So... thinking of leave grad school (long post warning)

[alkemyst]

Someone has to man the fries.

 

[OverVolt]

It'll pay off big in like 10 years, well maybe. You know.

 

[postmortemIA]

Sounds like you're being prepared to handle the real world. This is exactly how some bosses act, and if you can't handle it now you may have a tough time later.


Good luck

+1. In a real world, there's nobody else to blame but you who is working on it. Op, suck it up. Every mentor wants to see you giving your best and never be too relaxed.

 

[John Connor]

I like the locked parody thread better. HAHAHAHA!

 

[njdevilsfan87]

As far as why I'm grad school, I have my reasons, but now I am starting to weigh them. This "kind" of work is something I've been interested in and got into early as undergrad. I was exposed early on to the frustrations and failures of university research. But despite so, the creative thinking was something I was willing to give a shot. Academia offers that, but it comes at a consequence I have now realized.

So now hopefully that is out the way. I'm not going to school just for the hell of it. If I was I would have handed in my resignation papers a long time ago because there would have been nothing driving me, and I wouldn't have survived it up until now. Classes, lectures, 4.0 GPA in engineering - I can do that. I already have done that. When it's a matter of knowing what I need to do and how to get there, I get it done. But in academia, due to low funding and low manpower, there's no real clear path of how to get to your goal. And then you start thinking if you can even get there at all. Of course, anything can be reached given enough time, but spending 6-8 years in graduate school is a huge opportunity cost. I know that I can get my work done in another 2 years. But the last 3 students who graduated took 7, 7, and 8 years after starting the graduate program. And it's not because they were poor students. I can only wonder what I might be giving up if I happen to stay in school that much longer and if it would be worth it in the long run.

Anyway, for now I will keep it at it. But I have to say, I will be keeping my options open. If I get offered a position in a highly desirable location in the near future, chances are I will walk with the M.S. Then failure will at least be offset by new opportunity.

As far as AT creating parody threads, whatever. If I don't know you, so I don't care, and obviously the same can be said back at me hence the paradox threads. If they make you feel better about whatever your issues are, go for it.

And somewhat on topic, I am the perfect example of a Generation Y Yuppie!

 

[Cappuccino]

Another "Student knows more than teacher" thread...🙄

+1

 

[fire400]

Another "Student knows more than teacher" thread...🙄

lol

it's what they make of it. no more emotions, please! just robotic book work...

 

[IronWing]

I left after three years in toward my PhD. My advisor spent the grant money on high-end workstations (ooh, shiny) leaving me unfunded to complete. He basically wanted me to take out loans and start over on a new project delaying degree completion by several years and screwing the original sponsor. I looked around me and saw students taking up to ten years to finish their PhDs and said "see ya". I would have liked to have completed the PhD but there were and are other things I'd like to do with my life as well.

 

[IEC]

2) When stuff doesn't work, it's almost like it's somehow my fault like. But the thing that bothers me the worst, is the constant asking of "why". Like how should I know why a certain experimental section broke (and then takes time for me to repair). Being asked questions I cannot answer (feeling like I get backed into a corner) is... very depressing almost. Because then I do feel like I am fault. And then I'm just a poor worker. But later once the initial shock wears off, that goes away and starts turning into stress and anger.

Have you ever failed at anything in life, OP? Better get used to failing, and being able to explain why and what you might do differently in the future to avoid the failure(s). It happens a lot in the real world.

 

[Brainonska511]

I left after three years in toward my PhD. My advisor spent the grant money on high-end workstations (ooh, shiny) leaving me unfunded to complete. He basically wanted me to take out loans and start over on a new project delaying degree completion by several years and screwing the original sponsor. I looked around me and saw students taking up to ten years to finish their PhDs and said "see ya". I would have liked to have completed the PhD but there were and are other things I'd like to do with my life as well.

What kind of crappy program was that? I wouldn't expect to spend more than 5-6 years on my PhD.

1) He assigns tasks that are very side-tracking to me overall goal. Almost like optimization tasks, that could honestly be another thesis on its own. I get it. Advisors will use their students. I know that. But I'm not here to stay 7 years to obtain my Phd. And getting stressed out over work I feel I shouldn't even be spending my energy on, is very aggravating.

Learn to prioritize stuff. Figure out what's important for yourself and what's only somewhat important. Sometimes, you'll get stuck doing something tangential - perhaps in case your primary work hits a brick wall or if your adviser is writing a grant (since you generally need to show preliminary data).

