So the bailouts are for the rich?

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
In this video Germany's Finance Minister says "The U.S. will lose its status as a superpower in the world financial system". French President says more regulation is needed. Economist Michael Hudson mentions it is about the rich, that its not a bailout but a "giveaway" a "pyramid scheme".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdsnIYurpSM


I tend to agree. This is not only socialist intervention, its also letting the biggest crooks off while the taxpayers foot the bill.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

In this video Germany's Finance Minister says "The U.S. will lose its status as a superpower in the world financial system". French President says more regulation is needed. Economist Michael Hudson mentions it is about the rich, that its not a bailout but a "giveaway" a "pyramid scheme".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdsnIYurpSM


I tend to agree. This is not only socialist intervention, its also letting the biggest crooks off while the taxpayers foot the bill.

Topic Title: So the bailouts are for the rich?

Who else did Germany or anyone else think the bailout was for? :confused:
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
i would like to so more equity intervention, but whatever. The will loosen up credit markets and let peopel start buying homes again, which will stop the fall in home prices and hopefully slow the default rates.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Without a massive capital infusion and increase in the money supply you'd have crippling contractions in GDP, wages, and investment expectations. We'd likely lock in a small generation of U.S. investors with overly cautious expectations to risking assets in equity investment, much the way we locked in an overly-cautious generation until the 1960's due to the crippling nature of the 1929 crash and Depression. This is what a lot of these loony laissez-faire laymans don't get; the investment-related expectations of the public are just as big a concern as practically anything else, be it recapitalizing firms or getting rid of toxic debt. To claim some oversimplified yeoman nonsensical solution like "moral hazard" or "gov't intrusion = bad" is absurd. This idea that you can't run an economy off of debt is, plain and simply put, something that laymans don't get because they don't understand TVM; time value of money. Bottom line is that if you can borrow dollars now, pay back the principle (plus interest) later, while investing those loaned dollars for years in the meantime, you'll come out ahead if you invest well.

In any case, there's simply no reasonable way to claim that the solution is let the debt go unpaid or to scrap the New Economy of the last 25 years as Michael Hudson (cited in the OP) would have us believe. You cannot "let" these institutions fail or, even worse, end up doing no bailout whatsoever (gov't-assisted or not) without entering into an inevitable multi-year or even decade-long domestic financial slowdown. And this is to say nothing of how foreign nations would react to our slowdown; our decisions will have a direct impact on global market expectations like you wouldn't believe.

To all these dolts, especially the fantasy-land far right Republican nuts in Congress that dare to put this country in jeopardy by threatening to not pass any bill whatsoever (by filibustering), due to misguided ideological BS about the evil of gov't bailout, I say shame on you. Put your country first you rejects, otherwise you without question risk a global fucking depression.
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: jbourne77
You guys can't be serious...

How much you getting?

It was never intended for me. In case you haven't noticed, the loanable funds market has dried up, and banks, business, and private citizens can't conduct every day business as a result. That's what it was intended to fix. Whether it does or not remains to be seen, but were you seriously expecting a check in the mail?
 

cyberserf

Member
Sep 28, 2000
58
0
61
This bailout is to save the global markets too. not just the USA. You noticed how the world markets fall and the US always comes in to save them.
bastards are hell bent on making everything global so the rich get richer.
oh well, there goes our children's future.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Without a massive capital infusion and increase in the money supply you'd have crippling contractions in GDP, wages, and investment expectations. We'd likely lock in a small generation of U.S. investors with overly cautious expectations to risking assets in equity investment, much the way we locked in an overly-cautious generation until the 1960's due to the crippling nature of the 1929 crash and Depression. This is what a lot of these loony laissez-faire laymans don't get; the investment-related expectations of the public are just as big a concern as practically anything else, be it recapitalizing firms or getting rid of toxic debt. To claim some oversimplified yeoman nonsensical solution like "moral hazard" or "gov't intrusion = bad" is absurd. This idea that you can't run an economy off of debt is, plain and simply put, something that laymans don't get because they don't understand TVM; time value of money. Bottom line is that if you can borrow dollars now, pay back the principle (plus interest) later, while investing those loaned dollars for years in the meantime, you'll come out ahead if you invest well.

