So you think it is cool to leave the suburbs and join Al-qaeda?

[cave_dweller]

No takers? Well let me answer it then. Short and sweet.

What is a good muslim
All Muslims are under some requirement to emulate the life of Muhammad

Thats it. I know what some going say. That is Bullshit Bill Warner said that. He hates muslims he is this. Well I proof to you he said it but was not the only one.

I said this in a earlier post.

Quoting is the weakest source to use.

as well as
Islam is Quaran and the Sunna
and that SO called plagarism

The next best true source of Islam is the Sharia. If it is in the Trilogy or Sharia, it is Islam. If it is not in the Trilogy or Sharia, it is not Islam.

So I went to Pro Islam sites. Those sites that explains the Quaran and so on but do not tell you how to read it correctly. But they still tell you what the Sunna and the Quaran is. The following will answer all the points I mentioned a couple of lines up.

The Sunnah is the way of life of Prophet Muhammad, God bless him and grant him peace. Muslims strive to follow the Sunnah in everyday life. For example, they worship as Prophet Muhammad, God bless him and grant him peace, worshipped, eat the way he ate, solve problems as he did, care for the family as he did, etc.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Sunna

Ok that is from Wiki answers we can debate against that. Lets go to the Pro Islam sites

The Quran is the foundation of Islamic Law. It is the miraculous speech of God that was revealed to the Messenger, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, by way of the angel Gabriel. It has been transmitted to us with so many chains of authority that its historical authenticity is unquestionable. It is written down in its own volume, and its recitation is a form of worship.

As for the Sunnah, it is everything besides the Quran that came from God’s Messenger. It explains and provides details for the laws found in the Quran. It also provides examples of the practical application of these laws. It is also either direct revelation from God, or decisions of the Messenger that were then confirmed by revelation. Therefore, the source of all the Sunnah is revelation.

The Quran is the revelation that is formally recited as an act of worship, and the Sunnah is revelation that is not formally recited. The Sunnah, though, is just like the Quran in that it is revelation that must be followed and adhered to.
The Quran provides the general injunctions that formed the basis of the Law, without going into all the details and secondary legislation, with the exception of a few injunctions that are established along with the general principles. These injunctions are not subject to change over time or with the changing circumstances of the people. The Quran, likewise, comes with the tenets of belief, sets down acts of worship, mentions the stories of the nations of old, and provides moral guidelines.

Quoting the Quaran without the supporting text is the weakest source to use.

The Sunnah comes in agreement with the Quran. It explains the meanings of what is unclear in the text, provides details for what is depicted in general terms, specifies what is general, and explains its injunctions and objectives. The Sunnah also comes with injunctions that are not provided by the Quran, but these are always in harmony with its principles, and they always advance the objectives that are outlined in the Quran.

The Sunnah is a practical expression of what is in the Quran. This expression takes many forms. Sometimes, it comes as an action performed by the Messenger. At other times, it is a statement that he made in response to something. Sometimes, it takes the form of a statement or action of one of the Companions that he neither prevented nor objected to. On the contrary, he remained silent about it or expressed his approval for it.
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/655/

In Arabic, the wording is Hojjiyat As-Sunnah. This basically means that the Sunnah can be used as evidence in Shariah, and that Allah (swt) has ordered us to follow the Sunnah and avoid anything it has prohibited for us. In other words, this means that it is obligatory on every Muslim to believe in what the Sunnah tells us, and to act according to the Sunnah in all aspects of our life and ensure that we do not commit any actions that contradict the Sunnah.

3. The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an:

The Sunnah can be divided into three parts:
Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it.
Explanatory Sunnah. This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts: expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an.
Sunnah that brings new legislation. This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an.
http://www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php


The Qur'ân is the word of God which was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, and preserved both verbally and in writing by his Companions. Apart from the Qur'ân, whatever the Prophet uttered or did was also preserved by the Companions. Thus the Sunnah includes the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, known commonly as hadiths (i.e. sayings), his practices, and actions which gained his approval. Both the Qur'ân and the Sunnah fall under a common title "wahy" (i.e. revelation or inspiration); the difference between the two is that the Qur'ân is a revelation which is recited (matalu) in the formal prayer (salat) while the Sunnah is not recited in the formal prayers. The importance of the Sunnah as the second source of Islam.

Remember this. Look a line up and down again.

