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So... What if China's Wuhan Institute of Virology did leak covid-19?

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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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So I guess Jon Stewart is now some conspiracy theorist?




the above video is a medical doctor's new consideration on the question and he does react to Jon Stewarts rant.



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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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Now I'm wondering what intelligence briefing(s) may have brought about this apparent change in opinion amongst White House personnel

according to CNN a few days ago "Senior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory as credible as natural origins explanation"

it really doesn't change my opinion that if the lab leak hypothesis is born out though.

Lab Safety procedures would need to be reviewed and improved if possible. people who advocate for Gain of Function research may be less credible though in the eyes of the public.


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abj13

Senior member
Jan 27, 2005
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Now I'm wondering what intelligence briefing(s) may have brought about this apparent change in opinion amongst White House personnel
I think a major part of the evolution is how the origins discussion has been framed and how terms have been used. Perhaps the most important initial papers about the origins of the virus was published back in March 2020. They discussed all possibilities including animal to human transmission, inadvertent release from a lab, and direct genetic manipulation of the virus. So all of this has been on the table from the start. However, the previous administration was deadset on using the origins of SARS-CoV-2 as political retribution, and were formulating conclusions not based on actual evidence, but innuendo, and were pressuring intelligence agencies to find a connection. However, the intelligence community held as far back as April 2020 that both natural origins and a lab leak theory were possible, but there was no evidence the virus was engineered.

The problem with all of this, when people say "lab leak" they often conflate an accidental escape of the virus as also meaning the virus was engineered in the lab. They are really two different scenarios. As I've described in this thread, the idea that the virus was engineered in the lab doesn't hold up to scientific or logical scrutiny, but the accidental release idea remains possible for the simple reason there's no major evidence for and against it.

The fact that the current administration finds the lab leak theory as credible as the natural origins is most likely explained by the fact that there isn't "smoking gun" evidence for either theory at this point in time (as opposed to sudden discovery of evidence for a lab leak). Scientists haven't discovered a closely related coronavirus in animals yet, nor has anyone identified evidence that SARS-CoV-2 was sitting in the Wuhan lab in a sample.

Lab Safety procedures would need to be reviewed and improved if possible. people who advocate for Gain of Function research may be less credible though in the eyes of the public.
Gain of function research isn't a prerequisite for the lab leak theory though.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,126
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Now I'm wondering what intelligence briefing(s) may have brought about this apparent change in opinion amongst White House personnel

according to CNN a few days ago "Senior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory as credible as natural origins explanation"

it really doesn't change my opinion that if the lab leak hypothesis is born out though.

Lab Safety procedures would need to be reviewed and improved if possible. people who advocate for Gain of Function research may be less credible though in the eyes of the public.


_______________
There's as much evidence in support of the lab leak theory as there is for the stolen election theory, which is to say none at all. It's just part of flooding the zone & dangling conspiracy theory. Throwing in the gain of function bullshit blaming is a nice touch.
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
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I think a major part of the evolution is how the origins discussion has been framed and how terms have been used. Perhaps the most important initial papers about the origins of the virus was published back in March 2020. They discussed all possibilities including animal to human transmission, inadvertent release from a lab, and direct genetic manipulation of the virus. So all of this has been on the table from the start. However, the previous administration was deadset on using the origins of SARS-CoV-2 as political retribution, and were formulating conclusions not based on actual evidence, but innuendo, and were pressuring intelligence agencies to find a connection. However, the intelligence community held as far back as April 2020 that both natural origins and a lab leak theory were possible, but there was no evidence the virus was engineered.

The problem with all of this, when people say "lab leak" they often conflate an accidental escape of the virus as also meaning the virus was engineered in the lab. They are really two different scenarios. As I've described in this thread, the idea that the virus was engineered in the lab doesn't hold up to scientific or logical scrutiny, but the accidental release idea remains possible for the simple reason there's no major evidence for and against it.

The fact that the current administration finds the lab leak theory as credible as the natural origins is most likely explained by the fact that there isn't "smoking gun" evidence for either theory at this point in time (as opposed to sudden discovery of evidence for a lab leak). Scientists haven't discovered a closely related coronavirus in animals yet, nor has anyone identified evidence that SARS-CoV-2 was sitting in the Wuhan lab in a sample.



Gain of function research isn't a prerequisite for the lab leak theory though.
Please. the lab leak theory is a Trumpian attack against the integrity & competence of the Wuhan lab supported purely by conjecture & well cultivated antipathy to China in general. If there are people in the current admin buying into the bullshit, then shame on them.
 

rommelrommel

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 2002
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There's as much evidence in support of the lab leak theory as there is for the stolen election theory, which is to say none at all. It's just part of flooding the zone & dangling conspiracy theory. Throwing in the gain of function bullshit blaming is a nice touch.
None at all? There’s no chance a sample escaped from a coronavirus research lab?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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There is absolutely no evidence that it did. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It's an excellent conspiracy theory that seems to be a big seller.
IIRC the head of the program at the Wuhan lab went mysteriously missing something like Dec. 2019, her photo also mysteriously missing from lab documentation. Something like 2 or 3 lab workers associated with the program became ill with symptoms not dissimilar to covid-19 at that time. I don't call these things "absolutely no evidence." And the Chinese have not been forthcoming in response to inquiries concerning these and other related information.
 
