So, you think that new fuel efficient vehicle is gunna save you in gas huh..

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
yea, thats EXACTLY what we need to push those fuel efficient vehicles... a mileage based tax... now, given my options, if i pay the same per mile tax in my big ass SUV as someone who drives a frugal vehicle, i win... no doubt, i do more damage to the road, i have more space, i do more damage to the other cars, im more comfortable, i can see better, and i pay the same damn tax....

honestly, this is just stupid...

http://tech.slashdot.org/artic...l?sid=09/07/01/1457243
 
Dec 10, 2005
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If they want to account for the greater damage heavier cars do to roads, place a surcharge on new vehicle purchases and leases based on how heavy the car is. Taxing per mile driven via GPS tracking is a little too big brotherish.

If they want to promote buying of fuel efficient cars, increase the gas tax.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
The slashdot article is a poor recap. It's not any government agency that's field testing this, it's a university developing technology should this ever become law.

It'll never pass anyways.

Well, I shouldn't say that, something like this'll probably get shoved in a 3am amendment tacked onto another major bill and slide unnoticed through congress...
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: cubby1223
The slashdot article is a poor recap. It's not any government agency that's field testing this, it's a university developing technology should this ever become law.

It'll never pass anyways.

Well, I shouldn't say that, something like this'll probably get shoved in a 3am amendment tacked onto another major bill and slide unnoticed through congress...

The worse an idea is, the more likely it seems to be flying through congress these days.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
WE CANT BE BOTHERED TO READ THIS BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ITS TOO IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
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Originally posted by: cubby1223
The slashdot article is a poor recap. It's not any government agency that's field testing this, it's a university developing technology should this ever become law.

It'll never pass anyways.

Well, I shouldn't say that, something like this'll probably get shoved in a 3am amendment tacked onto another major bill and slide unnoticed through congress...

That would never happen! :Q
 
May 16, 2000
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Pipe dream I'm thinking. There's no way they could demand everyone put one in their vehicles, and requiring every vehicle have one could cause SERIOUS unrest issues. I for one, would at first object to the point of lawsuit, and if needs be force of arms. I will not be tracked.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
This is quite possibly the future and has been working its way toward existence for some time. Also GPS-based insurance, already tested on a limited basis, will be the future.
It'll never pass anyways.
It may in fact not, but if it doesn't the gov will simply increase taxes on gas as a whole. One way they'll get their taxes :)
 

EndGame

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2002
1,276
0
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That's another reason the energy bill, in it's current form is such a farce also.........if they don't get the money they want one way, they'll just pass a new law to get it another!
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,664
0
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Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
yea, thats EXACTLY what we need to push those fuel efficient vehicles... a mileage based tax... now, given my options, if i pay the same per mile tax in my big ass SUV as someone who drives a frugal vehicle, i win... no doubt, i do more damage to the road, i have more space, i do more damage to the other cars, im more comfortable, i can see better, and i pay the same damn tax....

honestly, this is just stupid...

http://tech.slashdot.org/artic...l?sid=09/07/01/1457243

This is just another form of protectionism to keep the gas guzzlers rolling off the line & into the mindless consumer's garage.

It would be interesting to see the science of how hybrids (which don't weigh much) degrade the roads compared to SUVs. I understand that even high efficiency vehicles wear & tear our roads, but I seriously doubt their impact is anywhere near as great as, say, an Escalade or H3.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,380
8,509
126
iirc, the only vehicles that do measurable damage to interstate grade roads are big rigs, dump trucks, and buses.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
I'd like to see somebody force me to have a GPS in every petroleum burning vehicle I own.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,824
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Old story-it came up in Jan or Feb, and at that time it also came up this would be-at most-an experiment. Not only that, an experiment that the Obama administration wasn't particularly fond of.

Personally, I think odds are we will have some sort system like this in the future but two big problems have to be solved first. First and foremost is the privacy issue. The ability of the government to track every vehicle is a total nonstarter, won't happen in the US. Secondly (and a smaller problem) is some way to classify the vehicles. The owner of a Jetta TDI uses the same fuel but does a lot less wear and tear on the roads as an 18 wheeler. They certainly shouldn't pay the same rate per mile.