The next best true source of Islam is the Sharia. If it is in the Trilogy or Sharia, it is Islam. If it is not in the Trilogy or Sharia, it is not Islam.

Lets go on

First of all, we will establish that the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, not only received the verses of the Qur'ân from God, but he also received other revelation from time to time which is now preserved in the form of hadiths. The following examples show how the Qur'ân itself refers to this revelation:

1. According to verse 144 of Sûrah al-Baqarah (Chapter 2 of the Qur'ân), God Almighty commanded the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, to face the Ka'bah (in Mecca) in his daily prayers instead of Jerusalem.

"We see the turning of thy face to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction."

But why was the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, facing Jerusalem before that? Verse 143 (of Sûrah al-Baqarah) shows that God Himself had appointed Jerusalem as the initial Qiblah (i.e. direction faced when praying) for the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him.

"And we appointed the Qiblah to which thou was used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the Faith)."

The appointment of the previous Qiblah is referred to as being in the past. But there is no verse in the Qur'ân which commands the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, to face Jerusalem at the beginning of his mission! Therefore, the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, must have received this guidance from God in a form other than the Qur'ân. As we have said above, this alternative revelation is preserved in the Sunnah.

2. In verse 3 of Sûrah al-Tahreem (Chapter 66 of the Qur'ân), a certain incident is cited.

Do you see that the Quaran is seamless? See the one needs the other to explain a text. Without it it will not make sense.

"When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives, and she then divulged it, and God made it known to him, he confirmed a part of it and repudiated a part. Then when he told her of it, she said, 'Who told you this?' He said, 'He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)'."

We must consider carefully the phrases "God made it known to him" and "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted", The question is, how did God make it known to him and tell him? Certainly not via the Qur'ân, since there is no mention of it anywhere else in the Book of God. Therefore, the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, must have been told via revelation from God which is not part of the Qur'ân.
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/sunnah/0035.htm

Nor does he (the Prophet) say (aught) of his own desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him (Najm 53:3-4). And Allāh, the Exalted, also said: For Allāh has sent down to you the Book and Wisdom and taught you what you knew’st not (before): and great is the Grace of Allāh unto you (Nisaa 4:113). And the Book is the Qur’ān and the Wisdom is the Sunnah which Allāh has sent down via revelation and inspiration.
http://iqra.net/Hadith/source.php

Now why do a person who wants to show the people on how to read the Quaran and decide for themselves get blasted or anyone who tries the same thing? I thought in the US freewill rules. I am not saying it is evil I am saying go read it yourself and decide for yourself. But you need to know how to read it. You can take the Quaran and read it. It will make no sense. If someone have a opinion about something listen what he has to say and then go read the it for yourself. I have seen Bill Warrens new stuff and if you just read it without going evil evil because someone else said so. He is trying to show you how to read the Quaran and Sunna correctly and to understand it. I did not learn how to read it from him I learned how to read it from a apostate. A apostate is basically the only person that can tell you nothing but the truth about it thats why they are so hated.

Just to show you this from the English language translation of the Saudi-published Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur’an in the English Language, one can read “Appendix III -- The Call to Jihad -- (Holy Fighting for Allah in the Qur’an Statement),” written by Saudi Arabia’s Chief Justice, and learn that jihad -- holy fighting in Allah’s Cause -- is a requirement of Islam:

The Verses of the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the Prophet's legal ways, orders) exhort Muslims greatly to take part in Jihad and have made quite clear its rewards, and praised greatly those who perform Jihad (the holy fighting in Allah's Cause) and explained to them various kinds of honours which they will receive from their Lord (Allah). This is because they - Mujahidin are Allah's troops. Allah will establish His religion (Islam), through them (Mujahidin). He will repel the might of His enemies, and through them He will protect Islam and guard the religion safely. And it is they (Mujahidin) who fight against the enemies of Allah in order that the worship should be all for Allah (Alone and not for any other deity) and that the Word of Allah (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and His religion Islam) should be superior.

Then, from a translated 2005-2006 school-year edition of the 12th grade Saudi school textbook (already sanitized due to U.S. State Department pressure), one finds the requirements of jihad:

• Scholars have noted that jihad is obligatory for the individual in three cases:

o (2) If the infidels attack a specific country, it is obligatory for its people to fight them and repel them. Self-defense is a duty. Allah said, "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors."

