Discussion So what happen to 10mm and .41 AE?

[whm1974]

So two firearm cartridges I had a long interest in since I heard about them during the late 80's are the 10mm and .41 AE. The 10mm was adopted by the FBI after the 1986 Miami after they reach the conclusion that they needed a more powerful Pistol, which saved the cartridge from extinction and later lead to the .40 S&W. The .41 AE was intended as an upgrade to 9mm Luger weapons by using a rebated rim the same size as the 9mm. Which only required changing a few parts. It had around the same performance level of the .40 S&W.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Action_Express
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S&W

As far as I know, the .41 AE is no longer manufactured but the brass is still produced for reloaders.

 

[JulesMaximus]

What does a 50rd box of 10mm cost these days? I have a couple .44 magnum revolvers and ammo for them is around $50/box. Oddly, .44 special isn't any cheaper either although I still prefer to shoot it to the full power loads just because of the punishing recoil of .44 magnum loads.

 

[whm1974]

What does a 50rd box of 10mm cost these days? I have a couple .44 magnum revolvers and ammo for them is around $50/box. Oddly, .44 special isn't any cheaper either although I still prefer to shoot it to the full power loads just because of the punishing recoil of .44 magnum loads.

Well I wouldn't know as I no longer have an IL FOID card and since I live in HUD housing not allowed to have firearms here, so...

I shot a .357 Redhawk a few times back in my early teens and although it was lighter loads the recoil felt quite a bit stiffer then the .38 Special I was used to. And Redhawks are heavy revolvers.

 

[shortylickens]

some people use 10mm but its not very popular.

I dont know anyone who has ever used or seen 41 AE.
I'll ask around next time I hit up the gun store.

Oh, and theres a really excellent medical report by Dr. Martin Fackler (I think) that explains bullet damage in detail but I cant find it and link it on a work computer. They dont even let me visit outdoor enthusiast websites.


Yeah, its him.

Martin Fackler - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Go read up on wound balistics, its cool stuff.
For example, 5.56mm isnt nearly as effective as reported to be.

 

[whm1974]

some people use 10mm but its not very popular.

I dont know anyone who has ever used or seen 41 AE.
I'll ask around next time I hit up the gun store.

Oh, and theres a really excellent medical report by Dr. Martin Fackler (I think) that explains bullet damage in detail but I cant find it and link it on a work computer. They dont even let me visit outdoor enthusiast websites.


Yeah, its him.

Martin Fackler - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Go read up on wound balistics, its cool stuff.
For example, 5.56mm isnt nearly as effective as reported to be.

How come we don't see any gas-operating pistols like the Desert Eagle chambered in 10mm?

 

[Skel]

How come we don't see any gas-operating pistols like the Desert Eagle chambered in 10mm?

Because most guns work without having to add more crap to them, and pistols are more compact.. why gas?

 

[glenn1]

.40 S&W has overtaken 10mm for some time. Shorter cartridge length and improved loading due to the down-necking fitting into the loading ramp better IIRC.

 

[shortylickens]

Well I wouldn't know as I no longer have an IL FOID card and since I live in HUD housing not allowed to have firearms here, so...

I shot a .357 Redhawk a few times back in my early teens and although it was lighter loads the recoil felt quite a bit stiffer then the .38 Special I was used to. And Redhawks are heavy revolvers.

Weight is nice but design is more important.
My P230 Stainless weighs considerbly more than the Glock 42, but the Glock 42 has much lighter recoil thanks to a wonderful modern design.
Each shot is easier and a long day at the range is more pleasant and less abusive.
This is important if you think you are going to carry. You should not carry any weapon until you've had plenty of professional training with it and that means several long days at the range where you may shoot up to 800 rounds. You'll learn quickly which guns are ideal for every day carry and which guns are only good for limited target shooting.

 

[whm1974]

Because most guns work without having to add more crap to them, and pistols are more compact.. why gas?

Because a Full House 10mm load is almost .41 Mag level performance and gas reduces the recoil bu a great amount.

 

[Jerem]

How come we don't see any gas-operating pistols like the Desert Eagle chambered in 10mm?

Glock sold a fukton of 10mm semi autos

 

[Skel]

Because a Full House 10mm load is almost .41 Mag level performance and gas reduces the recoil bu a great amount.

Fair enough... It also adds a lot more things that could cause issues so I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze. I'm not sure what the benefit to the round would be to justify the extra crap to run gas in a pistol.

Glock sold a fukton of 10mm semi autos

Glock is a short recoil action.. not gas..

 

[Jerem]

Fair enough... It also adds a lot more things that could cause issues so I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze. I'm not sure what the benefit to the round would be to justify the extra crap to run gas in a pistol.



Glock is a short recoil action.. not gas..

Yeah, it's blowback. What does this guy want...an AR pistol in 10mm?

 

[Skel]

Yeah, it's blowback. What does this guy want...an AR pistol in 10mm?