In any case, there's simply no reasonable way to claim that the solution is let the debt go unpaid or to scrap the New Economy of the last 25 years as Michael Hudson (cited in the OP) would have us believe. You cannot "let" these institutions fail or, even worse, end up doing no bailout whatsoever (gov't-assisted or not) without entering into an inevitable multi-year or even decade-long domestic financial slowdown. And this is to say nothing of how foreign nations would react to our slowdown; our decisions will have a direct impact on global market expectations like you wouldn't believe.

To all these dolts, especially the fantasy-land far right Republican nuts in Congress that dare to put this country in jeopardy by threatening to not pass any bill whatsoever (by filibustering), due to misguided ideological BS about the evil of gov't bailout, I say shame on you. Put your country first you rejects, otherwise you without question risk a global fucking depression.
Fannie/Freddie (200 billions through 2009), Bear Stearns (29 billion), AIG (85 billion), and the big 3 auto companies (25 billion) were all bailed out or given/in process of getting unprecended loans from tax payers. I think the government has already done more than enough, 700 billion on top of the 300 billion+ already spent for aforementioned companies is ridiculous. Where will it end after that big (700 billion) a precedent has been set? Our country will soon be pussified into a bunch of whining crybabies who won't take responsibility (if it isn't already that way already). Car makers, insurance lenders, financial giants, and soon other sectors will be asking for handouts.

You say the House Reps are filibustering, I say they're wisely deliberating. And I hope this stupid 700 billion dollar loan is never approved, 200 billion was enough for Fannie/Freddie. Somebody needs to stand up for the American taxpayer, our children, and take responsibility for this house of cards (that the rich companies created) falling on its face.

 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,105
45,098
136
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Without a massive capital infusion and increase in the money supply you'd have crippling contractions in GDP, wages, and investment expectations. We'd likely lock in a small generation of U.S. investors with overly cautious expectations to risking assets in equity investment, much the way we locked in an overly-cautious generation until the 1960's due to the crippling nature of the 1929 crash and Depression. This is what a lot of these loony laissez-faire laymans don't get; the investment-related expectations of the public are just as big a concern as practically anything else, be it recapitalizing firms or getting rid of toxic debt. To claim some oversimplified yeoman nonsensical solution like "moral hazard" or "gov't intrusion = bad" is absurd. This idea that you can't run an economy off of debt is, plain and simply put, something that laymans don't get because they don't understand TVM; time value of money. Bottom line is that if you can borrow dollars now, pay back the principle (plus interest) later, while investing those loaned dollars for years in the meantime, you'll come out ahead if you invest well.

In any case, there's simply no reasonable way to claim that the solution is let the debt go unpaid or to scrap the New Economy of the last 25 years as Michael Hudson (cited in the OP) would have us believe. You cannot "let" these institutions fail or, even worse, end up doing no bailout whatsoever (gov't-assisted or not) without entering into an inevitable multi-year or even decade-long domestic financial slowdown. And this is to say nothing of how foreign nations would react to our slowdown; our decisions will have a direct impact on global market expectations like you wouldn't believe.

To all these dolts, especially the fantasy-land far right Republican nuts in Congress that dare to put this country in jeopardy by threatening to not pass any bill whatsoever (by filibustering), due to misguided ideological BS about the evil of gov't bailout, I say shame on you. Put your country first you rejects, otherwise you without question risk a global fucking depression.
Fannie/Freddie (200 billions through 2009), Bear Stearns (29 billion), AIG (85 billion), and the big 3 auto companies (25 billion) were all bailed out or given/in process of getting unprecended loans from tax payers. I think the government has already done more than enough, 700 billion on top of the 300 billion+ already spent for aforementioned companies is ridiculous. Where will it end after that big (700 billion) a precedent has been set? Our country will soon be pussified into a bunch of whining crybabies who won't take responsibility (if it isn't already that way already). Car makers, insurance lenders, financial giants, and soon other sectors will be asking for handouts.