• When is battle jihad in the path of Allah?

o To fulfill an order from God, sacrifice in His path, spread the creed of monotheism, defend the realms of Islam and Muslims, and raise up the Word of Allah. This is jihad in the path of God.

• Jihad continues until the Day of Resurrection

o It is part of God's wisdom that he made the clash between truth and falsehood continue until the Day of Resurrection. As long as this clash endures, jihad continues. It is not limited to a specific time. As long as there is falsehood, error, and unbelief, the jihad continues.

The three items enumerated above lay the foundation for “extremist” claims

That is what they learn in schools. That is why they go from all countries to fight the US. Because the US attacked Islam and it demands retaliation. It gets taught in the schools.

The next piece explains how to read the Quaran and Sunna. The example used as verses is just examples on to show you to read it in its correct form that its in the same sort of context as the bible.

Understanding The Koran

Have you ever heard someone say: “What we need is a new translation of the Koran.” What they really mean is that we need a Koran we can read and understand. The difficulties of reading the Koran are notorious and common.

The Koran is repetitious and chaotic. Who do you know who has read the Koran and says that they understand it? The muddled chaos is passed off as profoundness. The confusion is proof of the Koran’s deep wisdom. Right. But, if the Koran were handed to an English teacher, it would receive an F as a grade. And as it turns out, the translation has almost nothing to do with the problem.
CHRONOLOGY: Imagine that you are an English teacher or an editor and the Koran manuscript landed on your desk. You would not ask for a better translation.
Your first step would be to put the document in order. That turns out to be almost trivial. Your Koran from the bookstore has the long chapters up front and the short chapters at the end. The correct time order of the chapters is well known to scholars. Anybody with access to the Web can download a version of the Koran and use any word processor to produce a Koran in the right time order.
This is the crucial first step. When you turn the page of the Koran, you advance in time. The first step produces a chronological Koran.
CATEGORIES: The next problem you face in preparing a readable Koran is deciding how to break up the suras (chapters) into topics and paragraphs.
How do you break it up into topics and paragraphs? The Koran is filled with stories that allow easy categorization. The story of Moses is easily recognized as a topic. Then there are the endless repetitive Arabic stories of Thamud and others. But there remains a lot of verbiage that is not a story. How should it be arranged into topics?
The stream of violence that runs throughout the Koran gives insight into its structure. The violence is not random, but turns out to have a internal order to it. Take Hell, for instance. If you highlight the violent references to the unbelievers, you will find that there are five elements that accompany the violence:
A description of the threat or violence
Whom is threatened
What they did to deserve the violence
How they are wrong
Words from Allah to support his messenger, Mohammed
I call this structure the Koranic Argument. The argument is that the kafirs are wrong, Mohammed is right and violence will come to those who deny him.

The Koranic Argument is a natural organizational element of the Koran. The verse is useful but it does not allow analysis of ideas and thought. After all, a verse is usually just a sentence. People who use individual verses to prove anything about the Koran would never turn around and analyze Kant or Marx on the basis of sentences. No, you want to analyze thoughts, and a sentence is too small a unit for critical, systemic thought. The Koranic Argument allows easy textual analysis of thought, ideas and theme.
The Meccan Koran can be divided into three phases. At first Mohammed only told those who were close to him about his message in private teachings. Then he publicly taught Islam in public teachings. The third phase in Mecca took place during the intense resistance of the Meccans.

In the second and third phases of the Meccan Koran, some of the ancient tales from Arabic lore and the Jewish literature are of the Koranic persuasion category since they have the same structure in distant time. In the second phase, 20 of the ancient tales are also Koranic persuasion. In the third phase there are 12.

This data mirrors the history of Mohammed’s life. In the Meccan religious phase, the violence took the form of threats of punishment that were to occur after death in Hell. Or the mentioned violence was in ancient history, i.e. the Pharaoh being destroyed because he would not listen to Allah’s prophet, Moses. In Mecca the Koranic violence referred to the far future or the distant past. However, in Medina, there is less talk about Hell, and much more physical violence against political enemies. The action of jihad replaces the rhetoric of the threat of punishment.