Gas operating.. which I might be wrongly thinking is like the AR.. but I'm pretty sure that it.

 

[whm1974]

Yeah, it's blowback. What does this guy want...an AR pistol in 10mm?

The Desert Eagle is a gas operating pistol and it doesn't look anything like an AR pistol.

 

[DigDog]

As i (a EURO) understand it, 9mm improved so over the years much that 10mm became redundant. And 10mm never got rid of the extra bit of recoil either.

 

[whm1974]

As i (a EURO) understand it, 9mm improved so over the years much that 10mm became redundant. And 10mm never got rid of the extra bit of recoil either.

The 10mm with full loads is still quite a bit more powerful then 9mm+P loads.

 

[Skel]

As i (a EURO) understand it, 9mm improved so over the years much that 10mm became redundant. And 10mm never got rid of the extra bit of recoil either.

10mm was going to replace 9mm in LEO but the recoil caused issues, or so the legend goes.. The 40 was introduced fix those issues claiming to be the best of both 9mm and 45.. to me it's the worst of both YMMV

 

[DigDog]

The 10mm with full loads is still quite a bit more powerful then 9mm+P loads.

yeah but that's the point. it's "more powerful" (i.e. harder to control in defense/combat situations) but not enough to bring any real advantage, like a 357 or 44 would.

 

[Skel]

yeah but that's the point. it's "more powerful" (i.e. harder to control in defense/combat situations) but not enough to bring any real advantage, like a 357 or 44 would.

That's where I'm at too.. I just can't see it being worth all the extra crap I'd have to do to get gas in 10mm.. I'm not sure I even see the point in 10mm, but I only owned a 10mm gun for a short time. Got rid of it as I just didn't see the point in it past my hoarder issues.

 

[Luna1968]

or example, 5.56mm isnt nearly as effective as reported to be.

after Mogadishu our ammo was changed out from the Vietnam era 55 grain to 62 grain.

we had gobs of ammo to burn up at the range. lol imagine 45 people lined up with several 30 round mags loaded with all tracers at night. when the range officer said fire. it was epic star wars shit.

 

[Paladin3]

9mm and .40 are far easier to shoot well compared to powerhouses like 10mm or .41AE. And since shot placement is far more important the raw power, carrying a hard to shoot caliber is more of a detriment.

If more firepower is called for, switch to a shotgun or a rifle. A handguns only real benefit is that it is small and portable. It's not a replacement for a long gun, and LE has finally figured that out, as has the shooting public in general.

What the 10mm round does quite well is make for a nice hunting handgun in a 1911 style pistol if you have good shot placement.

 

[whm1974]

9mm and .40 are far easier to shoot well compared to powerhouses like 10mm or .41AE. And since shot placement is far more important the raw power, carrying a hard to shoot caliber is more of a detriment.

If more firepower is called for, switch to a shotgun or a rifle. A handguns only real benefit is that it is small and portable. It's not a replacement for a long gun, and LE has finally figured that out, as has the shooting public in general.

What the 10mm round does quite well is make for a nice hunting handgun in a 1911 style pistol if you have good shot placement.

To be honest I found the recoil from a .40 S&W handgun to be a bit sharper then the .45 ACP Hi-Point I used to owned. I felt quite comfortable shooting the .45 but the .40, not so much. Granted the HP I had was noticeable heavier then the S&W I borrowed from the range, but still.

What gets me is the FBI decision to adopt a handgun cartridge that is actually more suited to hunting deer and a decent defense against bears then most Law Enforcement use cases. And you are right, shot placement is key and not power. Also of course bullet design as well.

 

[clamum]

I'm not sure I've ever heard of .41 AE but I think 10mm is reasonably popular with shooters. It's not on par with 9mm or even .40 S&W but it's around.

It sure is (popular) with gun guys on YouTube; there's tons of videos of guys praising it. I have zero uses for it personally; I'd think it could be useful for hunters, otherwise, why? It just seems like so many people like it because it's POWERFUL and I guess they feel manly after shooting it. Not for me. 9mm or 5.56 or .22LR punches holes through paper just fine for me. Whatevs, to each his own.

 

[glenn1]

To be honest I found the recoil from a .40 S&W handgun to be a bit sharper then the .45 ACP Hi-Point I used to owned. I felt quite comfortable shooting the .45 but the .40, not so much. Granted the HP I had was noticeable heavier then the S&W I borrowed from the range, but still.

What gets me is the FBI decision to adopt a handgun cartridge that is actually more suited to hunting deer and a decent defense against bears then most Law Enforcement use cases. And you are right, shot placement is key and not power. Also of course bullet design as well.

.40 S&W tends to be done in a midsize frame pistol whereas most .45 ACP are full size. I've fired the .40 S&W in a Sig P228 before and didn't think it was too bad but each person is different.

 

[gill77]

All handguns are under-powered.

Find what works for you, train, make the hit.