So Russian forces have taken Slavynsk and Doneskt... anyone who said not past Crimea?

[cubby1223]

Why would Russia stop the propaganda, the violence, and the chaos? To make it easier for NATO to bring Ukraine in as a member? That's not how the world works. The only way it will stop is if there is a deal between Russia and NATO for it to stop.

Quit talking about NATO as if it is the key to this whole puzzle.

Ukraine doesn't want Russia to start wars within its borders, nor does it want Russia to sabotage other politics within its country (i.e. the events that sparked the initial protests in Kiev).

A full on war with Russia is the only way to achieve that.

And you say Russia will never stop until NATO is not a part of Ukraine. The only way Russia can ever feel "safe" in believing Ukraine will never be a part of NATO, is if Russia invades and takes control of Ukraine and it becomes a satellite nation like in the former U.S.S.R. days.


The only way for Ukraine to be at peace is full war.

The only way for Russia to ensure no NATO is full war.

So, do tell exactly how this situation gets resolved without war, Mr. I-know-everything-about-Eastern-European-politics.


In the end, all this is, is Putin feeding his own ego. There is no threat to Russia's sovereignty if its border countries want to not be invaded and killed.

 

[theeedude]

Quit talking about NATO as if it is the key to this whole puzzle.

We can quit talking about it, but it will still be the key to this whole puzzle.

Ukraine doesn't want Russia to start wars within its borders, nor does it want Russia to sabotage other politics within its country (i.e. the events that sparked the initial protests in Kiev).
A full on war with Russia is the only way to achieve that.

A full on war with Russia will only achieve total destruction for Ukraine, none of the things you claim they want.

And you say Russia will never stop until NATO is not a part of Ukraine. The only way Russia can ever feel "safe" in believing Ukraine will never be a part of NATO, is if Russia invades and takes control of Ukraine and it becomes a satellite nation like in the former U.S.S.R. days.
The only way for Ukraine to be at peace is full war.
The only way for Russia to ensure no NATO is full war.
So, do tell exactly how this situation gets resolved without war, Mr. I-know-everything-about-Eastern-European-politics.

NATO can say no to Ukraine, you know. Also, Ukraine could put guarantees of neutrality into its constitution, including more power for regions, including veto over foreign alliances.
In any case, it's not Russia's concern. Ukraine and NATO need to figure out how to assure Russia that Ukraine won't be part of NATO. In the meantime, I don't see why Russia would do anything other than try to destabilize Ukraine to make it too messy for NATO to touch.

 

[glenn1]

it could very well be lies from the u.s.g. mr. johnson. but even if it is not, it is none of the u.s.g.'s business.

The U.S. started things by engineering the coup that overthrew Viktor Yanukovich. The Russians followed it up by leaking the Fuck the EU phone call and beginning the operations we're talking about now. This is classic "blowback" in action.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yawn. It's interesting how propaganda shapes opinion.

So, uhh, what's the timeline of Russian forces involvement in Crimea?

While Putin admits there were there for the referendum, that doesn't mean they were from the beginning of the Secessionist movement or that they staged it.

Anybody have a translation of his exact remarks & answers to the questions posed, or do we just go with the western spin on it all?

 

[fskimospy]

Why would Russia stop the propaganda, the violence, and the chaos? To make it easier for NATO to bring Ukraine in as a member? That's not how the world works. The only way it will stop is if there is a deal between Russia and NATO for it to stop.

What is so baffling to me is that these actions are explicitly making it easier for NATO to bring Ukraine in as a member. The ukranian population was very against membership before, now they are for it. Ukranian elites had disavowed NATO membership before, now they are actively seeking it.

Before latching on to a narrative it is important to look at the whole picture. You've just swallowed Russian propaganda on this part of the issue as well.

 

[fskimospy]

Yawn. It's interesting how propaganda shapes opinion.

So, uhh, what's the timeline of Russian forces involvement in Crimea?

While Putin admits there were there for the referendum, that doesn't mean they were from the beginning of the Secessionist movement or that they staged it.

Anybody have a translation of his exact remarks & answers to the questions posed, or do we just go with the western spin on it all?

You can't be serious.

 

[Jhhnn]

You can't be serious.

