So what's the deal with Libertarians and the Ayn Rand Institute?

[flavio]

I'm not sure if the two are necessarily linked but I've been having a discussion with a someone who claims to be a full-on 100% Libertarian and he keeps referencing articles at http://www.aynrand.org/ after reaing through some of the articles I have found that I am not only opposed but often offended at most of their central ideas.

The guy I've been having the discussion with would like to do away with health inspections for food and restaraunts, environmental/pollution regulations for businesses, health and safety requirements in the workplace, public roads, and all taxes.

Is this really what Libertarians are all about? Or is this an extremist view that the Ayn Rand Foundation has?

I thought Ayn Rand was just a fiction author, I didn't realize that people had whole belief systems going on with it.

 

[notfred]

My dad thinks Ayn Rand is the greatest author ever, even though he's never read any of her books. He just spends too much time talking to people like the guy you're talking to.

My dad is wierd, though.

 

[flavio]

My dad is weird too.

 

[ElFenix]

i think thats an extremist view. but i'm not a libertarian so i don't know.

 

[notfred]

This type of "pure libertarianism" is like communism in that it works in theory, but it requires people to act against human nature if society is to thrive.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: notfred
This type of "pure libertarianism" is like communism in that it works in theory, but it requires people to act against human nature if society is to thrive.

Aaargh, that's been my whole freaking problem with the ideals. Trust in corporations and individuals to "do the right thing" setting yourself up for huge failures.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: flavio
I'm not sure if the two are necessarily linked but I've been having a discussion with a someone who claims to be a full-on 100% Libertarian and he keeps referencing articles at http://www.aynrand.org/ after reaing through some of the articles I have found that I am not only opposed but often offended at most of their central ideas.

The guy I've been having the discussion with would like to do away with health inspections for food and restaraunts, environmental/pollution regulations for businesses, health and safety requirements in the workplace, public roads, and all taxes.

Is this really what Libertarians are all about? Or is this an extremist view that the Ayn Rand Foundation has?

I thought Ayn Rand was just a fiction author, I didn't realize that people had whole belief systems going on with it.

Definitely an extremist view in regards to health inspections/safety in workplace and environmental regulations. Doing away with public roads and no taxes is about half and half, depends on the Libertarian. A classical Libertarian would do away with taxes and just assign a "budget" for the government.

There's a lot of things I agree with Ayn Rand on, but most of all it's one of her most famous statements, as follows:

The primary requisite for the creation of wealth is freedom.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[notfred]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: notfred
This type of "pure libertarianism" is like communism in that it works in theory, but it requires people to act against human nature if society is to thrive.

Aaargh, that's been my whole freaking problem with the ideals. Trust in corporations and individuals to "do the right thing" setting yourself up for huge failures.

Yeah, if people were capable of functioning in these idealistic societies where everyone has to consider the welfare of others all the time, we wouldn't need a government. We could live in anarchy and get along jsut fine.

Thing is, people are selfish.

 

[numark]

There's a wide range of libertarian views, and that's certainly not the most prevalent one. Most libertarians (including myself) believe in more of the laissez-faire system with some exceptions to protect the basic health and safety of the citizens. The Ayn Rand Foundation never has and never will be indicative of the libertarian views.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: notfred
This type of "pure libertarianism" is like communism in that it works in theory, but it requires people to act against human nature if society is to thrive.

Aaargh, that's been my whole freaking problem with the ideals. Trust in corporations and individuals to "do the right thing" setting yourself up for huge failures.

Both communism and pure libertarianism require humans to perform actions which are counter-intuitive to them. I don't believe a society can survive and thrive when power is tipped in favor of either the government or the citizenry. Government is put in place to protect the interests of the citizenry and it is the citizenry who keeps the government in check. Unfortunately, I think the citizenry needs to check the government hard into the boards and get them to tighten up their purse strings. The power is being tipped towards the governments side now IMHO because of their outrageous spending.

There is an excellent op-ed piece today from Georgia Democrat Zell Miller on this very subject.
Link

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: numark
There's a wide range of libertarian views, and that's certainly not the most prevalent one. Most libertarians (including myself) believe in more of the laissez-faire system with some exceptions to protect the basic health and safety of the citizens. The Ayn Rand Foundation never has and never will be indicative of the libertarian views.

Well that's good to hear.

 

[Bulk Beef]

I predict that Amused will be posting in this thread in the near future.

 

[skace]

I think I read something from Ayn Rand. I recall some guy running off into the woods with his woman so they can live in equality. It was all very happy. I don't have a clue what it has to do with anything modern day, as the world in the book was completely different.

 

[StageLeft]

People so in to ayn rand scare me.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
People so in to ayn rand scare me.