The highway fund-which is used to maintain and rebuild our highways and bridges-is experiencing a huge decline in income because of reduced usage and better fleet mileage. Something has to be done to raise the income or our roads will get worse. Personally I'm in favor of a straight per gallon tax increase-but I always buy fuel efficient vehicles. The SUV crowd may not like that.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Yes this is the vision of our govt. They raise fuel efficiency then to make up for lost gas taxes will come up with taxing a flat rate on mileage.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,283
134
106
If you want to make people pay more who drive less efficient vehicles, then you are already doing it. It is called the gas tax. This kind of "Mileage" tax is just a form of double taxation.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,751
595
126
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is quite possibly the future and has been working its way toward existence for some time. Also GPS-based insurance, already tested on a limited basis, will be the future.
It'll never pass anyways.
It may in fact not, but if it doesn't the gov will simply increase taxes on gas as a whole. One way they'll get their taxes :)

Certainly, I agree.

I need $100 in revenue. Gas tax already exists. I increase the gas tax, citizens are slightly poorer but revenue target is met.

I need $100 in revenue. I implement a costly and complicated system to tax vehicle mileage that currently doesn't exist. I need to pay for the upfront cost to implement the system and ongoing and potentially increasing costs of collection, expansion and of course enforcement. I get my revenue target, but I have to also increase that target to pay for the cost of collecting that revenue. Citizens are poorer still.

Its just a bad bang for the buck. The only reason we keep creating new retarded ways to double tax the same thing is to try to confuse the populace so they don't notice they're getting ass raped. It certainly doesn't save money or even efficiently generate revenue. That's the worst part of this idea.

Fuck, the only reason I can think for even suggesting it is to use it as a smokescreen to implement a wide reaching big brother program. A cheaper to implement and enforce program that would accomplish the same goal: Tire tax. Still a bad idea but way less bad then this one.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Yes this is the vision of our govt. They raise fuel efficiency then to make up for lost gas taxes will come up with taxing a flat rate on mileage.

Yep. The exec driving the 9,000 pound Excursion to work 3 miles per day will pay far less in taxes now than the pizza delivery guy in his 2,500 pound Yaris. :D

That damn Yaris is tearing the hell out of the roads, damnit! :|

:p
 
Feb 19, 2001
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WTF IS THE POINT OF THIS?

We have a gas tax already. Just throw it on the GAS TAX. A GPS is pointless and all it does is give the government power to monitor WHERE you go. A gas tax ALREADY charges you by the mile because essentially each gallon equates to X # of miles your car can drive. So we're going to invest more in putting a GPS in every car so we can track how many miles they go when we can just slap on another tax onto gasoline for NO COST. How much do you have to tax per mile to break even for putting GPSes on to begin with? Why add this extra cost burden. Now if this is a silly attempt to be able to track everyone's location then this might be interesting....

Oh and one way to look at this is a FLAT TAX system. As someone pointed out, the mileage on your car doesn't matter anymore. It's raw # of miles. You're not rewarded or punished for driving a low or high mpg car.

The gas tax is equivalent to the progressive tax system where the more gas you need (even if it's the same # of miles), the more you get taxed. Just like the more money you make, the more you get taxed even if you spend the same.
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
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Originally posted by: cubby1223
The slashdot article is a poor recap. It's not any government agency that's field testing this, it's a university developing technology should this ever become law.

It'll never pass anyways.

Well, I shouldn't say that, something like this'll probably get shoved in a 3am amendment tacked onto another major bill and slide unnoticed through congress...


Naw, it isn't a goverment agency testing this......:roll:


In Oregon it sure is..........Text

 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
All they have to do is implement it in Europe and the libs on this board will flock to it.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Originally posted by: CPA
All they have to do is implement it in Europe and the libs on this board will flock to it.

The libs will flock to it no matter what for three reasons: government expansion, and we all know more government is always better; increased taxes - we all know the less money people spend and the more they hand over to politicians to spend, the better; fewer people can afford to drive - more will be forced to be dependent on government transportation, dependence on government is always a good thing.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
The problem with being a blind ideologue is it seems to require disconnecting those areas of the brain responsible for reasoning and reading comprehension. Let's take a look at some of the sky-is-falling hyperbole in this thread, for example (paraphrased):

1. This penalizes fuel-efficient vehicles -- How so? Gas guzzlers still have to buy more gas than efficient vehicles. The more fuels efficeint your car, the less gas you buy, the more you save. Reducing or eliminating the gas tax in favor of a mileage tax doesn't change that.