I am serious. The spin from our own press corps has been quite furious from the beginning.

What did Putin actually say? What's the context?

Or do we just believe what the media is sure we want to believe?

NATO? NATO won't touch Ukraine with a pole at this point. Anybody who thinks that our European allies will risk War with Russia over Ukraine has shit fer brains. Sneak it in through the back door? Sure. That opportunity is past, if it ever was real in the first place.

The sad truth is that our meddling has released forces beyond our control, both in Ukraine & Russia, all of which was highly predictable. If our govt & the govts of our Allies didn't see that coming, they weren't looking very hard.

 

[fskimospy]

I am serious. The spin from our own press corps has been quite furious from the beginning.

What did Putin actually say? What's the context?

Or do we just believe what the media is sure we want to believe?

NATO? NATO won't touch Ukraine with a pole at this point. Anybody who thinks that our European allies will risk War with Russia over Ukraine has shit fer brains. Sneak it in through the back door? Sure. That opportunity is past, if it ever was real in the first place.

The sad truth is that our meddling has released forces beyond our control, both in Ukraine & Russia, all of which was highly predictable. If our govt & the govts of our Allies didn't see that coming, they weren't looking very hard.

I'm unaware of any credible source that believes Russian troops were not present in Crimea from very early on in the crisis. You've just swallowed Russian propaganda on this issue.

What's strange is that after being fooled once in Crimea why the same trick would work again in eastern Ukraine.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm unaware of any credible source that believes Russian troops were not present in Crimea from very early on in the crisis. You've just swallowed Russian propaganda on this issue.

What's strange is that after being fooled once in Crimea why the same trick would work again in eastern Ukraine.

Maybe because it never was a trick.

And I'm sure when you say "Sources" you mean "Western Sources", correct?

I'm not claiming to know the truth about what's going on in Ukraine, but I'm confident it's not what western news sources represent it to be. They have their own spin on it, a desire to sensationalize everything to garner audience share & support our own culture memes. In case you haven't noticed, their integrity is just as suspect as Putin's.

 

[fskimospy]

Maybe because it never was a trick.

And I'm sure when you say "Sources" you mean "Western Sources", correct?

I'm not claiming to know the truth about what's going on in Ukraine, but I'm confident it's not what western news sources represent it to be. They have their own spin on it, a desire to sensationalize everything to garner audience share & support our own culture memes. In case you haven't noticed, their integrity is just as suspect as Putin's.

No, I mean any credible source. There is a reason why Russia's denials are met with eye rolling and/or derisive laughter. If you think Russia's repeated attacks in Ukraine for having the temerity to not want to be a Russian satellite state are justified that's on you. Denial of facts no longer in dispute is pointless though.

Putin duped you once, don't let him do it again.

 

[theeedude]

What is so baffling to me is that these actions are explicitly making it easier for NATO to bring Ukraine in as a member. The ukranian population was very against membership before, now they are for it. Ukranian elites had disavowed NATO membership before, now they are actively seeking it.

Before latching on to a narrative it is important to look at the whole picture. You've just swallowed Russian propaganda on this part of the issue as well.

Ukrainian current elites didn't disavow NATO membership. They applied for it in 2008.
http://www.unian.info/world/89447-ukraine-asks-to-join-nato-membership-action-plan.html

In any case, Ukrainians don't decide these things, NATO does. And right now, Ukraine is too hot for NATO to handle. And Russia will keep it that way.

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

There is no proof that they are Russian troops. We saw the same accusations wrt Crimea, and it turned out to be pro-Russian militias.

Yawn. It's interesting how propaganda shapes opinion.

It sure is.

 

[fskimospy]

Ukrainian current elites didn't disavow NATO membership. They applied for it in 2008.
http://www.unian.info/world/89447-ukraine-asks-to-join-nato-membership-action-plan.html

In any case, Ukrainians don't decide these things, NATO does. And right now, Ukraine is too hot for NATO to handle. And Russia will keep it that way.

No it won't. My bet remains on the table, btw.

 

[Genx87]

There is no proof that they are Russian troops. We saw the same accusations wrt Crimea, and it turned out to be pro-Russian militias.

It was ultra-nationalist western Ukrainian militias that toppled the regime in Kiev, of course.