Approximately two thirds of the Koran of Mecca is devoted to the Koranic Argument of “listen to Mohammed, the prophet of the only god, Allah, or you will suffer eternal torture in Hell.” When Mohammed achieved political power, the religious threats became political reality. The Koranic Argument of religion in Mecca became the political practice in Medina.

Approximately 51% of the Medinan Koran text is about jihad and verbal threats directed against Jews, non-Muslims and hypocrites (half-hearted Muslims). The Koran of Medina is 10.8% Jew hatred in nature. By comparison, only 6.8% of the text (measured by paragraphs) of Adolph Hitler’s Mein Kamph is anti-Jewish.

REPETITION: Once the Koran is placed into the right chronological order, the next step is to group together all of the similar repetitive material. One of the most tiresome things about the Koran is the endless repetition. The story of Moses is told 39 times.

Once the Koran is categorized, the similar topics can be grouped together. This greatly simplifies the understanding and ease of reading. When similar topics are grouped, it becomes easy to skip over them and not feel like you are missing anything. It also allows the reader to see the small changes in the stories.

When the stories are grouped, another thing really stands out. Allah was no story teller. A story has a beginning, a middle and an end. Not one story in the Koran can stand on its own. There are always missing pieces. Even the Joseph story, which is the best in the Koran, is incomplete.
CONTEXT: There is one missing piece to Koranic puzzle. The missing piece is Mohammed. Only Mohammed makes the Koran make any sense. Take as an example:
Koran 59:5 Allah gave you permission to cut down some palm trees and leave others intact so as to shame the wicked [the Jews]. After Allah gave the spoils to His Messenger, you made no move with horses or camels to capture them [the Jews], but Allah gives His messengers power over what He chooses. Allah is all-powerful.
If you are reading along, this verse just jumps out at you without any context. Why is Allah suddenly talking about palm trees? The answer is that Mohammed attacked the Jews and part of his jihad was to destroy their economy by cutting down their date palm plantations.
If we take and weave Mohammed’s life into the Koran, then the Koran has a context and all of the mystery is gone. What is interesting is that by weaving Mohammed into the Koran, we have reproduced the original Koran. It unfolded as needed by Mohammed. His life is integral to the Koran.
When Mohammed’s life is integrated into it, the Koran becomes an epic story that ends with the triumph of political Islam.
AN HISTORICAL TEXT: The Koran is a precise historical record of Mohammed’s political campaign. The repetition shows it to be a history of Mohammed’s campaign in Mecca. The Meccan Koran is an record of Mohammed’s attempts to convince the Arabs of the superiority of Islam. Imagine that as a reporter you followed and recorded a candidate over the course of his campaign. You would hear the same story again and again. Repetition is the best way to convince the public. Witness the repetition in any ad or PR campaign. It is not enough to say it once. You must say it again and again.
The Koran was delivered by Mohammed to the Arabs. And like any other campaigner, he repeated the same stories and arguments. The Koran faithfully records his political campaign. The Koran of Mecca is an exact description of what took place in the intellectual and political sphere. Koranic Argument is a recording of actual events of debate and argument. In many cases, there are actual quotes of Mohammed’s opponents.
The Medinan Koran chronicles the exact history of the rise of Islamic political power. The Koran is both a religious text and a political/historical text. The Koran contains an intimate and exact view of Arabian history. As a political/historical text, the Koran can be viewed as a biography of Mohammed.

SUMMARY: The Koran can made to be simple to understand by using:
Chronology—putting the verses in the original historical order.

Category—the method of grouping verses around the same subject. There can be discussion about which categories to use, but the Koranic Argument method of categorization produces the simplest text.
Context—using Mohammed’s life to give the circumstances and environment of the text.

With the analytic tools of Chronology, Category and Context, the Koran becomes a clear and simple text. The CCC analytic method most closely duplicates the historical words spoken by Mohammed.
The classical method of presenting the Koranic text is based upon the length of the chapters. It starts with the longest sura and ends with the shortest sura. It is an arbitrary method of presenting the words spoken by Mohammed. It has failed to produce a text that can be easily understood. (It is my opinion that the Koran, Sira and Hadith were deliberately made difficult to understand.)
In scientific philosophy the term, Occam’s Razor, refers to the principle that the simplest theory that will explain the facts is the best theory. Using the criteria of Occam’s Razor shows that Chronology, Category and Context is the best method to reveal the meaning of the Koran. No other method produces clarity, hence, CCC is the best method of organization of the Koran and is superior to the standard Koran text.
The CCC method was used by the Center for the Study of Political Islam to produce the Simple Koran and the Abridged Koran.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/Bill_Warner/Understanding_The_Koran/

