So why do car manuf'rs kill good in-line cylinder engines?

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Is it just me? I'm still rockin' a good ol' 2004 Jeep GCL with the 4.0L I-6 in it. Its common knowledge thats one of the best engines ever as far as reliability. They replaced it with that 3.7L pile-o-crap and that is being superceded by the newer and probably better 3.6L Pentastar.

It just seems like they could've tweaked it some more or made a new version of it to keep that smooth inline feel. And I'm sure Jeep isn't the only manufacturer to kill reliable engines for seemingly no good reason. Its like the big board members at these companies say, "What? It runs good? Its proving to be reliable? We certainly can't have any of that! Kill it!"

I don't know what made me think of this. Workin' midnite shift and can't sleep, blah...
 

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Emissions targets.

Well this is what I was talking about when I said they could've re tweaked it. My Jeep can get 23-24 mpg hwy when driven conservatively (55mph, slow starts) which is what the new ones with the 3.6L Pentastar get! Doesn't seem like there was a very good reason to do away with it. I even thought about the 4.6L Stroker mod engines too... I don't know. Just seems odd. The biggest problem I've had with this engine in the 74K that I've put on it was a vacuum hose.
 
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sjwaste

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Aug 2, 2000
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For most manufacturers, an I6 is too large in one dimension to be used across its lineup of 6-cylinder powered vehicles. I have a Supra (3L turbo I-6), and I cannot imagine them dropping that thing into an FWD car, or even fitting it under the hood of the same year Camry. That they managed to ship the Cressida with it was impressive, but it had a long hood.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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The 4.0L was a great engine, torque came in low in the RPM range, and very good reliability. It was a comparably low tech engine, with its roots going back to the AMC straight sixes, but worked very well. However, it was thirsty and wasn't used in very many vehicles (near the end of it's production run it had dwindled to just an optional engine on the wrangler). In the end rather than doing a redesign to bring it up to snuff against the competition they decided to save costs by sharing engines with other models.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
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For most manufacturers, an I6 is too large in one dimension to be used across its lineup of 6-cylinder powered vehicles. I have a Supra (3L turbo I-6), and I cannot imagine them dropping that thing into an FWD car, or even fitting it under the hood of the same year Camry. That they managed to ship the Cressida with it was impressive, but it had a long hood.

I was thinking that the V-6 is more compact that a straight 6 but the straight 6 is inherently a smoother engine.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,967
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the eco-KOOKS want to get rid of combustion motors. So they keep establishing unrealistic tailpipe emission standards which require mfgr's to re-invent motors that will comply. As soon as they do the eco-KOOKS change the rules again to obsolete the motors complying to existing standards and force the mfgr's to start all over. Huge waste of R+D research asset that could be better spent on vehicle safety.
 

sjwaste

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Aug 2, 2000
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I was thinking that the V-6 is more compact that a straight 6 but the straight 6 is inherently a smoother engine.

The V6 is more compact in almost all cases. Since manufacturers want to use the same engine in multiple models, the I6 gets dropped. It costs a lot to produce an engine, and if used in only one model, or even as an option on relatively few models, it's obviously cheaper to just go with the V6 that can be used in more models.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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The V6 is more compact in almost all cases. Since manufacturers want to use the same engine in multiple models, the I6 gets dropped. It costs a lot to produce an engine, and if used in only one model, or even as an option on relatively few models, it's obviously cheaper to just go with the V6 that can be used in more models.

This is the truth. In reality the 4.0 was a good Jeep motor, but not that great for anything else. This isn't a decision forced by emissions/politics, this is a purely BUSINESS decision, which thankfully makes a lot of sense. The Pentastar 3.6L is a dramatic improvement over the 4.0L in efficiency, power, weight, has cylinder deactivation, still runs on 87, now offers E85 support, etc, and is slated to get direct injection and turbocharging soon (think of that awesome Ford Ecoboost). We're talking mountains of torque like a V8 way down low, but with the fuel economy of a typical V6 still.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Well this is what I was talking about when I said they could've re tweaked it. My Jeep can get 23-24 mpg hwy when driven conservatively (55mph, slow starts) which is what the new ones with the 3.6L Pentastar get! Doesn't seem like there was a very good reason to do away with it. I even thought about the 4.6L Stroker mod engines too... I don't know. Just seems odd. The biggest problem I've had with this engine in the 74K that I've put on it was a vacuum hose.