You say the House Reps are filibustering, I say they're wisely deliberating. And I hope this stupid 700 billion dollar loan is never approved, 200 billion was enough for Fannie/Freddie. Somebody needs to stand up for the American taxpayer, our children, and take responsibility for this house of cards (that the rich companies created) falling on its face.

Unfortunately the economy doesn't run on righteous indignation.

Something HAS to be done before the credit market totally dries up and blows away in the wind. Then you'll see real trouble and what you would call responsible companies/banks going down like dominoes.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
fyi on what the 'little people' get: the worlds largest timeshare seller is closing it's sales operation because it can't get loan funding - not just for trash loans - 300 people are layed off; the worlds largest chevy dealer has done the same - 2700 people are layed off...

--and i know that these aren't the most glowing examples of humanitarian businesses, but there's more closings like this every day... and the evil banks and such do actually provide a lot of jobs to 'normal' people, too...

on a more personal note: a family owned business that pays it's bills and has 50% equity to value needs to refinance a property that provides housing to over 400 working americans - and may not be able to get a loan...

the shit is in the fan, and it's not just big business that's getting benefit... there'a lot of people who've invested their savings in businesses and been fiscally responsible who are getting squished by this thing...
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: cyberserf
This bailout is to save the global markets too. not just the USA. You noticed how the world markets fall and the US always comes in to save them.
bastards are hell bent on making everything global so the rich get richer.
oh well, there goes our children's future.

But on the bright side we got that bad man Saddam.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Without a massive capital infusion and increase in the money supply you'd have crippling contractions in GDP, wages, and investment expectations. We'd likely lock in a small generation of U.S. investors with overly cautious expectations to risking assets in equity investment, much the way we locked in an overly-cautious generation until the 1960's due to the crippling nature of the 1929 crash and Depression. This is what a lot of these loony laissez-faire laymans don't get; the investment-related expectations of the public are just as big a concern as practically anything else, be it recapitalizing firms or getting rid of toxic debt. To claim some oversimplified yeoman nonsensical solution like "moral hazard" or "gov't intrusion = bad" is absurd. This idea that you can't run an economy off of debt is, plain and simply put, something that laymans don't get because they don't understand TVM; time value of money. Bottom line is that if you can borrow dollars now, pay back the principle (plus interest) later, while investing those loaned dollars for years in the meantime, you'll come out ahead if you invest well.

In any case, there's simply no reasonable way to claim that the solution is let the debt go unpaid or to scrap the New Economy of the last 25 years as Michael Hudson (cited in the OP) would have us believe. You cannot "let" these institutions fail or, even worse, end up doing no bailout whatsoever (gov't-assisted or not) without entering into an inevitable multi-year or even decade-long domestic financial slowdown. And this is to say nothing of how foreign nations would react to our slowdown; our decisions will have a direct impact on global market expectations like you wouldn't believe.

To all these dolts, especially the fantasy-land far right Republican nuts in Congress that dare to put this country in jeopardy by threatening to not pass any bill whatsoever (by filibustering), due to misguided ideological BS about the evil of gov't bailout, I say shame on you. Put your country first you rejects, otherwise you without question risk a global fucking depression.
Fannie/Freddie (200 billions through 2009), Bear Stearns (29 billion), AIG (85 billion), and the big 3 auto companies (25 billion) were all bailed out or given/in process of getting unprecended loans from tax payers. I think the government has already done more than enough, 700 billion on top of the 300 billion+ already spent for aforementioned companies is ridiculous. Where will it end after that big (700 billion) a precedent has been set? Our country will soon be pussified into a bunch of whining crybabies who won't take responsibility (if it isn't already that way already). Car makers, insurance lenders, financial giants, and soon other sectors will be asking for handouts.