2) When stuff doesn't work, it's almost like it's somehow my fault like. But the thing that bothers me the worst, is the constant asking of "why". Like how should I know why a certain experimental section broke (and then takes time for me to repair). Being asked questions I cannot answer (feeling like I get backed into a corner) is... very depressing almost. Because then I do feel like I am fault. And then I'm just a poor worker. But later once the initial shock wears off, that goes away and starts turning into stress and anger.

This is a big part of being a scientist. Experimental design is crucial. If something doesn't work, you need to figure out why it didn't work. There are a number of reasons why something might not work: the experiment was set up incorrectly, you used the wrong piece of equipment to carry out your experiment, equipment malfunction, or even your hypothesis was wrong.

As for the rest: yes, grad school is a grind. As for the people leaving: plenty of people start grad school for the wrong and right reasons. After a few months, some realize it isn't for them or it just doesn't pan out for them.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

Have you ever failed at anything in life, OP? Better get used to failing, and being able to explain why and what you might do differently in the future to avoid the failure(s). It happens a lot in the real world.

It goes beyond just failing and being able to explain why and how I can approach the problem at a different angle. It goes to frustration, guilt, and even depression. As long as I'm doing to the former, I shouldn't have to feel guilty about something not working, especially in experimental work. Frustration, absolutely. Frustration is a driving force. But guilt and eventual depression? When I'm working at poverty level salary trying to make a big contribution to the scientific community? (Even if you factor in tuition and I'm still only at half of what I'd otherwise be likely making out in the industry right now). The advisor should be strict, yet encouraging at the same time. My advisor feels like he against me almost all the time. If I disagree with him, he starts getting very upset and will spin things into a way that make me feel... inadequate. What I am experiencing now, is a complete 180 from the advisor I had as an undergraduate in a different university. I did not stay there because of major budget cuts that happened the year I graduated, forcing almost all entering graduate for at least that year to take out more student loans. Now I wish I had. I would have my M.S. two years ago, and probably been much happier than I am right now.

Failures in academia are as important as the successes. If you can explain a failure with good reason, you will save many others from spending their time going down the same path. Failure of some work is not the problem. That is expected most of the time in academia. It's finding the one thing that does work, and rolling with it. But how the advisor ends up reacting to failure... Be strict, but be supportive and encouraging at the same time. Don't completely drive your student into the ground making them feel completely worthless.

I'm feeling like a change of scenery is due because what has already been seen cannot be unseen. I will have the long deep conversation with the advisor. I will let him know exactly how I feel, the constant anxiety I am going through, and if concluded, leave on the best terms possible. But I can say for sure, I will absolutely not be lured into, "but it will only take you another 2 years".

 

[alkemyst]

lol

it's what they make of it. no more emotions, please! just robotic book work...

By even late undergrad, the robotic nature of things should be pretty gone.

In grad schoo,l you should be branching out a lot more.

 

[Anonemous]

It goes beyond just failing and being able to explain why and how I can approach the problem at a different angle. It goes to frustration, guilt, and even depression. As long as I'm doing to the former, I shouldn't have to feel guilty about something not working, especially in experimental work. Frustration, absolutely. Frustration is a driving force. But guilt and eventual depression? When I'm working at poverty level salary trying to make a big contribution to the scientific community? (Even if you factor in tuition and I'm still only at half of what I'd otherwise be likely making out in the industry right now). The advisor should be strict, yet encouraging at the same time. My advisor feels like he against me almost all the time. What I am experiencing now, is a complete 180 from the advisor I had as an undergraduate in a different university. I did not stay there because of major budget cuts that happened the year I graduated, forcing almost all entering graduate for at least that year to take out more student loans. Now I wish I had. I would have my M.S. two years ago, and probably been much happier than I am right now.

Failures in academia are as important as the successes. If you can explain a failure with good reason, you will save many others from spending their time going down the same path. Failure of some work is not the problem. That is expected most of the time in academia. It's finding the one thing that does work, and rolling with it. But how the advisor ends up reacting to failure... Be strict, but be supportive and encouraging at the same time. Don't completely drive your student into the ground making them feel completely worthless.

I'm feeling like a change of scenery is due because what has already been seen cannot be unseen. I will have the long deep conversation with the advisor. I will let him know exactly how I feel, the constant anxiety I am going through, and if concluded, leave on the best terms possible.