The engine was great, but it was a legacy engine for Chrysler from AMC, and, as people have told you, the size/packaging efficiency of a straight six no longer makes sense.

These are the reasons it was only used in the Jeep. As emission controls tightened, they kept meeting them with it until the last round made it economically impossible to do so for just this one engine and it's sole remaining application.

It's the SAME constellation of reasons Chrysler previously dropped their even MORE legendary slant six in favor of their anemic and unimpressive V-6's in their other vehicles. It would have cost more to radically re-work the slant six than it was worth to Chrysler.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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What would really be cool in a Jeep would be one of those midsize turbo-diesels.

The one in the BMW 335d puts out less emissions than the 335i and 335is motors, gets better fuel economy, and puts out 265hp and 425tq @ 1700rpm!

That would be insanely good in a Jeep. Hell, even downscale it some for the Wrangler, make a 2.0L variant with ~190hp/300tq @ low rpm. Super sweet.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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What would really be cool in a Jeep would be one of those midsize turbo-diesels.

The one in the BMW 335d puts out less emissions than the 335i and 335is motors, gets better fuel economy, and puts out 265hp and 425tq @ 1700rpm!

That would be insanely good in a Jeep. Hell, even downscale it some for the Wrangler, make a 2.0L variant with ~190hp/300tq @ low rpm. Super sweet.

The cost of diesels that meet US emissions is still high and the amount of weight it adds is non-trivial. They could get a fuel efficient gas motor with the torque curve that comes in low and stays flat by using a 4 cylinder turbo setup, similar to Ford's ecoboost.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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The cost of diesels that meet US emissions is still high and the amount of weight it adds is non-trivial. They could get a fuel efficient gas motor with the torque curve that comes in low and stays flat by using a 4 cylinder turbo setup, similar to Ford's ecoboost.

Yeah, I do think that would be more cost effective, it's just a shame about the lack of a diesel here. I have a buddy from Australia, and he says the diesels are king there. And they're still making new ones :

http://talkingjeepoz.blogspot.com/2011/04/jeep-turbo-diesel-2011-grand-cherokees.html?spref=tw

And on the Jeep site for the current Wrangler over there :

"A diesel engine is also available in Wrangler. The 2.8-litre Common Rail Direct-Injection turbo diesel produces 147 kW at 3,600 rpm and 460 N.m of torque at 1,600 - 2,600 rpm with a 5-speed automatic transmission."
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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It just seems like they could've tweaked it some more or made a new version of it to keep that smooth inline feel. And I'm sure Jeep isn't the only manufacturer to kill reliable engines for seemingly no good reason. Its like the big board members at these companies say, "What? It runs good? Its proving to be reliable? We certainly can't have any of that! Kill it!"

Inline six engines are just not a great choice for a variety of reasons.

1) Packaging. Fitting an inline six into a FWD vehicle is incredibly difficult. When Volvo shoved a 2.9 litre I6 into the S80, they had to develop the world's thinnest transaxle to make it fit within the width of a full-size executive sedan. IIRC the only other company crazy enough to try an I6 in a FWD car was Daewoo (sold in the US as the Suzuki Verona) and they've stuck to very small I6 engines that are handily out-performed by competing 4-cylinder offerings.

Even in RWD vehicles, an inline 6 is still generally the longest engine fitted, necessitating a longer hood or the sacrifice of some interior volume to accommodate the engine. A V6 or even a V8 will make much more efficient use of space within an engine bay, regardless of whether the vehicle is FWD or RWD.

2) Expense. Since packaging pretty much precludes installing an inline six in a passenger car (at least, for mass-market vehicles, luxury marques can absorb the engineering costs and pass those on to consumers and where the prestige makes up for any lost interior room), any manufacturing savings that might come from being able to run an I6 down the same production line as an I4 are essentially thrown out the window. For most companies, an I6 really only makes sense for a truck, and you don't want a truck engine to be based off the same modular design as the 4-cylinder in your company's subcompact.

This essentially means that if you want to have an I6 in your light truck line, you need to have an entire, separate production line dedicated to one engine. That's not good. With a V6, you have more options. Either you can run a 90-degree V6 down a shared production line with your V8 engines or you can have a separate assembly line for 60-degree V6 engines that are middleweights and can fit into your family sedans without packaging concerns as well as into your pickups and manage with being engineered for medium-duty applications.