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blankslate

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In past pandemics involving a species jump the originating animal has been found as I recall and fairly quickly (correct me if I am mistaken).

However, I surmise that the Lab Leak Hypothesis is given credence now because apparently no source animal for the current pandemic seems to have been found yet.


That’s a reasonable theory: other bat coronaviruses have jumped to humans the same way. In fact, it was the origin of SARS, a similar coronavirus that panicked the world in 2003 when it spread out of southern China and sickened 8,000 people. With SARS, researchers tested caged market animals and quickly found a nearly identical virus in Himalayan palm civet cats and raccoon dogs, which are also eaten locally.

This time, though, the intermediate-host hypothesis has one big problem. More than a year after covid-19 began, no food animal has been identified as a reservoir for the pandemic virus. That’s despite efforts by China to test tens of thousands of animals, including pigs, goats, and geese, according to Liang Wannian, who leads the Chinese side of the research team. No one has found a “direct progenitor” of the virus, he says, and therefore the pandemic “remains an unsolved mystery.”

again perhaps that will have changed or has changed the above caveat applies of course as well.

but.... from the article via MIT Technology Review

Politics at play
It’s important to know how the pandemic started, because after killing more than 2.5 million people and causing trillions of dollars in economic losses, it’s not over. The virus may well be establishing itself in new species, like wild rabbits or even house pets. Learning how the pandemic began could help health experts avert the next one, or at least react more swiftly.

We know that the payoffs of origin hunting are real. After the 2003 SARS outbreak, researchers started building up a big knowledge base about this type of virus. That knowledge is what turbocharged the development process for vaccines against the new coronavirus in early 2020. One Chinese company, Sinovac Biotech, actually dusted off a 16-year-old vaccine design it had shelved after the SARS outbreak was contained.

*snip*

What’s certain is that the research to find the pandemic’s cause is politically charged because of the way it could assign blame for the global disaster. Since last spring, the hunt for the origin of what former president Donald Trump called the “China virus” has been in the crossfire of US-China trade battles and American charges that the WHO has played patsy for Beijing. China, meanwhile, has sought opportunities to spread responsibility.




look allowing for the possibility of this hypothesis doesn't mean that you think Trump is right and China released a virus purposefully. Yet it seems in some peoples' minds that it does. Trump is gone and has been gone from the WH for about 1/2 a year now FFS.

who knows maybe the recent open attitude of White House staffers to the Lab Leak Hypothesis only means that Trump has succeeded in mind controlling them... :eek:



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*edited to add first quote in above text*
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,280
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There was no question from the start - but it was constantly trying to be suppressed by our shit media - including social media and calling it misinformation.

Only after the former CDC director came out and basically reminded everyone... No... you're retarded, it's absolutely a plausible theory - in fact it's the theory I'm most likely to believe... Did people finally ATTEMPT to pull their heads out of their asses.

 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
16,369
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There's as much evidence in support of the lab leak theory as there is for the stolen election theory, which is to say none at all. It's just part of flooding the zone & dangling conspiracy theory. Throwing in the gain of function bullshit blaming is a nice touch.
Is someone gonna break down your door, nail you to a chair and start clipping your fingers off if you as much as hints at something china bad?
No evidence. How about the fact that one of the only labs in existence doing research on juuuust that kinda strain kinda virus IS RIGHT THERE at the epicenter where it all began?
Its like being run over by the only car in existence but you didnt catch the plate. NO EVIDENCE.
You are highly irrational on this.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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There was no question from the start - but it was constantly trying to be suppressed by our shit media - including social media and calling it misinformation.

Only after the former CDC director came out and basically reminded everyone... No... you're retarded, it's absolutely a plausible theory - in fact it's the theory I'm most likely to believe... Did people finally ATTEMPT to pull their heads out of their asses.

Well. Do you have PROOF? No? That never stopped no one from hanging a few folk... am i rite?
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
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There was no question from the start - but it was constantly trying to be suppressed by our shit media - including social media and calling it misinformation.

Only after the former CDC director came out and basically reminded everyone... No... you're retarded, it's absolutely a plausible theory - in fact it's the theory I'm most likely to believe... Did people finally ATTEMPT to pull their heads out of their asses.

