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So, what's up with those weird motion TVs

fustercluck

fustercluck

Diamond Member
I've never heard anyone talk about them. If you've gone to best buy or sams club/costco you'll notice some TVs have really weird motion/picture transition. I think they're 240hz sets? Does anyone actually like those? They've been around for 2-3 years now and they keep making them so I guess they must be selling. Looks too trippy for me. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
 
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Yes, they make movies look like television shows. Seems like when they pan the camera in a movie, the blurriness goes away and the picture becomes very clear. This completely ruins the movie. Almost seems like British television.
 
It's frame interpolation. They are basically putting in extra frames generated by the TV to smooth out the motion. This is a tech that different companies lable as "Auto motion", "Smooth Motion", ect.

It takes away the "movie" feel and gives it more of news camera/soap opera look since it removes the director intended blur.

Thankfully most sets let you turn it off.
 
I'm not sure why they show it off as a feature. At least regulate it to Pixar films and the like, where it does look nice.
 
Good old XKCD.

Alt text:
"We're also stuck with blurry, juddery, slow-panning 24fps movies forever because (thanks to 60fps home video) people associate high framerates with camcorders and cheap sitcoms, and thus think good framerates look "fake"."

This is extremely noticeable in theaters when something moves side to side without good motion blur added - it's like watching Half Life 2 being played on a TNT2 card.


(Incidentally, they had HDTV back in the 50s.)



Edit: Hm, seems we've migrated out of OT here.
 
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Note that TVs that do this can *also*, when you turn the interpolation off, do proper 5:5 (or 10:10) pulldown of film material, so you don't end up with the oddness 3:2 gives you on 60hz sets.
 
I can't stand 24fps.

I think a history growing up playing computer games with higher fps has made me sensitive to this (75Hz or lower refresh rate on CRTs bothered me quite a bit too).

I have frame interpolation set to level 2 on my Panasonic AE4000U and I'm very pleased with the results. I know there are some drawbacks to it and many people are offended by the look of it, but the benefits far outweigh the issues for me personally.
 
you arent going to get good real time interpolation at cheap tv prices.
so you get artifacts and funny looking uber smoothness like that of bad cg of yesteryear.
generally its best to turn it off.

24fps has nothing to do with the gaming refresh, film has motion blur, and 24fps is repeated 3 times per frame in the theater, which is incidentally how some high refresh tv's work, they also flash the backlight to get the same effect.
film works at such low fps because there is no control, you don't need super fine feedback like in gaming for milisecond control. you are in for a ride with someone else doing the driving. additionally its not the same as flickering, since its repeated frame and the tv isn't actually running at 24hz, it doesn't flicker.
 
Do any of the newer (at least I think newer) 600hz TVs do the weird auto/smooth motion? I guess if it's an option you can disable on most TVs then maybe it's not a big deal. I just don't understand why they have so many store displays that do it.
 
"600hz" is a marketing invention and basically total bullshit. Those plasma sets only do 60hz signals.
 
I don't like them . They are creating content that did not exist in the original content. If the movie is 24fps you cannot make it 48fps without creating frames that did not exist. Depending on how good the cpu is doing the work you can get anything from horrible to okay in the results. It is like showing people two pictures 1 second apart and telling them to draw the picture that would go between the two based on what they think it would look like.
 
fustercluck said:
Do any of the newer (at least I think newer) 600hz TVs do the weird auto/smooth motion? I guess if it's an option you can disable on most TVs then maybe it's not a big deal. I just don't understand why they have so many store displays that do it.
Click to expand...

The reason is because of lack of sales. HDTV was the big seller for a few years everyone went out and bought one which was great for the manufacturer at first. Now they have a problem. If we only buy a new tv when the current one fails then the manufacturer could be in trouble.

How do they get all those people who have already bought an hdtv to spend more money ?

Numbers. Consumers shop with the bigger and more is better mindset. 600hz has to be better than 240hz so that must mean I should buy that. It has gone on for decades with everything from cars to food. They have to keep adding something to make people get rid of what they got to get something else.
 
