fraction of the cost by doing it themselves. It's a win for the taxpayers, and that's who the government is supposed to represent, We the People.

 

SViscusi

Golden Member
Apr 12, 2000
1,200
8
81
Originally posted by: Dari
This is disturbing news that may bring about the downfall of capitalism if the courts don't stop it.
The downfall of Capitalism? Don't be so melodramatic. It's a win-win situation. The goverment is able to provide it's citizens with a more efficent way to upgrade the infrasturcture. The telecom industry will then in turn do what it has to do to be more competative, wether it be lowering prices, or offering more services, or a combination of the two.

Jeez the goverment finally figures out how to do something with some efficency and people still complain.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Dari
Last time I checked, the government was not allowed to compete against the private sector. This is disturbing news that may bring about the downfall of capitalism if the courts don't stop it.
rolleye.gif


Bah. What laws prohibit the government from competing with the private sector? Most government services can be, and often are provided privately: police, fire, education, water, sanitary, streets, lighting, etc. What makes data communications any different?

Smells like sour grapes to me. The Bells sit on their butts, fat and lazy, collecting the fruits of their quasi-monopolies while doing little to innovate or upgrade services. Then they cry foul when government agencies realize they can provide better service for a fraction of the cost by doing it themselves. It's a win for the taxpayers, and that's who the government is supposed to represent, We the People.

That may sound good in theory but what happens when this government wants to expand? What about all the tax breaks and laws it'll enact to protect it's baby? What about all the other advantages, such as taxpayers' money to upgrade the system? How can the private sector compete. If you want competition, ask the government to de-regulate this sector of the communications industry. Otherwise, this government company should either be sold to the private sector or it should formulate its own board and director and make it completely independent of the gov't.

If this government company is allowed to stand and flourish, it could be the worst thing to happen to free business in human history. It's completely unacceptable.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Dari
Last time I checked, the government was not allowed to compete against the private sector. This is disturbing news that may bring about the downfall of capitalism if the courts don't stop it.
rolleye.gif


Bah. What laws prohibit the government from competing with the private sector? Most government services can be, and often are provided privately: police, fire, education, water, sanitary, streets, lighting, etc. What makes data communications any different?

Smells like sour grapes to me. The Bells sit on their butts, fat and lazy, collecting the fruits of their quasi-monopolies while doing little to innovate or upgrade services. Then they cry foul when government agencies realize they can provide better service for a fraction of the cost by doing it themselves. It's a win for the taxpayers, and that's who the government is supposed to represent, We the People.

That may sound good in theory but what happens when this government wants to expand? What about all the tax breaks and laws it'll enact to protect it's baby? What about all the other advantages, such as taxpayers' money to upgrade the system? How can the private sector compete. If you want competition, ask the government to de-regulate this sector of the communications industry. Otherwise, this government company should either be sold to the private sector or it should formulate its own board and director and make it completely independent of the gov't.

If this government company is allowed to stand and flourish, it could be the worst thing to happen to free business in human history. It's completely unacceptable.
Hogwash. You conveniently ignore everything I said, including this simple fact: government has always done this in dozens of ways, yet capitalsim still flourishes. Government provides competition in markets where there is little competition, and government provides services when no one from the private sector can or will do so economically. If the Bells aren't willing to provide the service in a cost-effective manner, it's great that the government will step in to fill the hole. If that means the poor baby Bells don't make as much money, well too damn bad. Capitalism doesn't mean you get to profit even when you sit on your dead butt refusing to innovate, refusing to invest in the future, refusing to provide services people want at competitive prices. If the various baby Bells refuse to learn this lesson, then they deserve to be replaced by someone who will, be it private sector or public.

By the way, you also forgot to show us what laws make this "completely illegal".

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Dari
Last time I checked, the government was not allowed to compete against the private sector. This is disturbing news that may bring about the downfall of capitalism if the courts don't stop it.
rolleye.gif


Bah. What laws prohibit the government from competing with the private sector? Most government services can be, and often are provided privately: police, fire, education, water, sanitary, streets, lighting, etc. What makes data communications any different?

Smells like sour grapes to me. The Bells sit on their butts, fat and lazy, collecting the fruits of their quasi-monopolies while doing little to innovate or upgrade services. Then they cry foul when government agencies realize they can provide better service for a fraction of the cost by doing it themselves. It's a win for the taxpayers, and that's who the government is supposed to represent, We the People.

BellSouth forced the issue. They have been holding entore States Hostage. Up until recently when the someone in the State of Georgia grew a set gonads, Georgia was hostage. Currently States like Louisiana are being held hostage by BellSouth. Bell had the President in that State say 110% bullcrap that "It is not possible to provide DSL service without the End User using the Voice services of BellSouth". 110% Bullsh1t. You can pull the plug on the old POS switches and DSL will work perfectly fine, in fact better as no DSL Microfilter would be needed on the line.


 

Napalm

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,050
0
0
That may sound good in theory but what happens when this government wants to expand? What about all the tax breaks and laws it'll enact to protect it's baby? What about all the other advantages, such as taxpayers' money to upgrade the system? How can the private sector compete. If you want competition, ask the government to de-regulate this sector of the communications industry. Otherwise, this government company should either be sold to the private sector or it should formulate its own board and director and make it completely independent of the gov't.

If this government company is allowed to stand and flourish, it could be the worst thing to happen to free business in human history. It's completely unacceptable.

You can't be serious... Dude - whats wrong with you??
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
0
0
oh dear, the Post Office shall put FedEx and UPS out of business! somebody better tell them!!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
My employer, a quasi-governmental agency is doing the same thing, although I don't think we plan on sharing with anybody else.