LOL...any kind of zealot scares me. It is fine to have lofty ideals and really be into this one thing and all but a healthy dose of reality is nice too.

 

[Amused]

The guy I've been having the discussion with would like to do away with health inspections for food and restaraunts, environmental/pollution regulations for businesses, health and safety requirements in the workplace, public roads, and all taxes.

It's amazing, but we survived without government controlling these things for over a century. Now, I'm not as strict a libertarian as your friend, but if anyone here owns a business, they know how ridiculous government regulations have become.

And no, Ayn Rand was not just a fiction writer. She was a philosopher who grew up under and knew first hand the failings of socialism, communism, and totalitarianism (the early USSR).

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: sward666
I predict that Amused will be posting in this thread in the near future.

You need to get your own 900 number.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: sward666
I predict that Amused will be posting in this thread in the near future.

You need to get your own 900 number.

no, that would only apply if he was wrong... so he could fit in with all the other operators

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Amused

The guy I've been having the discussion with would like to do away with health inspections for food and restaraunts, environmental/pollution regulations for businesses, health and safety requirements in the workplace, public roads, and all taxes.

It's amazing, but we survived without government controlling these things for over a century. Now, I'm not as strict a libertarian as your friend, but if anyone here owns a business, they know how ridiculous government regulations have become.

So would you be for getting rid of all health, safety, and pollution regulations? ....Public roads?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Amused

The guy I've been having the discussion with would like to do away with health inspections for food and restaraunts, environmental/pollution regulations for businesses, health and safety requirements in the workplace, public roads, and all taxes.

It's amazing, but we survived without government controlling these things for over a century. Now, I'm not as strict a libertarian as your friend, but if anyone here owns a business, they know how ridiculous government regulations have become.

So would you be for getting rid of all health, safety, and pollution regulations? ....Public roads?

Reread what I said. If you can't guess the answer to your question from that... well I'm very sorry.

 

[Corn]

It's amazing, but we survived without government controlling these things for over a century.

That's not really a valid argument, Amused. Our economy relies heavily on interstate commerce. A century ago interstate commerce didn't exist. Roads did not exist (on the scale they do now). Unless you lived in an urban city, you raised your own food. Prior to child labor laws, an inordinante amount of children suffered in sweatshops.

While the first century of our country may seem somewhat a romantic fantasy for you, I, and most Americans, would rather have to live with the "burden" of roads, airports, reasonable work safety....(well I think you're starting to get the idea), than have to live with the alternative.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Amused
Reread what I said. If you can't guess the answer to your question from that... well I'm very sorry.

I read it ok the first time. You say government regulations have become ridiculous. Does that mean you would like to see them scaled back a little or removed entirely? ...that doesn't even give me a clue about the public roads.

So there's quite a bit of room for error in me guessing the answers.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Corn

It's amazing, but we survived without government controlling these things for over a century.

That's not really a valid argument, Amused. Our economy relies heavily on interstate commerce. A century ago interstate commerce didn't exist. Roads did not exist (on the scale they do now). Unless you lived in an urban city, you raised your own food. Prior to child labor laws, an inordinante amount of children suffered in sweatshops.

While the first century of our country may seem somewhat a romantic fantasy for you, I, and most Americans, would rather have to live with the "burden" of roads, airports, reasonable work safety....(well I think you're starting to get the idea), than have to live with the alternative.

Yours is not a valid argument either. You give no evidence that privately built and maintained infrastructure could not do the job as well, if not better.

And our country's interstate commerce did just fine before the federal interstate system.

And if you think OSHA rules are "reasonable," you must not know much about it.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Amused
Reread what I said. If you can't guess the answer to your question from that... well I'm very sorry.

I read it ok the first time. You say government regulations have become ridiculous. Does that mean you would like to see them scaled back a little or removed entirely? ...that doesn't even give me a clue about the public roads.

So there's quite a bit of room for error in me guessing the answers.

I'd answer that question on a case by case basis to give a better idea of what I mean. What it obviously does not mean is that I'd like to end all control, and that was the point of my reply to you.

But on the whole, I'd like to see federal control of most things scaled back considerably.

As for public roads, I'd like to see most, if not all privatized.

 

[Corn]

So there's quite a bit of room for error in me guessing the answers.

Yes, of course there was, enough to not actually be certain of fielding an accurate guess either. I don't blame you.

Are some "regulations" burdensome? Sure. To satisfy a certain argument, one must find an answer to the general questions of "if regulations/mandates were not necessary, how did they come into being to begin with?"

Evidently it wasn't enough that the meat producers (as an example) police themselves, or their reputations ruled their ethics, as even today (with todays overburdensome regulations) this industry is plagued by listeria and ecoli recalls.