So what's the point of a filibuster?

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Ahh, memories...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_W._Pickering


I do dislike his son and those related to him running for office using The Pickering Name?.

We won't see any honest summary of the issue from you. Democrats filibustered few of Bush's radical nominees, not nearly enough, and Republicans were far, far more obstructionist that Democrats.

I've posted on this at length, showing it in detail from the numbers involed to the qualiitative issues from blackmailing Clinton for planned recesss appointments in advance to repeated blue-slip rule changes.

But all you can post are cherry picked right-wing talking points.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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The Constitution makes no statement as to the filibuster at all, and it is up to the Senate to make its own rules as to what constitutes its 'consent'. Saying that 'the Constitution is pretty clear on that issue' to imply that the Constitution rejects the use of a filibuster on judicial nominees is a complete falsehood. You should know better.

This is old news. The party out of power loves the filibuster and the party in power hates it. Something will probably be done about it sooner or later as the abuse of it is reaching epic proportions, but I'm not really sure what that would be right now. And yes, I imagine the Democrats will return the filibustering favor to the Republicans whenever the R's regain control of the Senate. I fully expect shrieking and crying about the undemocratic nature of the filibuster to resume from the right and cease from the left at that point.

There's truth to that but you really should note, as you posted previously, the very unequal abuse of the filibuster by Republicans when summarizing the issue, not to describe them as equal when they're not.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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This is actually exactly wrong.

Its actually the opposite where it used to take 2/3rds of the Senators to break a filibuster while now it only takes a lower number of only 3/5th of the US Senate to break a filibuster. (In other words, ordinarily 60 Senators while before it actually ordinarily took 67 Senators to break a filibuster.)

The issue is that a filibuster at least was understood for most of the period with the higher number requirement for the US Senate to be something reserved for really extreme circumstances and almost never used, while its become something close to a matter of routine for any relevant bill today.

Very good reply, but his outrageous falsehood about Republicans 'working with Democrats' deserves to be attacked as false, too.

Sadly, Democrats were terribly ineffective at blocking the Republicans or getting many compromises at all while Republicans locked them out of the process.

Hence Republicans got every one of their majori initiatives through except one, the privatization of social security, as I recall. The Republicans are far, far more effectice obstructionists.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Perhaps the Republicans filibuster more because the Democrats have a tendency to go crazy when they take power??

According to the RCP poll average this healthcare plan is opposed by 51% of Americans and only supported by 38%

Sounds like the Republicans are just trying to do the will of the people.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,543
9,767
136
Filibuster use increased pretty hugely even when measuring between years where the same number of votes were required for cloture. There's definitely something more at work there. (polarization in my opinion)

It's a rift between where we're heading and what the people want. You cannot have two sides both supporting growth in centralized government planning when they both want to shape the nation in their own image. It means that every single policy taken is going to anger the other side.

I'd say the conflict in this nation is escalating due to it.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It's a rift between where we're heading and what the people want. You cannot have two sides both supporting growth in centralized government planning when they both want to shape the nation in their own image. It means that every single policy taken is going to anger the other side.

I'd say the conflict in this nation is escalating due to it.
As government grows bigger and more powerful it intrudes more into our lives. As this affects more people, they become political and actually begin paying attention to politics, so rather than having a general preference for one party or another, or one politician or the other, people start looking at actual and proposed laws and spending. Also, both sides are in love with using the power of government to enforce their will on others. I think it's therefore a given that polarization will increase rather than decrease.* At least the Democrats are honest about wanting to increase the size and power of government and its control over our lives - although I still prefer the Republicans, even if the best they do is sporadically reduce the speed of the increase.

* Until the Democrats get their wish and silence Fox News, the Internet, and talk radio. Then there will be only one side, with two parties vying for the privilege of enforcing it. Which will be different from today . . . somehow . . .

EDIT: Not that I disagree with your point, I'm just expanding on it.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,363
1,222
126
Perhaps the Republicans filibuster more because the Democrats have a tendency to go crazy when they take power??

According to the RCP poll average this healthcare plan is opposed by 51% of Americans and only supported by 38%

Sounds like the Republicans are just trying to do the will of the people.

Good thing the government knows what is best for us. Those poor people in Nebraska will soon be better off.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Perhaps the Republicans filibuster more because the Democrats have a tendency to go crazy when they take power??