You say the House Reps are filibustering, I say they're wisely deliberating. And I hope this stupid 700 billion dollar loan is never approved, 200 billion was enough for Fannie/Freddie. Somebody needs to stand up for the American taxpayer, our children, and take responsibility for this house of cards (that the rich companies created) falling on its face.

Unfortunately the economy doesn't run on righteous indignation.

Something HAS to be done before the credit market totally dries up and blows away in the wind. Then you'll see real trouble and what you would call responsible companies/banks going down like dominoes.
300+ billion has already been injected into 5+ companies, which is half of the cost of the Iraq War. Fiscal responsibility has nothing to do with righteous indignation. This just in: Wachovia bank is going under. Are they going to be added to the bailout as well? Rofl.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I am no finance expert. But this bailout isnt just for the rich. It is for everybody. Without the ability to lend or borrow the economy will grind to a halt.
 

BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,631
88
91
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i would like to so more equity intervention, but whatever. The will loosen up credit markets and let peopel start buying homes again, which will stop the fall in home prices and hopefully slow the default rates.

So how much longer should my fiance and I expect to wait before housing falls to reasonable prices? We didn't take suicide loans to buy a house we couldn't afford and now we're getting punished. There is no good reason for the median home to cost 6x the median household income. But I appreciate the government's efforts to keep us out of a home forever.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: Genx87
I am no finance expert. But this bailout isnt just for the rich. It is for everybody. Without the ability to lend or borrow the economy will grind to a halt.
I love how you doom and gloomers claim this bill is for everyone. How? We don't even know the true value of the assets that would be purchased by this bill... and do we REALLY need more "committees" (the bill calls for 2 more to be formed) to watch over us? That is the Federal Reserve's job, now we need 2 groups to watch them? It's like getting 2 accountants to check my accountant's work: it's knee-jerk overkill and its purpose is to manipulate the taxpayers into approving this horse manure. "Let's make them feel safe, Henry!"

Last, you (and a bunch of other morons in this forum) claim we won't be able to "lend or borrow" if this bill isn't approved. Ok, then why are Chase, Citi, and most of the large banks and their subsidiaries (Smith Barney) still doing fine? If I hear one more person post that we won't be able to get a loan (car, house, business) because of this "crisis" I'm going to cry. Not to mention that half of the people posting actually work in the financial sector so of course they're biased. They may not get a huge raise this year w/out this bailout. Proof that 6 of the major 10 banks are still doing ok (and keep in mind that Wachovia was the ONLY one in the top 10 that went under):

JP/Morgan Chase 2 year chart - business as usual

Citi 2 year - close to alltime low but bouncing back with Wachovia buyout

Bank of America 2 year - already bounced back.

Wells Fargo 2 year - AT AN ALL TIME HIGH

Suntrust 2 year - Business as usual.

HSBC 2 year - bouncing back.

Keep spreading your doom and gloom, but some of us know that some banks actually didn't fall for the subprime BS and are still F-I-N-E. Yeah, we won't have as many lenders to choose from, but hey, the fat has been cut and you have to actually have a credit rating to get something now. Imagine that?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,105
45,098
136
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Without a massive capital infusion and increase in the money supply you'd have crippling contractions in GDP, wages, and investment expectations. We'd likely lock in a small generation of U.S. investors with overly cautious expectations to risking assets in equity investment, much the way we locked in an overly-cautious generation until the 1960's due to the crippling nature of the 1929 crash and Depression. This is what a lot of these loony laissez-faire laymans don't get; the investment-related expectations of the public are just as big a concern as practically anything else, be it recapitalizing firms or getting rid of toxic debt. To claim some oversimplified yeoman nonsensical solution like "moral hazard" or "gov't intrusion = bad" is absurd. This idea that you can't run an economy off of debt is, plain and simply put, something that laymans don't get because they don't understand TVM; time value of money. Bottom line is that if you can borrow dollars now, pay back the principle (plus interest) later, while investing those loaned dollars for years in the meantime, you'll come out ahead if you invest well.