Insomniator said:
that is awesome!!

also so we only think that feature makes movies look cheap because thats how soaps and such look? Hmm...
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There are ridiculous numbers of methods out there for these things. Even just aspect ratios are all over the place. 4:3, 16:9, 16:10, 2.35:1....
But with video, I think there's 23.976fps for film, 29.97 (interlaced) for video, 25fps for PAL video, and who knows what else.
I think with the 23.976fps film video, it's something like 2 progressive (complete) frames, and then two interlaced frames. Your TV manages to pull it off the DVD and mesh it all together so it looks normal. It's just rough when trying to do a DVD rip and have it look good.
(I hear that Star Trek: TNG is especially in that aspect - the live-shot segments are done at 23.976fps film, but the SFX shots are done at 29.97fps interlaced.)


(And I think it actually works out to being 29.97003fps, or something crazy like that. I don't know who the heck comes up with this stuff; I can only hope that there's some kind of sane reason beneath it all.)
 
YOyoYOhowsDAjello said:
I can't stand 24fps.

I think a history growing up playing computer games with higher fps has made me sensitive to this (75Hz or lower refresh rate on CRTs bothered me quite a bit too).

I have frame interpolation set to level 2 on my Panasonic AE4000U and I'm very pleased with the results. I know there are some drawbacks to it and many people are offended by the look of it, but the benefits far outweigh the issues for me personally.
Click to expand...

YOyoYO, I read all your comments and the projectorcentral article, and I find them all very interesting, but they're all dealing with frame interpolation on a projector. Is this somehow different/better than frame interpolation on a TV?

I thought that "Motion Plus" (or whatever the different TVs call the feature) affected the picture of any source and not just 24fps sources. Is that incorrect? Does frame interpolation on your projector only affect 24fps sources?
 
kalrith said:
YOyoYO, I read all your comments and the projectorcentral article, and I find them all very interesting, but they're all dealing with frame interpolation on a projector. Is this somehow different/better than frame interpolation on a TV?

I thought that "Motion Plus" (or whatever the different TVs call the feature) affected the picture of any source and not just 24fps sources. Is that incorrect? Does frame interpolation on your projector only affect 24fps sources?
Click to expand...

The quality of frame interpolation implementations varies quite a bit, even among projectors. The Epson 8500UB and Panasonic AE4000U are the current generation projectors that have had the best frame interpolation systems last time I checked. Some more expensive projectors like JVC's lineup (~$8000?) aren't even as good as these ~$2000 units for this feature.

Both the Epson and the Panasonic have user selectable levels of frame interpolation. If you're interested in this feature, having several steps to choose from would be greatly beneficial. I do get some "soap opera effect" type feeling from the most aggressive frame interpolation setting on the Panasonic.

I haven't looked closely at direct view TVs with these features to compare to my own experience with the projector. Part of the reason it's important to me on a projector is that so much of my field of view is taken up by the screen. Juddering / stuttering motion during panning is much more apparent to me on a large screen than a smaller one.

I suspect there are some good implementations and some bad ones. It seems a very fine line between smoothing the motion and going overboard. If all the TVs are close to "frame creation mode 3" on my Panasonic, I can certainly understand the strong negative feelings toward the technology.

I've used it only with Blu-ray and DVD discs, so my experiences with signal type compatibility are limited.

I know there are people using it for broadcast sports and such though, so they're applying it to HDTV signals too.

I've read some reports of the technology not working where the frame rate is variable (like when a computer is hooked up and the motion of video is not constant, so the projector cannot adequately calculate what to do with the signal). I think it works for all sort of video sources. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but everything I've thrown at it has worked with frame interpolation)
 
fustercluck said:
Do any of the newer (at least I think newer) 600hz TVs do the weird auto/smooth motion? I guess if it's an option you can disable on most TVs then maybe it's not a big deal. I just don't understand why they have so many store displays that do it.
Click to expand...


The 600hz and 840hz plasmas do not really have much to do with motion blur that 240hz is used to accomplish on LCD panels.

The 10 to 14 subframes per frame on the plasma allows them to keep the full resolution of the picture when there's movement.

It's just totally misunderstood by both sides (the people who buy on numbers, and the people who think everything is marketing).
 
I also do not like the 24hz in movies. When I got a 120hz Sony, I did notice some weird effects for about a month, but then I got used to them and don't notice them any more.
 
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