How fucked up is your country in the first place if you have all these armed militias, anyway?

Yeh, sure, it's a gun totin' revolutionary authoritarian followin' dream, but, uhh, really? How did it come to this? Does the West bear no responsibility for its role?

We've played Ukrainians as pawns in the Great Game, just as we did the Georgians before them. When we lose, it's just pawns, anyway, right?

How far can you stick your head in the sand? You forget about Crimea already?

Yeah yeah no Russian interference in Eastern Ukraine, just like no Russian interferencein Crimea. Some of you people are fucking dense.

 

[Genx87]

Yawn. It's interesting how propaganda shapes opinion.

So, uhh, what's the timeline of Russian forces involvement in Crimea?

While Putin admits there were there for the referendum, that doesn't mean they were from the beginning of the Secessionist movement or that they staged it.

Anybody have a translation of his exact remarks & answers to the questions posed, or do we just go with the western spin on it all?

Hahahaha

 

[MongGrel]

I am serious. The spin from our own press corps has been quite furious from the beginning.

What did Putin actually say? What's the context?

Or do we just believe what the media is sure we want to believe?

NATO? NATO won't touch Ukraine with a pole at this point. Anybody who thinks that our European allies will risk War with Russia over Ukraine has shit fer brains. Sneak it in through the back door? Sure. That opportunity is past, if it ever was real in the first place.

The sad truth is that our meddling has released forces beyond our control, both in Ukraine & Russia, all of which was highly predictable. If our govt & the govts of our Allies didn't see that coming, they weren't looking very hard.

Unfortunately, you appear to be.

 

[Jaskalas]

You have to be precise when you say "Russian Forces" because there are different "Russian" forces in play with varying degrees of opposition, ambivalence, support of regimes in Kiev or Moscow:
-Russian speakers from Ukraine
-Ethnic Russians from Ukraine
-Pro-Russian separatists from Eastern Ukraine, volunteers from Crimea, disgruntled special forces from Kiev.
-Irregular volunteers/Cossacks/mercenaries from Russia in Ukraine
-Russian intelligence/special forces
-Regular Russian military forces (full scale invasion, which is not happening yet as far as I am aware)

^ This post is still important. Thus far no one has brought us evidence, or even claims, that "Russian forces" have advanced forward past Crimea. Still waiting for the OP to back up the topic title.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Yawn. It's interesting how propaganda shapes opinion.

So, uhh, what's the timeline of Russian forces involvement in Crimea?

While Putin admits there were there for the referendum, that doesn't mean they were from the beginning of the Secessionist movement or that they staged it.

Anybody have a translation of his exact remarks & answers to the questions posed, or do we just go with the western spin on it all?

Seriously?! Every news story that has been published about this since the 4 hour public telecast where he admitted that the 'little green men' in Crimea were Russian troops is a lie?

Damn, who would have thought that the world's media would be stupid enough to lie about something in the public record.

And you couldn't bother to take 30 seconds to google it?

Pathetic. Have you now become part of the Russian version of Hasbara?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8AMsRx2jjY

 

[Victorian Gray]

Maybe because it never was a trick.

And I'm sure when you say "Sources" you mean "Western Sources", correct?

I'm not claiming to know the truth about what's going on in Ukraine, but I'm confident it's not what western news sources represent it to be. They have their own spin on it, a desire to sensationalize everything to garner audience share & support our own culture memes. In case you haven't noticed, their integrity is just as suspect as Putin's.

Then maybe you should take the time to inform yourself before you make a fool of yourself on a public forum.

Talk about fucking false equivalency... One country, Russia, is in the process of invading another one based on absolutely no actual real justification. It's simply naked aggression on the part of Putin.

And you seem intent on being an apologist for that. Pathetic.

 

[Sulaco]

Maybe because it never was a trick.

And I'm sure when you say "Sources" you mean "Western Sources", correct?

I'm not claiming to know the truth about what's going on in Ukraine, but I'm confident it's not what western news sources represent it to be. They have their own spin on it, a desire to sensationalize everything to garner audience share & support our own culture memes. In case you haven't noticed, their integrity is just as suspect as Putin's.