So you got a bad advisor, it happens. You either grind through it or quit. Kinda have to ask yourself, if your advisor already has so much animosity towards you now, do you think they will let you defend? I worked with colleagues that had to go through 2-3 of them to get their PhD. I also have seen colleagues quit school because their advisor mismanaged funds by taking on more students/buying equipment and asked them to take a 75%-90% pay cut.

 

[OverVolt]

Science is underfunded.

 

[Rumpltzer]

My grad school experience was twofold. I did masters and started my PhD in one place, and I finished my PhD (started over) in another. It wasn't my choice to start over, but the second advisor and grad experience made me a lot better than the first. For that, I am very fortunate.

It's not clear to me whether the OP is in a position to take a masters and move on, or has the masters already been taken? My second research advisor was brutal when it came to grad students who weren't performing well; he'd ask them to take their masters and leave. Is that an option?? Two years are done; I'd hate for the OP to walk away with nothing.

My advice would be to suck it up and stick it out if possible. It's just school, but this is the best kind of school; engineering grad school is completely for you. Do what you need to do, and get it done as quickly as possible if you're having a bad time at it... but keep at it.

The reason that I'm presenting this advice is because the OP might not find that working with engineers (and engineering bosses) is much better than what he's seeing in school. I'm not saying that it's likely, but I don't think that it's unlikely.

My engineering friends and I talk about this. We work in high-pressure, agressive fields. There are a lot of PhDs, a lot of personalities, and (surprising to me) a lot of politics. We tend to be accepting of a lot of behavior that would make people working in more... customer oriented (people-friendly?) fields cringe. My good friend at work tells her boyfriend (loan manager at credit union) about what goes on at our work; how we behave and treat one another, and he's shocked and asks why people don't get fired. She and I are puzzled at why he thinks "normal engineer behavior" is a firable offense.


I loved my grad school experience. I miss it. I had freedom and a great boss, and I was learning so much stuff, and there were hot (female) undergrads... *sigh*

I hear a lot of others who hated it and had bad advisors. It happens. It seems common. It's not unique.



My advice:
1) Suck it up. You're not alone in your experience, and work may not be better. This grad school experience is completely for you, and you're better off with the engineering PhD than without.

2) If you can't suck it up, at least take the masters degree. Maybe find someone else... but don't walk away with nothing to show for your two years.

 

[jaedaliu]

My advice:
1) Suck it up. You're not alone in your experience, and work may not be better. This grad school experience is completely for you, and you're better off with the engineering PhD than without.

2) If you can't suck it up, at least take the masters degree. Maybe find someone else... but don't walk away with nothing to show for your two years.

I read that as 2 years of full time research. So that's his 3rd year after quals. At this point, switching to a different advisor/program may set you back 3 years. (2 for the years spent already, and 1 more for applying and figuring out where you want to go)

To me, a PhD is worth the work. There are a million MEs with a BS in industry, 500,000 MSs, and 5,000 PhD. (numbers made up)

I love teaching, but with my MS and disinterest in going back to get a PhD, the best I can hope for is a part time lecturer position somewhere. If I'm lucky, after a few years, they may have me lecture full time, but even then, I'd still stick to industry as a main paycheck because lecturer salary is shit for someone with a MS.

So, I'm sticking to industry. If I want to be a director somewhere, the PhD would be a large differentiator between myself and the other joe shmoe that's also been working in the industry for 20 years.

Or, if I decide to strike it alone and need some VC funding, the PhD will be a symbol of my ability to figure out the unsolved and stick things out to the end. Except I don't have one, so I would have a harder time getting the funding.

Just trying to keep the motivation up. You can talk to your adviser about letting you focus on your project, and when you may be able to finish. Talk to others that your adviser had that recently finished their defense and ask them how close they think you are to the finish line.

Good luck!

 

[mynoriap]

njdevilsfan87, hang in there. although it may be tough now, you will see the benefits (of staying through to completion) over time.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

Or, if I decide to strike it alone and need some VC funding, the PhD will be a symbol of my ability to figure out the unsolved and stick things out to the end. Except I don't have one, so I would have a harder time getting the funding.

I know that my work, and my path that I am proposing should take about another two years, starting from January 2014. My path, I would put my estimated dissertation defense at May 2016 at the very latest. The path I propose is a new and good contribution to the scientific community. I would also do some extra numerical work since I enjoy coding and I can code these (and utilize CUDA) problems myself and bang out both experiments and scaled up simulation results.