2. Big vehicles do more damage, so they should pay more -- First, As Elfenix mentions and according to a study reported on the State of Oregon web site, heavy automobiles do NOT cause materially more damage than smaller autos. Large, heavy trucks (e.g., semis), however, do appreciably more damage and are already charged higher fees to compensate. In some states (e.g. Iowa), motor vehicle registration fees are based partly on weight, so heavier personal cars and trucks are charged more. I don't know how common that practice is. Finally, if it is determined that weight should be a factor for personal cars and trucks, it would be easy to charge a variable mileage rate based on vehicle weight.

3 MOAR TAXES!!!!! MOAR TAXES!!!!! -- The idea is replacing the existing fuel tax with a new mileage tax. I'm certainly not so naive as to think some governments won't try to take advantage of this, but they will be pressured by the same reactions that keep them from further raising fuel taxes. In fact, if this was implemented as a tax paid directly by the taxpayer (as opposed to something hidden in fuel prices as it is today), there would be greater pressure to limit the tax since it would be more visible. If it is implemented at the point of sale like the Oregon pilot, it would be more like the current gas tax.

4. This is more than an academic study. Oregon is pushing it. -- Not very actively, it appears. It may be somewhere on the Oregon governor's web page as the link above claims, but I didn't find it. It certainly isn't listed as one of his top priorities. Oregon did form a task force to study the idea and conduct a pilot (in 2003). As far as I can tell from their on-line records, this task force last met in 2004.

5. It's an invasion of privacy -- It certainly could be, and I agree that's a valid concern. Once we install tracking devices in all cars, no matter how benign the initial usage may be, it's only a matter of time before it is abused to infringe upon our right to travel freely without Big Brother's oversight. (By the way, Big Brother isn't limited to law enforcement. There are all sorts of business interests who would love to have that data: insurance companies, marketing groups, etc.) Unfortunately, we're moving more and more that direction anyway with the ubiquity of cellular devices and GPS, which is exactly why this idea was proposed in the first place.

6. Europe, libs, learning Chinese, and other stupidity -- Grow up or go outside and play. Your childish noise adds nothing and makes it difficult for adults to have intelligent discussions.


Personally, I think the basic concept bears consideration. We want roads, we need some way to pay for them, and a usage tax based on mileage seems to be a reasonable approach. Like the current fuel tax system, it focuses costs on the people who use roads most. Unfortunately, in order to make it practical, I think we would have to implement it uniformly at a national level, using a simple, cheap device already in every car ... an odometer. GPS seems too intrusive, too expensive, and too easy to game -- just block the antenna, especially before trips. I also think the Oregon approach of collecting the tax at gas stations is flawed. Alternative fuel vehicles like biodiesel and electrics will grow in popularity, creating more and more vehicles that never stop at gas stations. They need to pay their fair share, unless we decide to exempt them for other energy policy reasons ... at which point we should just keep it simple and stick to the current system of fuel taxes.

Cliff notes: Interesting potential in spite of the usual knee-jerk partisan hysteria, but significant practical and privacy obstacles to clear.

 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
because if Europe does something that we aren't doing, it must be a dumb idea.....

This topic isn't worthy of fly shit, let alone this many posts

/thread
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,080
136
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
If they want to account for the greater damage heavier cars do to roads, place a surcharge on new vehicle purchases and leases based on how heavy the car is. Taxing per mile driven via GPS tracking is a little too big brotherish.

If they want to promote buying of fuel efficient cars, increase the gas tax.
I would really like it if they came up with special licenses and fees for folks who wanna drive anything the size of a F-250 and up. If people really think they need those things they shouldnt have a problem with getting a comercial license. Obviously money is not a concern for them given how much they spend on gasoline.

Its kind of ironic I would suggest such a thing. I drive a V6 S-10 and that sucker gets poor mileage relative to its weight. Its basically a mini gas guzzler.