According to the RCP poll average this healthcare plan is opposed by 51% of Americans and only supported by 38%

Sounds like the Republicans are just trying to do the will of the people.

Nice popaganda - it sounds 'plausible', but of course the facts don't back it up.

The Republicans have been more than happy to pass bad bills in power the public is against, they've been corporate whores far more than the current Democrats as bad as many are that's are behind the corporate sellout provisions in this bill the public has turned against, the Republicans were againast *any* of the strong provisions in the original Obama plan the public supported and elected Obama on.

You can't prove a generality about the obsructionism from one data point, this bill, and even this one point doesn't hold up given the Republicans being against the versions the public was for. Your point falls apart.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Nice popaganda - it sounds 'plausible', but of course the facts don't back it up.

The Republicans have been more than happy to pass bad bills in power the public is against, they've been corporate whores far more than the current Democrats as bad as many are that's are behind the corporate sellout provisions in this bill the public has turned against, the Republicans were againast *any* of the strong provisions in the original Obama plan the public supported and elected Obama on.

You can't prove a generality about the obsructionism from one data point, this bill, and even this one point doesn't hold up given the Republicans being against the versions the public was for. Your point falls apart.

That and the mass anti-reform propoganda campaign many Repubs did to sway public opinion with little fact to back it up. Hell, I pretty much assume the majority of Senators, more repubs than dems, have yet to read the entire bill. Then again, it still boggles my mind that there is no real qualification test used to be a senator. College degree needed? Nope. Minimum IQ? Nope.... just have to be "popular" to rule the land, intelligence is nice but not needed.

I have seen some of the smear ads paid by repubs on the healthcare bill to sway public opinion. Most of these have almost no real relation to the healthcare bill or what it was proposing to do. So using the current public opinion on the issue is a non-entity for this reason as well as the others posted above.

I will state though, I am against the public mandate for must purchase healthcare. I would rather have had the older bill than the current farce. Too bad everything has been "filibustered" :(
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,761
54,783
136
Perhaps the Republicans filibuster more because the Democrats have a tendency to go crazy when they take power??

According to the RCP poll average this healthcare plan is opposed by 51% of Americans and only supported by 38%

Sounds like the Republicans are just trying to do the will of the people.

Yeah, the Republicans filibuster because the other party 'goes crazy'. Come on man, listen to yourself.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
That and the mass anti-reform propoganda campaign many Repubs did to sway public opinion with little fact to back it up. Hell, I pretty much assume the majority of Senators, more repubs than dems, have yet to read the entire bill. Then again, it still boggles my mind that there is no real qualification test used to be a senator. College degree needed? Nope. Minimum IQ? Nope.... just have to be "popular" to rule the land, intelligence is nice but not needed.

I have seen some of the smear ads paid by repubs on the healthcare bill to sway public opinion. Most of these have almost no real relation to the healthcare bill or what it was proposing to do. So using the current public opinion on the issue is a non-entity for this reason as well as the others posted above.

I will state though, I am against the public mandate for must purchase healthcare. I would rather have had the older bill than the current farce. Too bad everything has been "filibustered" :(

What a coincidence. Right before reading our post, I was thinking about the issue of 'qualifications' for our elected political leaders, and how some would wonder, why don't we have them?

We have skills required for doctors, we have merit-based promotiorns somewhat in the military, we haverequirements for all kinds of powerful positions. But not the people on top who set the policies.

The one reason, as far as I'm concerned, is the theoretical idea of democracy - the risk that any test could be turned into a corrupt restriction on the people's power to elect who they want.

As well of course as the difficulty in identifying what specific things you would test for a politician - that's pretty unclear too.

But the thing is, that theoretical notion is lost when the election process is horribly corrupted by another problem, the influence of money and power by the few at the top.

The civiilian leadership who get to order the policies they want to be followed by millions of government employees who have 'earned' their position is empower by the notion the leadership is reflecting 'the will of the people', that as soon as you restrict the leadership's power relative to the organization under them you are restricting the people's power to reign in that same organization. That as soon as the generals can tell the President 'no', they can tell the American people 'no', too. But the terrible election corruption makes a mockery of that notion as the government has to follow the corrupted leadership serving big business.

