So what alternatives are to x86? A bit of OpenPOWER...

zir_blazer

Golden Member
Jun 6, 2013
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With AMD becoming even more irrelevant with every product paperlaunch plus all the previous flops that they already accumulated in the last half decade, is probable that in less that two years we will see two possible outcomes: AMD could go bankrupt and dissapear along with their x86 license, or maybe there could be a meteor shower of miracles and Zen becomes a success that allows them to somehow recover and become competitive. But these days I'm not that optimist, and would prepare for the worst.
The main problem is that we already are getting an early taste of what would happen if Intel becomes an absolute monopoly with no competition (Through what AMD provides currently can't be called that...). They don't bother to compete with themselves, just milking the cash cow with market segmentation. Intel decided for the Skylake generation to not allow using Xeons E3 on Desktop Motherboards as Core i5/i7 replacements (Which could have put a cap on the Core i7 6700K price gouging), and we also saw in the last days that Intel has the last word over what features Motherboard makers may enable, as it seems that Intel was able to force them to kill Base Clock overclock on non-K Processor and/or non-Z Chipsets.
So at this point, I'm rather interesing in how viable is actually jumping out of x86 before it becomes too late and we all do Intel bidding...


The problem is that you used to only have architecture variety on big Servers and mainframes (Anyone remembers the DEC Alpha?), which obviously no one has the budget for. The alternative closer to mainstream and reasonable budgets is ARM, but these aren't your traditional do it yourself Desktop system and you usually see it in devices like Tablets.
When the AMD Opteron A1100 was announced, I was very interesed in it since what it could achieve was providing a Desktop PC-like approach to a non-x86 architecture, so I could do something like, purchase a standard ATX Case and Power Supply, DDR3 RAM, a SATA SSD, and a Motherboard with the AMD Seattle SoC, then I would be able to assemble an ARM system whose look and feel is much closer to a traditional Desktop, if not identical, than an ARM Tablet or other consumer gadget using their CPU ISA.
So far, this idea didn't seem to go anywhere since as far that I know, there are still no Opteron A1100 benchmarks, nor you can purchase it.


Today we have a new contender. Phoronix announced that there is a small business interesed in building systems around OpenPOWER. The guys that are in that project have experience with some ports of Coreboot, including to at least one AMD Server Motherboard. I don't know who commisioned the port, but they are the only small business that I'm aware of that does jobs like those.
Obviously that the main advantage is that you can step out of x86 with it, so you don't have to bow to Intel. You also have an Open Source Firmware. I think that even the Hardware side is Open Source, as IBM with the OpenPOWER iniciative is actually providing for the POWER8 Processor schematics, but I'm not entirely sure if an end user can get them (Sun with OpenSPARC did so if I recall correctly).
As we know, BIOSes are full of obscurity, and the maintenance via updates is done by the Motherboard maker for as long as they want to do so, and to fix or break whatever they care about. Product is EOL? Sorry, you're screwed (Unless you happen to have one of the very few Motherboards supported by Coreboot). There are too many things that we don't have control of in the x86 platform, and we're losing ground every generation. So, enter OpenPOWER, a possible exit to the x86 platform assuming that ARM isn't viable enough to do it.
There is an issue: The announced 3100 U$D price tag, and that's assuming there are enough interesed people to make a production run of the prototype system. Freedom is not for people in a budget, so I don't think that you will see anyone replacing his everyday system with one of these (And forget about Windows, or nearly all games for that matter...). But is extremely interesing to see that at least x86 alternatives that could eventually become mainstream, assuming that price somehow becomes acceptable.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Unlikely. Remember how Intel tried to replace x86 with Itanium? Didn't work out very well. I don't see OpenPower being any different. There's too much software on x86 that people want to run.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
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ARM is the only chance to emerge as a legitimate rival to x86 on the desktop, but it is far from clear when, or if they ever will.
 

Essence_of_War

Platinum Member
Feb 21, 2013
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That is a saucy little device isn't it?

For those wanting a few more details:

https://raptorengineeringinc.com/TALOS/prerelease_specs.php
  • 1 POWER8 SCM
    • 8, 10, and 12 core variants available (190W TDP)
    • 8 and 10 core variants also available in 130W TDP versions
    • Hardware virtualization (HVM, qemu supported)
    • POWER IOMMU
    • Vector Multimedia eXtension (VMX)
    • Vector Scalar eXtension (VSX)
    • AES acceleration for VMX / VSX
  • 8 DDR3 RDIMM slots w/ ECC support (2 memory controllers, 256GB maximum)
  • 2 x16 Coherent Accelerator Processor Interface (CAPI) capable PCIe slots (8 shared lanes)
  • 4 x8 PCIe slots
  • 1 legacy PCI slot
  • 6 SATA 6Gbps ports
  • 1 HDMI port
  • 8x USB 3.0
  • 2 GbE ports
  • 1 external RS232 port
  • 2 internal RS232 ports
  • 1 internal GPIO header
  • 1 quiet heatsink with standard fan
  • Open-toolchain FPGAs
  • Blob-free operation
    • Fully open-source IBM OPAL primary firmware w/ PetitBoot interface
    • Fully open-source OpenBMC secondary (IPMI / OoBM) firmware
  • NO signing keys preventing firmware modification
  • ...and much, much more!