Jumping to conclusions & sticking to his guns. No wonder our initial response to the pandemic was fucked up.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,126
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IIRC the head of the program at the Wuhan lab went mysteriously missing something like Dec. 2019, her photo also mysteriously missing from lab documentation. Something like 2 or 3 lab workers associated with the program became will with symptoms not dissimilar with covid-19 at that time. I don't call these things "absolutely no evidence."
That's merely fodder for accusatory conjecture presented as mystery, conspiracy theory 101. It's distraction from the miserable leadership of Trump & his sycophants throughout this unfortunate adventure.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
30,555
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who knows maybe the recent open attitude of White House staffers to the Lab Leak Hypothesis only means that Trump has succeeded in mind controlling them... :eek:
Even a broken clock is right 2x/day. So Trump may have been right 0.1% of the time before being kicked out of office.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
30,555
3,726
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That's merely fodder for accusatory conjecture presented as mystery, conspiracy theory 101. It's distraction from the miserable leadership of Trump & his sycophants throughout this unfortunate adventure.
It doesn't distract me in the slightest. The previous administration's shortcomings in dealing with the burgeoning pandemic irritated me more than anything in 2020. What gave rise to the pandemic is beside the point. The response to the pandemic was EVERYTHING. Trump and his ever rotating hideous ensemble of hacks and criminals fumbled the response on a continual basis.
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
2,236
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Is someone gonna break down your door, nail you to a chair and start clipping your fingers off if you as much as hints at something china bad?
No evidence. How about the fact that one of the only labs in existence doing research on juuuust that kinda strain kinda virus IS RIGHT THERE at the epicenter where it all began?
Its like being run over by the only car in existence but you didnt catch the plate. NO EVIDENCE.
You are highly irrational on this.
That is circumstantial though: co-existance doesn't prove cause and effect. By the same reasoning, a coronavirus lab would most likely be located where the viruses are most prevalent, and thus a high chance of jumping from an animal species to human. My personal take is that we dont really know the origin and probably never will.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
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So I have a question and it may seem kinda dumb but keep in mind it is an honest one.

Is there any more evidence that this originated in a food market in China versus the evidence that this originated from a virology lab in China?
 

rommelrommel

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 2002
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There is absolutely no evidence that it did. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It's an excellent conspiracy theory that seems to be a big seller.
We moved pretty quick from impossible to can’t prove it here.

I definitely don’t know that it was a lab leak but to dismiss the possibility because it can’t be proven is ridiculous. There’s no proof of where it came from yet either, so the best answer is that we don’t know.

It’s certainly not impossible that a sample taken at some point in the past was accidentally leaked from the lab.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
23,466
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So I have a question and it may seem kinda dumb but keep in mind it is an honest one.

Is there any more evidence that this originated in a food market in China versus the evidence that this originated from a virology lab in China?
There's circumstantial evidence for both (either?). To say that "it's clear" or even that there's "strong evidence" that it's a lab leak is intellectually dishonest. It certainly may have been (an unintentional leak, and personally I do think it would be important to know for sure), but we definitely do not have strong evidence that it was.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
23,466
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We moved pretty quick from impossible to can’t prove it here.

I definitely don’t know that it was a lab leak but to dismiss the possibility because it can’t be proven is ridiculous. There’s no proof of where it came from yet either, so the best answer is that we don’t know.

It’s certainly not impossible that a sample taken at some point in the past was accidentally leaked from the lab.
How is he being dismissive by asking for proof?

Ovee several years (decades) a particular group loves to use the "just asking questions!" mantra disingenuously to spread misinformation.

Anyone can theorize anything, but there isn't much value in having any significant discussion if the person offering a theory does not also add evidence. Otherwise it's just a discussion of opinions.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
16,369
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That is circumstantial though: co-existance doesn't prove cause and effect. By the same reasoning, a coronavirus lab would most likely be located where the viruses are most prevalent, and thus a high chance of jumping from an animal species to human. My personal take is that we dont really know the origin and probably never will.
100% true that. Well 99% as my mind went to the same place as yours, we have an expert in this field on here and reasoning of putting the lab close to the samples in the wild is invalid.. Ill try and dig it up, it was a lengthy convo.
My objection is that to assign a 0%. chance in the face of those circumstances, like jhnnn does, is… weird.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
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There's circumstantial evidence for both (either?). To say that "it's clear" or even that there's "strong evidence" that it's a lab leak is intellectually dishonest. It certainly may have been (an unintentional leak, and personally I do think it would be important to know for sure), but we definitely do not have strong evidence that it was.
There's also 0% evidence it came from a wild source. Need to bear that in mind when we talk about what's 'clear' or 'impossible'. Else you may as well say 'it came from an alien visitor' since there's just as much evidence of that as there is that it was either a lab leak or a natural mutation.

If we're going to leave out irrational theories, we should probably keep all rational theories on the table. A lab leak of a coronavirus within a mile of a coronavirus lab should remain on the table until it's properly excluded.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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So I have a question and it may seem kinda dumb but keep in mind it is an honest one.

Is there any more evidence that this originated in a food market in China versus the evidence that this originated from a virology lab in China?
I think the answer to that is absolutely no. There's zero evidence that it originated in that wet market. Personally, I think the lab leak is the likeliest scenario. Likely the origin is bats. Did they alter the virus in the lab? That we may never know.
 

Chaspowr3

Junior Member
May 19, 2021
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But what are the actions that can be taken, if any, is the question. The realm of International relations and International law is so fragile and thin. It is either muddled in deeper strategic thoughts or some reckless action that perpetrates chaos. Either way, I don't see China ever accepting the claim. If it accepts, imagine the loss of lives and livelihood it has to owe up to. On the other side, I don't think anything can be coerced on them. China is too strong a force to be bullied through International agencies or through direct confrontation - that could only blow up the situation.
 

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