The tension between bad leaders and able organizations under them can lead people to support less power for the politicians - but to unwittingly throw away the power of the vote in doing that.

This is why we need to clean up our democracy - the money, of course, but also the culture; today, politicians are incented to treat voters like people to 'market to', not as the nation's owners.

Or as I've quoted many times, "Politicians have to LOOK good to voters, and DO good for donors".
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
What a coincidence. Right before reading our post, I was thinking about the issue of 'qualifications' for our elected political leaders, and how some would wonder, why don't we have them?

We have skills required for doctors, we have merit-based promotiorns somewhat in the military, we haverequirements for all kinds of powerful positions. But not the people on top who set the policies.

The one reason, as far as I'm concerned, is the theoretical idea of democracy - the risk that any test could be turned into a corrupt restriction on the people's power to elect who they want.

As well of course as the difficulty in identifying what specific things you would test for a politician - that's pretty unclear too.

But the thing is, that theoretical notion is lost when the election process is horribly corrupted by another problem, the influence of money and power by the few at the top.

The civiilian leadership who get to order the policies they want to be followed by millions of government employees who have 'earned' their position is empower by the notion the leadership is reflecting 'the will of the people', that as soon as you restrict the leadership's power relative to the organization under them you are restricting the people's power to reign in that same organization. That as soon as the generals can tell the President 'no', they can tell the American people 'no', too. But the terrible election corruption makes a mockery of that notion as the government has to follow the corrupted leadership serving big business.

The tension between bad leaders and able organizations under them can lead people to support less power for the politicians - but to unwittingly throw away the power of the vote in doing that.

This is why we need to clean up our democracy - the money, of course, but also the culture; today, politicians are incented to treat voters like people to 'market to', not as the nation's owners.

Or as I've quoted many times, "Politicians have to LOOK good to voters, and DO good for donors".



Nope very simple. Actually have this thought out for requirements to be a politician.

A) Degree from a school in a degree plan the relation to politics such as Political science, business, accounting, law, or a plan that has skills that politicians use. Musical Appreciation degrees are not allowed :)

B) A higher degree for a higher office. Bachelor for state level, and Masters for Federal.

C) Minimum debt. This is a rule enforced for other federal jobs, but not politicians. Debt gives way to blackmailing and bribing.

D) Ethical and moral classes must have been taken as part of their degree plan.

E) No prior criminal felony offense.



These are a minimum I would have on top of what we already have before anyone can be even voted upon for public office. On top of that, these are what I would change to the current political arena.

1) Extend terms. Current terms for most public offices are 2 years. This basically means by the time someone gets elected, they don't have nearly enough time to start to learn and do their job before they have to think about running a campaign to be re-elected. 4 or 6 years should be the term length... but with the following stipulations.

2) Impose a maximum amount of terms on any office. 2 terms works for the president so do the same for all public offices. Either someone moves up, or they move out. No going back down.

3) Performance and peer reports. Every other government, and most private jobs have performance evaluations. Why should elected officials not? Just because they were voted into a job doesn't mean it is not still a job. Make the evaluation a two or even three part system where applicable. A peer review evaluation, a "boss" review, and a public review. Fail all 3 and they are out. Once out of office from an evaluation point of view, they can't come back in.

4) Change how campaigning is done. Institute a time frame that campaigning can be allowed before an election. In the UK, there is a certain time frame politicians can campaign during.

5) Remove individual campaign funds. No donations to a single person. Right now campaigns for US politicians consist of two parts. Fund raising, and spreading their "message" to the public to garner popularity. Remove the fund raising aspect. All campaign funds are "assigned" to potential politicians and are monitored. Anything unused is returned. Donations all go to the same pool and are equally distributed.

6) No personal income allowed to be spent on campaigning. Being very rich shouldn't be a factor in someone getting elected or not.


All the changed I have in mind basically do a few things. One is to make sure politicians that are elected have the basic skills and tools needed to actually do a good job. Also, to make sure they have the reasonable to to focus and do a proper job. Give them incentive to do a good job. Remove legal "bribes" from the system. Allow people to vote for politicians based on the politician, not if they do a book signing or other superfluous crap.



Of course this will never ever pass. It would oust to many corrupt politicians in power. It would bring about a fair and equal change for all. It could possibly "work" and no politician currently in office wants that :(