The good and bad muslim I also mentioned earlier is now simple to see. The good muslim is the extremist. The bad muslim is your neighbour the one you see a lot who does not believe in voilence. He is a bad muslim because he does not strive to live like Muhammad fully. If you go read up on Muhammads life and seen all the batlles he has thought and killed everyone who was a unbeliever. Now that is what Islam say every muslim must live like Muhammad. Muhammad killed the unbelievers and the extremist is just being the good muslim by doing what Muhammad did. Kill the unbelievers.

But you can go read for yourself and make up your own mind

 

[Orignal Earl]

cave dweller
Would you mind telling us what you think a true Christian or a true Jew is?

 

[cave_dweller]

cave dweller
Would you mind telling us what you think a true Christian or a true Jew is?

Why do you ask that? Do you want to compare the religions? How about Jesus against Muhammad. How many people did Jesus kill? How many people did Muhammad kill? Do christians and jews strive to live like a murderous cult leader? Does their religion demand that? No

The truth is that Muhammad was a cult leader, much like Jim Jones, Shoko Asahara and Charles Manson. Unlike them he succeeded because there was no central power in the seventh century Arabia to stop him.

The Danish cartoon test case, and other such cases, showed us how various Muslims will respond, i.e., not only by demanding censorship and punishment* of the artists and publishers, etc., but also by engaging in deadly violence against people who had really nothing to do with making the cartoons

Show me proof where any holy scripture from both Jews and Christians states that the true Christian or Jew must kill anyone who does not believe in the same thing. Please show me and show me which country is that the law that must be adhered to?

SIRA: The totality of Islam is belief in the perfect truth of the Koran and following the Sunna of Mohammed. The Sira is the life of Mohammed. There are three versions of the Sira given by three authors--Ibn Ishaq, al-Tabari, and Ibn Sa'd. They tell the same story, except for small details. Ishaq's Sira is the oldest and the most authoritative.

MOHAMMED, THE FILM: If the Sira were a 2-hour movie of Mohammed as a prophet, it would go like this:

Mohammed has his first revelation in the first scene. The first fight starts 2 minutes into the movie. After that it is plotting, shouting, arguing, threatening and preaching. Even when the scene is in Mohammed's camp, the backdrop is always the struggle with the kafirs. Then 34 minutes into the film, the first killing happens and killing continues for the next 1 ½ hours. Armed raids, assassinations, plots, spies, executions, torture, rape, battles, and on and on. Kafirs (non-Muslims) die and lose. Mohammed dies. Islam triumphs. End of film.

 

[Orignal Earl]

cd, you are too far gone for anything I can say.
My only hope is that you keep your little war in your head and don't ever take it to the streets

 

[ky54]

cd, you are too far gone for anything I can say.
My only hope is that you keep your little war in your head and don't ever take it to the streets

Please post up your refutations instead of personal attacks.

 

[feralkid]

I didn't justify anything, I have no need to justify anything. Terrorism is evil, and if there's one fewer terrorist in the world to worry about that's better for everyone. Very simple, really, unless your mind is messed up with self hate

See, that's where you are totally fucked up in your thinking.

"Terrorism" is nothing more than a tactic, and the good guys use it as well as the "bad guys".

Your logic is the equivalent of believing that Pearl Harbor was attacked by Aviation, therefore all aviators are evil.

 

[Moonbeam]

See, that's where you are totally fucked up in your thinking.

"Terrorism" is nothing more than a tactic, and the good guys use it as well as the "bad guys".

Your logic is the equivalent of believing that Pearl Harbor was attacked by Aviation, therefore all aviators are evil.

He will not really want to understand what you are saying because he is a terrorist and believes that one less terrorist in the world would be a good thing. You see where that's going, no?????? I don't think he's going to want to.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Please post up your refutations instead of personal attacks.

I've posted hundreds of refutations to this crap before.
We've had plenty of good Muslim posters come in and try too.
How about this, instead of sitting on a message board, how about going out and meeting your enemy.
Go outside, walk down to your local mosque, and meet these people and talk to them

edit- I posted a response on the other page, it kind of got ignored