I can appreciate that the telcos should object if such homegrown networks begin to to offer competing services for sale, but that hasn't happened. It is quite conceivable, however, that they could incorporate other govt agencies into their nets on a true cost sharing basis w/o directly competing with the telcos.

Hey, it seems to me that if the telcos were the model of competitive efficiency they claim, then cost savings from this model would be impossible...

They had a big fat cash cow, but she ran away, they were milking her too hard... and now they're whining about it...



 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
I remember many completely volunteer "wire our schools" type initiatives when the Internet was relatively new (at least for the public-at-large) which was similar in concept: An all-volunteer force descended on their local school and wired the whole thing for LAN/WAN dirt cheap. Wiring up the school on-the-cheap is one thing, but the school taking their excess capacity and entering the local market with it is another. On the other hand, many municipalities own and operate their own utility services of one kind or another. Mine, for example, runs its own water and natural gas utilities. How would selling off excess network capacity be any different? I'd still rather see them share it with other gov't agencies and/or other academic institutions first rather than directly entering the market and competing . . .
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
oh dear, the Post Office shall put FedEx and UPS out of business! somebody better tell them!!

In case you haven't realize it, the Post Office is virtually private. They come under many of the same pressures as UPS and Fedex. However, they go everywhere, that is the difference. Here, these municipalities are starting services that are already provided by the local utility company. While I have no problem with them providing their own service, selling the excess capacity should ring an alarm bell throughout the halls of power. No entity should use taxpayer's money to compete unfairly against the private sector. This is completely unacceptable. If left to their own devices, these gov't entities could become for profit companies with the full benefit of a gov't agency.

I'm shocked that some people have no problem with the government directly competing against private companies whose main concerns are their customers and their shareholders, of which the latter may be the former.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
I don't have a problem with this. As long as the citizenry keeps a watch on the government, then this is only helpful. Private business monopolies have taken advantage of the government for a long time. I'm tired of our government being the private sector's bitch. I used to cry when I heard how my school's network was run and paid for. Very expensive, unreliable, and there was a reason why. If the government doesn't use governmental powers(i.e. passing laws) to do this, then I have zero problem. Now if the citizenry approve a law is fine.
 

NightCrawler

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2003
3,179
0
0
10 gigabits sounds really nice to me....the Regional Bells suck and are in no way represent the ideal of capitalism. The entire telco industry really sucks in the US.

Water, electric and now bandwidth :)
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
oh dear, the Post Office shall put FedEx and UPS out of business! somebody better tell them!!

In case you haven't realize it, the Post Office is virtually private. They come under many of the same pressures as UPS and Fedex. However, they go everywhere, that is the difference. Here, these municipalities are starting services that are already provided by the local utility company. While I have no problem with them providing their own service, selling the excess capacity should ring an alarm bell throughout the halls of power. No entity should use taxpayer's money to compete unfairly against the private sector. This is completely unacceptable. If left to their own devices, these gov't entities could become for profit companies with the full benefit of a gov't agency.

I'm shocked that some people have no problem with the government directly competing against private companies whose main concerns are their customers and their shareholders, of which the latter may be the former.


Did you also shead a tear when city water and sewer put well diggers and spetic tank installers out of business?
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Getting local provider BellSouth to upgrade the old network would have cost millions of dollars. What's more, the school system would still have had to pay recurring charges for services related to the network. The administrators decided that by owning the equipment and taking a do-it-yourself approach, the school system could dramatically boost performance and also save money for the county's 30 Atlanta-area schools.


So they decide to let Bellsouth do the work. Next year property taxes get raised to pay for the network which could have been installed much cheaper without the recurring fees. When it comes to saving the taxpayer money, I am all for it.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
I'd have been thankful if my school district did that while I was in highschool... our network was horrible.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
0
76
So you are complaining that the government did something cheaper and more efficiently? saving the taxpyaers money??
 

DanceMan

Senior member
Jan 26, 2001
474
0
0
Okay, who would object to this?
The Utah plan calls for UTOPIA to serve nearly 250,000 households and 34,500 businesses with access speeds of 100 megabits per second, at a monthly cost of $28 per subscriber.

I'm kinda torn about this myself. On the one hand, I work for one of those 'incumbent' telcos, and don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to subsidize a competitor to my employer.

But, *damn*, 100 megabits for $28? Who wouldn't want that?

The government helped build the interstate highway system, which revolutionized travel and commerce. I'm wondering if this is any different? I hear day in and day out that we are falling behind such countries as South Korea in terms of Broadband infrastructure. Maybe the government getting into the business is a case where public benefit trumps public policy.
 

Chadder007

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,560
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
oh dear, the Post Office shall put FedEx and UPS out of business! somebody better tell them!!

In case you haven't realize it, the Post Office is virtually private. They come under many of the same pressures as UPS and Fedex. However, they go everywhere, that is the difference. Here, these municipalities are starting services that are already provided by the local utility company. While I have no problem with them providing their own service, selling the excess capacity should ring an alarm bell throughout the halls of power. No entity should use taxpayer's money to compete unfairly against the private sector. This is completely unacceptable. If left to their own devices, these gov't entities could become for profit companies with the full benefit of a gov't agency.

I'm shocked that some people have no problem with the government directly competing against private companies whose main concerns are their customers and their shareholders, of which the latter may be the former.

Exactly....what if the government wanted to step in to take over say Car Sales somewhere. To protect its citizens from being "ripped off" from the salesmen and also on financing. ???? It would be all to protect the consumers right??
Totally Socialistic.
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
Public school system = evil and utterly useless

Do away with the Board of Education and issue vouchers. God knows the collective mindpower of our children if they were given 16k a year to get educated.

The high school which I graduated from would be getting 16 million a year to operate on. I could just imagine the kinds of teachers and equipment that that would buy if it was given over to a private establishment....