Networking seems a little...sketchy...considering the total price, and just how powerful of a CPU that is.
 

Essence_of_War

Platinum Member
Feb 21, 2013
2,650
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ARM will end up taking the desktop unless Intel reacts.

Really? I don't think it's obvious that ARM actually cares about the desktop. Server room, yes, def. Mobile? They've already essentially won. But desktop?
 

videogames101

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2005
6,777
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Not unless ARM's single thread performance increases, and more OEMs are willing to make ARM machines.

Do you think ARM plans on regressing their IPC? :D

You are 100% correct though, OEM support is the sticking point.
 
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zir_blazer

Golden Member
Jun 6, 2013
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Unlikely. Remember how Intel tried to replace x86 with Itanium? Didn't work out very well. I don't see OpenPower being any different. There's too much software on x86 that people want to run.
18 years ago the context was totally different. You had two big x86 manufacturers bitterly competing between them, more Chipsets manufacturers, and even most important of all, x86 was doing quantum leaps in performance while prices continuosly lowered. Itanium arrived like 3 years later than intended after a lot of hype, its performance and specific Software optimizations requeriments dissapointed, the price was mainframe-like and never reached mainstream as was originally intended, and thanks to AMD x86-64 success which removed a lot of critical x86 limitations at that point of time, it lost a lot of its original importance.
Currently everything is quite stagnant, and we need something that can compete against x86 so Intel doesn't gets the absolute monopoly if AMD were to throw the towel. Also, now security ranks very high, and closed source propietary systems simply don't cut it now that manufacturer provided backdoors are a huge concern (This should make you shiver).



The thing is, by going to anything other than x86, you're sacrifing the ability to run Windows and its Software ecosystem. The same may be said in x86 about trying to migrate to Linux from Windows as main OS. However, if you're already Linux user, it may not hit you that much since most things are easily porteable, so is possible that you get a near identical user experience.
I suppose that emulation could help somewhat, after all, Apple did it with Rosetta back in 2006 during POWER to x86 transition. But don't expect this to be performant enough to get a gaming system out of this, chances are that results will be extremely dissapointing.

But I think that overally, the deciding factor is and will be, the price. The only chance that a non-x86 architecture has to penetrate the market is not with a product like this expensive Workstation, instead, it should be with one that could be affordable enough for enthusiasts or maybe even mainstream users, in such a way that it as a decent grow of installed user base that allows for further development. It is a race to bottom in the name of adoption.
Software side, the focus should be on general everyday usage and office productivity. With a web browser, a media player, productivity applications like OpenOffice, and some other miscellaneous Software, chances are that you have a competent replacement for the typical Pentium/Core i3 system for most of the home and office usage scenarios. It has even more chances to be useful for Joe Average than it is for us. If it would be possible to achieve that in a way that the price is still competitive vs x86 solutions, it will at least have a chance.
 
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TheELF

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Dec 22, 2012
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With a web browser, a media player, productivity applications like OpenOffice, and some other miscellaneous Software, chances are that you have a competent replacement for the typical Pentium/Core i3 system for most of the home and office usage scenarios. It has even more chances to be useful for Joe Average than it is for us. If it would be possible to achieve that in a way that the price is still competitive vs x86 solutions, it will at least have a chance.

No paying the same amount for a platform that only runs a fraction of the software,and even that probably much slower, is bound to fail for the mainstream market.

Android devices are cool and you can do everything you said with them but speed is a very big issue,nobody will pay desktop prices for smartphone performance.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
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I think the ARM hopes died this year with huge setbacks for Apple and Qualcomm.
Wrong. Apple did got a massive buff last year. Where is the setback?

Also, Intel chips are getting even more expensive than before.

The big setback for ARM was the failure of Windows Mobile 10 who is about to die. However that means also that is the end of x86 on the phone market since with Android it gets nerfed.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,617
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$3100 for the base Talos system? Yeouch. I'd like to see some performance numbers on it, though.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
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No matter what happens with AMD, Intel is no longer a monopoly threat.

npd-laptop-and-tablet-sales-2015.png


There is a clear trend towards non-windows machines, many of which are also non x86. If intel keeps charging more than $3 per square millimeter for its silicon while its competitors only charge 30 cents, this trend will continue.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
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Really? I don't think it's obvious that ARM actually cares about the desktop.

ARM isn't one entity. There are some within the ARM community that do care about productivity products, yes.

MS already killed ARM's chance at mainstream desktop usage, by crippling Windows RT.

You overestimate the value of Windows. ARM will become the major desktop CPU and it won't be on the back of Windows. Chrome OS shows us that most consumers don't need very much from a desktop OS. Those that need Windows and Windows applications will be a legacy minority.