Basically, I6 engines just don't make economic sense today except in very rare situations. In Volvo's case, expanding their existing I4 and I5 engines into an I6 range and solving the engineering issues was cheaper than building an entirely new line for a V6 engine family. (Volvo's V8 engines are built by Yamaha, so Volvo avoids the cost of a separate assembly line for their V8s.) Also, Volvo only puts the I6 in large cars to begin with. BMW, the only other major user of the I6 engine, sells based on being a "premium" car and they can easily pass the cost of the engine on to consumers; BMW also is widely known for having less interior space, but, again, given their market, that's not a real issue.

Other than situations like those above, it just makes far more economic sense to use a V6. It's cheaper and the engine can be used in far more vehicles in far more situations.

ZV
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
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The best thing about an I6 RWD car is that you can usually replace it with a V8. :p
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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Inline six engines are just not a great choice for a variety of reasons.

1) Packaging. Fitting an inline six into a FWD vehicle is incredibly difficult. When Volvo shoved a 2.9 litre I6 into the S80, they had to develop the world's thinnest transaxle to make it fit within the width of a full-size executive sedan. IIRC the only other company crazy enough to try an I6 in a FWD car was Daewoo (sold in the US as the Suzuki Verona) and they've stuck to very small I6 engines that are handily out-performed by competing 4-cylinder offerings.

Even in RWD vehicles, an inline 6 is still generally the longest engine fitted, necessitating a longer hood or the sacrifice of some interior volume to accommodate the engine. A V6 or even a V8 will make much more efficient use of space within an engine bay, regardless of whether the vehicle is FWD or RWD.

2) Expense. Since packaging pretty much precludes installing an inline six in a passenger car (at least, for mass-market vehicles, luxury marques can absorb the engineering costs and pass those on to consumers and where the prestige makes up for any lost interior room), any manufacturing savings that might come from being able to run an I6 down the same production line as an I4 are essentially thrown out the window. For most companies, an I6 really only makes sense for a truck, and you don't want a truck engine to be based off the same modular design as the 4-cylinder in your company's subcompact.

This essentially means that if you want to have an I6 in your light truck line, you need to have an entire, separate production line dedicated to one engine. That's not good. With a V6, you have more options. Either you can run a 90-degree V6 down a shared production line with your V8 engines or you can have a separate assembly line for 60-degree V6 engines that are middleweights and can fit into your family sedans without packaging concerns as well as into your pickups and manage with being engineered for medium-duty applications.

Basically, I6 engines just don't make economic sense today except in very rare situations. In Volvo's case, expanding their existing I4 and I5 engines into an I6 range and solving the engineering issues was cheaper than building an entirely new line for a V6 engine family. (Volvo's V8 engines are built by Yamaha, so Volvo avoids the cost of a separate assembly line for their V8s.) Also, Volvo only puts the I6 in large cars to begin with. BMW, the only other major user of the I6 engine, sells based on being a "premium" car and they can easily pass the cost of the engine on to consumers; BMW also is widely known for having less interior space, but, again, given their market, that's not a real issue.

Other than situations like those above, it just makes far more economic sense to use a V6. It's cheaper and the engine can be used in far more vehicles in far more situations.

ZV

All of this. Plus the packaging relates to crumple zones. The longer your engine, the shorter your crumple zone.

Also weight distribution. Assuming the rear end of the engines are at the same point, a V6 or V8 has its center of gravity further rearward.



The GM Atlas engines came in I4, I5, and I6. In 2009 the I6 got axed because it was only used on the Trailblazer which ended production. No one even realizes they exist even though they're awesome modern engines with great power output. The 4.2L I6 made 270hp back in 2002. Did you buy a Trailblazer? Nope, only people who don't give a fuck about what the engine is shaped like bought those vehicles. It would have been cool if they used the I6 on the 1500 series trucks... Hmm, how about an I6 or I5 powered Pontiac Solstice? It had a long enough hood.
 
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KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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The best thing about an I6 RWD car is that you can usually replace it with a V8. :p

Indeed. Since I use my Jeep as a tow vehicle and I'm pretty much at max with this setup, I've did some chin rubbing and finger drumming over the idea of putting the 4.7L HO V8 with the 5spd trans in it... I wonder if I would have to swap diffs too....
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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Indeed. Since I use my Jeep as a tow vehicle and I'm pretty much at max with this setup, I've did some chin rubbing and finger drumming over the idea of putting the 4.7L HO V8 with the 5spd trans in it... I wonder if I would have to swap diffs too....

What's your Jeep??