In any case, there's simply no reasonable way to claim that the solution is let the debt go unpaid or to scrap the New Economy of the last 25 years as Michael Hudson (cited in the OP) would have us believe. You cannot "let" these institutions fail or, even worse, end up doing no bailout whatsoever (gov't-assisted or not) without entering into an inevitable multi-year or even decade-long domestic financial slowdown. And this is to say nothing of how foreign nations would react to our slowdown; our decisions will have a direct impact on global market expectations like you wouldn't believe.

To all these dolts, especially the fantasy-land far right Republican nuts in Congress that dare to put this country in jeopardy by threatening to not pass any bill whatsoever (by filibustering), due to misguided ideological BS about the evil of gov't bailout, I say shame on you. Put your country first you rejects, otherwise you without question risk a global fucking depression.
Fannie/Freddie (200 billions through 2009), Bear Stearns (29 billion), AIG (85 billion), and the big 3 auto companies (25 billion) were all bailed out or given/in process of getting unprecended loans from tax payers. I think the government has already done more than enough, 700 billion on top of the 300 billion+ already spent for aforementioned companies is ridiculous. Where will it end after that big (700 billion) a precedent has been set? Our country will soon be pussified into a bunch of whining crybabies who won't take responsibility (if it isn't already that way already). Car makers, insurance lenders, financial giants, and soon other sectors will be asking for handouts.

You say the House Reps are filibustering, I say they're wisely deliberating. And I hope this stupid 700 billion dollar loan is never approved, 200 billion was enough for Fannie/Freddie. Somebody needs to stand up for the American taxpayer, our children, and take responsibility for this house of cards (that the rich companies created) falling on its face.

Unfortunately the economy doesn't run on righteous indignation.

Something HAS to be done before the credit market totally dries up and blows away in the wind. Then you'll see real trouble and what you would call responsible companies/banks going down like dominoes.
300+ billion has already been injected into 5+ companies, which is half of the cost of the Iraq War. Fiscal responsibility has nothing to do with righteous indignation. This just in: Wachovia bank is going under. Are they going to be added to the bailout as well? Rofl.

Probably will be taken over by the feds and assets sold for a song because nobody wants the load of securities they're saddled with.

You can shout "fiscal responsibility" until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that we are presented a limited set of choices on how to deal with this, each shittier than the last. The bailout is the least shitty way out available at present and a sizable portion of that money will come back to the government. It isn't a good solution, merely the least damaging one.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: K1052
Probably will be taken over by the feds and assets sold for a song because nobody wants the load of securities they're saddled with.

You can shout "fiscal responsibility" until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that we are presented a limited set of choices on how to deal with this, each shittier than the last. The bailout is the least shitty way out available at present and a sizable portion of that money will come back to the government. It isn't a good solution, merely the least damaging one.
Respond to my post above where I list 6 of the top 10 US banks and show that they're doing fine. Pray tell, what will be the repercussions of NOT approving this bill? I'd love to hear your worst case, doom and gloom scenario. ;)
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,105
45,098
136
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
If I hear one more person post that we won't be able to get a loan (car, house, business) because of this "crisis" I'm going to cry. Not to mention that half of the people posting actually work in the financial sector so of course they're biased. They may not get a huge raise this year w/out this bailout

The credit crunch will effect business first and the worst, cutting off funds budgeted for operations and expansion. The survivors would come down to attrition as they exhaust their cash reserves with the end result of being sold for a song or folding up shop. If the commercial lending market implodes the economy is going to come to a screeching halt.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
hope/wish you are right... i guess i'll know in a couple months...

and i'm not in the financial industry, i'm just a poor dumb schlub with a good credit rating who needs to be able to be able to raise capital every now and then...

and this thing has me scared... a large chunk of my life savings are at risk here...