Right now, I can tell he is trying to force me down another path where I could really just throw away my first two years or work, because there's no connection. Because of this, it would probably take about 3-4 years since it would be a new project. It would be a non-issue if the new path was at least tied into what I've done so far. But it doesn't.

If he had other things in mind for me, he should have told me this 1-2 years ago, and not started me up on something that would have nothing to do with my final dissertation. All of this time I've been figuring out ways to extend my work, and I finally found a good one. If I start a new project, I throw away two years of work. If I leave, I throw away two years of work. But there is at least the possibility of being able to continue it elsewhere, and in a much better work environment.

I'm taking things slow this week. Instead of rushing in and dropping the bomb, I'll be figuring out exactly what my conditions for continued work are, along with my research plan (this part I already know). If we can't agree, then I will offer to make the transition between me leaving and someone else picking up his planned project as smooth as possible. That would include me going to the M.S. thesis route. I have worked on a large project already, and have done more than enough for one. I have fairly earned one. It would take a few months to properly write up, and in that time I could tie up any loose ends, and train another student to work this lab. That would minimize departure loss. This is opposed to a non-thesis based M.S., and I'm well beyond the requirements for that now. Non-thesis is absolute last option after all others have been exhausted.

I am on set on sticking with the PhD. Just not here. If he doesn't accept my plan, I'm going to leave and find another advisor at another school willing to take on my plan, and even more importantly - let me call some shots in the research! I'm here to learn how to become a project/research lead/manager. If I'm just following order after order non-stop all the way until graduation (which will take much longer as well), I am not getting everything out of this program that I need in order to reach my long term goal.

I've been following orders all the way for nearly two years now. Let's call that the training period. It's time to let me start taking over and directing my work. I'm not asking for complete control, but at least an equal share. This is where an advisor needs to be an advisor, and not a boss. If he is more concerned about himself than he is me, (after having some hundreds of publications among many different students over the decades), then I cannot go on with him. I will not stick around for the sake of publishing as many papers as I possibly can in a 7 year span performing "ordered tasks" (note, I have completed 2 now) before "being allowed" to graduate.

And for the last time before anyone gets confused. When I say 7-8 years, I'm not saying 7-8 years in total. I'm saying 7-8 + 4 undergrad which = 11-12 in total. That is what the last three graduates, and soon a fourth, have spent on their PhD. Hopefully it was just a bad stretch.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

i wouldnt do it in the first place, but if i invested 3 years of my life i certainly wouldnt quit then

 

[crashtestdummy]

You're in what I like to call the "wandering the desert phase" of your PhD career. uclalabrat covered most of the important stuff, but here are my thoughts:

1) Your experience, as far as you've described it, is completely normal. That doesn't mean you're wrong to feel disregarded and disrespected, but it does mean that it's not likely to change by moving to another program or advisor. Your advisor doesn't care much about you. Neither does mine about me. Neither do most advisors. That can't be your standard to go forward.

1a) Nearly everyone who sticks it out, graduates, and you're not so special that you won't. You're not in some special awful situation. You're where most PhD students are at some point, and like them, you can get through.

1b) There is almost no penalty to sticking with it. Sure, you lose some time, but if you leave now vs in two years, you'll be in the same place. There is no negative outcome except the pain and frustration of the present.

2) My father tried to tell me this, but I didn't believe it until it happened: A PhD is really a solid year of work. It's not that you aren't spending your time productively the rest of your degree, but if you had to re-do all your data at the end, it would typically take about a year (animal biology and astronomy excluded). Most of the preceding time you're spending learning how to ask the right questions by asking a lot of wrong ones. What that means is that "throwing out your first two years" isn't as big a loss as it sounds like right now

3) Adjust your project ambitions. If you're like most PhD students (I know I was), you came in with a very high-minded opinion of yourself and what you'd be able to accomplish. At this point, you should be realizing that just getting through is more important the solving all the world's problems. Ask simple, concrete questions about your project, and come up with ways to answer them that give you something to discuss no matter what results your experiments produce.

4) If you haven't already, talk to lots of outsiders. You boss has his/her toolkit for solving problems, but those aren't guaranteed to be all you need. Talking to people who fill your gaps in knowledge, even (I'd say especially) ones who aren't an expert in your field, can be enormously beneficial.

5) Managing your sanity is your most important job for the next two years, beyond getting your work done. Do what needs to happen to keep a level head and a creative mind. It's very easy to fall into an overworking death spiral, but you will actually be far more productive when you have some time to relax and process your work in the background while you're out hiking.