I still expect ARM to eat Intel from the bottom up.

Exactly. Apple isn't stopping. Mediatek isn't stopping. Samsung isn't stopping.
 

zir_blazer

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Jun 6, 2013
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No paying the same amount for a platform that only runs a fraction of the software,and even that probably much slower, is bound to fail for the mainstream market.
That's the point, current users just use a fraction of the possible Software and nothing else. With web services and applications that makes the web browser possibily the core OS application, there are a lot of things that don't need locally bound Software anymore. So even if supported Software is reduced to a bare minimum, such a system may still be viable for some type of mainstream users. You just need to take a look on what needs can Linux currently suffice in x86, chances are that it does nearly exactly the same on other architectures.
POWER8 performance looks competent in the few Phoronix benchmarks it was matched against a 8-Core Haswell-E. It may be slower, but is still competitive. What is killing its potential is pricing.


Android devices are cool and you can do everything you said with them but speed is a very big issue,nobody will pay desktop prices for smartphone performance.
That is what makes POWER8 more interesing that ARM. Instead of attemping to scale a small Atom-level ARM core to big core levels, you could do it the other way around and pick a big core and try to scale it down in core quantity.
 

Thala

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Nov 12, 2014
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MS already killed ARM's chance at mainstream desktop usage, by crippling Windows RT.

It is more Microsofts loss than ARMs, because when ARM enters the desktop it will be without Microsoft.
Indeed Microsoft could have laid the foundation for ARM on desktop by _not_ forcing signature checks in Windows RT.
 
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scannall

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Jan 1, 2012
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MS already killed ARM's chance at mainstream desktop usage, by crippling Windows RT.

Exactly. MS is the added insurance for x86. No major OS, that regular consumers can use means no sale. And don't even think about mentioning Linux. And no, the cloud isn't an appropriate answer either. People need to be able to use their computer all the time, not just when connected.
 

zir_blazer

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Jun 6, 2013
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That's exactly how Intel won against Alpha, UltraSPARC, PA RISC, etc.
I have been digging out info about the Itanic fiasco, since articles and discussions from that era are always an interesing and fun read.
Intel didn't actually beat the other CPU architectures from the bottom, it was a sort of physiological maneuver that somehow snowballed. Merely by Intel announcing Itanium, the competing makers adjusted their roadmaps and stopped developing their architectures as if they were expecting that Itanium would take over the world. Is like if they believed that resistance was futile, so nearly fully stopped their efforts. It may be related to the fact that everyone knew that Intel had made bold investments on it, plus you also had some financial analysts that were doing strong forecasts of how much of the market could Itanium take in a mere few years (Which if you see now, looks ridiculous).
The fun part of that is that when Itanium finally showed up, it was already sinking, yet somehow before that, managed to kill or fatally wound all the others competing CPU architectures in the industry...

http://fromsiliconvalley.com/2014/06/16/itanic-liked-the-original-youll-love-the-sequel/
http://fromsiliconvalley.com/2014/06/24/itanic-liked-the-original-youll-love-the-sequel-part-2/


This post from a 2005 discussion explains a bit of what I said.
 
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jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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That's the point, current users just use a fraction of the possible Software and nothing else. With web services and applications that makes the web browser possibily the core OS application, there are a lot of things that don't need locally bound Software anymore. So even if supported Software is reduced to a bare minimum, such a system may still be viable for some type of mainstream users. You just need to take a look on what needs can Linux currently suffice in x86, chances are that it does nearly exactly the same on other architectures.
POWER8 performance looks competent in the few Phoronix benchmarks it was matched against a 8-Core Haswell-E. It may be slower, but is still competitive. What is killing its potential is pricing.

You've just described Chromebooks. They sell in decent numbers, but those numbers are completely dwarfed by mainstream laptops running Windows.

Whether people use all the computing power or not, a vast majority of people do not want to cede local computing into the cloud.

As for running POWER instead of x86 for Linux, there are still many issues here. Performance/watt favors x86, as does initial capital outlay as well as TCO in larger environments. Unless the vendor offers it as an option, and there's a compelling reason, POWER really won't gain any significant traction.

Think back to Itanium again. Itanium ran Linux and OpenVMS. Capital costs were higher (and still are higher) than similar x86 machines. If you're running Linux, why would you go Itanium instead of x86? The only reason is if you bought into the vendor lock-in of OpenVMS. And now HP is dumping that too. So, overall, it wasn't great.

I think it would be nice to have a POWER system. But since all my computing needs are met right now, I can't justify $3000 for a toy that's going to sit in the closet after running a few bemchmarks.

There was a similar situation going on with PowerPC a few years back. There were a few companies trying to bring out non-Mac PowerPC systems. That didn't go so well since similarly speced x86 machines were significanlty less, and there was really no compelling reason to run AmigaOS. And if running Linux, why spend more for the same user experience?