Do you have no shame? Do you not realize how much of a fool you are at this point? You flat out claimed Russian forces weren't involved in the Crimea take over, then when half a dozen people link you to PUTIN HIMSELF admitting they were Russian regulars, you move the goal posts and try and deflect about "biased western media."

Please. Your credibility on this is nil. Quit while you're not too far behind.

 

[cabri]

^ This post is still important. Thus far no one has brought us evidence, or even claims, that "Russian forces" have advanced forward past Crimea. Still waiting for the OP to back up the topic title.

And it was also stated that there were no Russian Forces in Crimea. Until it was admitted after the fact by the man himself.

The coordination of the "militia" and the weapons being used should raise questions about their origin. Home grown militia do not pickup anti-air weapons at the local corner store.

Where in Iraq were anti-air weapons being used by the different groups.
Those are not manufactured commercially, but for military use and supplied via military/government channels.

Being used in Ukraine indicated that they either came from military units or were supplied by Russia.

 

[theeedude]

And it was also stated that there were no Russian Forces in Crimea. Until it was admitted after the fact by the man himself.

The coordination of the "militia" and the weapons being used should raise questions about their origin. Home grown militia do not pickup anti-air weapons at the local corner store.

Where in Iraq were anti-air weapons being used by the different groups.
Those are not manufactured commercially, but for military use and supplied via military/government channels.

Being used in Ukraine indicated that they either came from military units or were supplied by Russia.

Russian Forces were in Crimea for 300 years. Their fleet is based there.

 

[zanejohnson]

Russian Forces were in Crimea for 300 years. Their fleet is based there.

we are way past this.

yes the BLACKSEA FLEET IS THERE AND HAS BEEN THERE.

we're talking about russian special ops forces, who have been there for one year, with a plan to do exactly what they just did.... destabilize Crimea, and then the east.. which will allow putin to move in with an "anti terrorist" action............. that he created...

they took a play right from the United states playbook didn't they.

 

[Jhhnn]

Seriously?! Every news story that has been published about this since the 4 hour public telecast where he admitted that the 'little green men' in Crimea were Russian troops is a lie?

Damn, who would have thought that the world's media would be stupid enough to lie about something in the public record.

And you couldn't bother to take 30 seconds to google it?

Pathetic. Have you now become part of the Russian version of Hasbara?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8AMsRx2jjY

That link doesn't say what you think it says. Russia did have troops in the Crimea the whole while, at leased bases. As Putin offered, they behaved professionally. His comments address that just as easily as do western accusations about the little green men.

Clearly, Ukraine was an administrative zone of the Russian Empire & the USSR for a very long time prior to independence. For the purposes at the time, the idea that it would ever be a cohesive separate nation didn't matter, because Moscow didn't take any shit from Ukrainians or Russian speakers, either. It was an administrative convenience. Independence was granted w/o any real consideration about the divisions that existed.

The overthrow of the Kiev govt & many of the parties responsible make the ethnic Russians extremely uneasy, for obvious reasons. And, let's face it, the new govt is a mess. The pictures of Ukrainian police standing around while armed protesters battle it out in Odessa should show us that. They are unable or unwilling to actually run the country, particularly in a way where ethnic Russians feel protected. I suspect they've been unhappy all along, and all of this gives them the chance to return to what they see as the protection of the Russian Federation, as in Crimea.

The notion that this is all Putin's fault is absurd. If he's exploiting unrest at this point it's no different than what the Right Front & other extremely right wing Ukrainian militias are doing themselves- taking advantage of an incompetent govt that lacks a true mandate from the people.

Putin received that mandate from Crimea, and likely will do the same in eastern Ukraine unless Ukrainians can come to terms with each other. In the absence of that, when the dust settles & realistic borders are sorted out it'll be better for all of 'em.

Hopefully none of that will involve a great deal of violence or large population migration. I'm surprised that Ukraine as it existed at independence has lasted as long as it has.

Don't like that? Hate to see the Russians "win" because we never had a winning hand at all? WTF are we gonna do about it- posture, or start WW3?

 

[Victorian Gray]

blah fucking blah fucking blah

Shilling for Putin. Sad.

The Russians learned their lessons well watching (and helping) the Serbs when they were carving up Bosnia.

Same shit, different toilet.