So now the big 3 want $50B. Apparently $25B is not enough.

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StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: ricochet
Some of that 700B to Wall St should have gone to bail out the big 3. If they go under imagine the sh!t storm that is Michigan.
Obama promised the UAW. They aren't going under, sadly.
Maybe he can break that promise :)

 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
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Originally posted by: blahblah99
I can't believe how long these three companies are still able to survive. They should just die already. Spend the $50B on new American car companies.
That sounds simple. Have you got a plan on how to do that? I know that making cars is very easy.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
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So, if Chrysler goes under in March, what happens to me leased car due back in April? :confused:
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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Originally posted by: CPA
So, if Chrysler goes under in March, what happens to me leased car due back in April? :confused:

It's owned by the leaseholder. I would most certainly think they're going to want it.

 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
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Originally posted by: Tab
Wait a minute, if GM went bankrupt who would pay all the pensions for their retired employees?
The taxpayers of the US.

http://www.pbgc.gov/

You'll read that they receive no monies from taxpayers, but my understanding is that they are bankrupt or nearly bankrupt. Clearly a bailout would be necessary. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Edit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/...2/AR2008102202554.html
More information. They ended 2007 with a $14 Billion deficit. They are projecting a $10 to $12 Billion deficit for 2008. They go on to say that "We have enough to cover our obligations." Curious statement to make. It's obvious they are a government agency. Only the government could say that they are broke but have enough money.

 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,274
19,922
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The way I heard it being sold last night was- Worst case scenario, 100% of U.S. operations shutdown, also effecting suppliers, etc. It would mean 2.5 million jobs, and 60 billion in annual tax revenue lost.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
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Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
The way I heard it being sold last night was- Worst case scenario, 100% of U.S. operations shutdown, also effecting suppliers, etc. It would mean 2.5 million jobs, and 60 billion in annual tax revenue lost.
In addition, as I have pointed out before, the survivability of the transplants would very much be in question because their US suppliers would not be able to keep their doors open.

It's all a moot point anyway, because Obama has committed to do what is necessary to keep them alive.

This is another one of those topics that is never going to go away here. Let the whiners here keep whining.


 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: CPA
So, if Chrysler goes under in March, what happens to me leased car due back in April? :confused:

It's owned by the leaseholder. I would most certainly think they're going to want it.
Why, who wants a chrysler? :0

Really, though, the tax payer if it's going to hold these pensions, isn't that what it's doing throwing money at these rotten behemoths? We need to just bite the bullet and pay them if we're legally compelled to. No point in putting it off. With the rate these stinkers are burning through cash $50B will be flushed down the damn toilet in a couple of years anyway and we're still looking at companies that haven't turned a profit since the discovery the earth was round.
Worst case scenario, 100% of U.S. operations shutdown, also effecting suppliers, etc. It would mean 2.5 million jobs, and 60 billion in annual tax revenue lost.
And worse case scenario with me driving home in the rain is I spin out of control knocking a school bus off a cliff and 50 kid die so I shouldn't drive home in the rain, but realistically that won't happen. If there is anything good from these rotten apples, other companies will buy that up. Maybe the $25-50B should be just used as a graceful shut down to aid their bankruptcy and fashion the business components into sections that are purchaseable by better companies.
t's all a moot point anyway, because Obama has committed to do what is necessary to keep them alive.

This is another one of those topics that is never going to go away here. Let the whiners here keep whining.
Well, we know where you stand. No cost is too much to prop these carcuses up and, like Weekend at Bernie's, pretend they are something other than dead.
 

Rustler

Golden Member
Jan 14, 2004
1,253
1
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Now its up to 75 Billion and bein Pres Obama is beholding to the unions................you want some mo money..................here you go....................................................
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
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$2,000 Billion for Wall Street, zero for auto makers losing their ass to foreign companies?
America needs to embrace the concept of globalization...there is no such thing as a foreign company anymore...Honda, Toyota and BMW all have production facilities in America, and employ American workers.

The Big Three cannot achieve profitability because they have an antiquated and hostile management model for dealing with the unions, the UAW is willing to fight tooth and nail for short term gains and their product offerings are out of synch with market demand...foreign companies are able to adjust better to changes in the market because they have business models that can rapidly push concepts from prototype to production...the Big Three are too big and not able to shift strategy quickly.

Now its up to 75 Billion and bein Pres Obama is beholding to the unions................you want some mo money..................here you go....................................................
Yes, corporate welfare suddenly becomes pallatable to Democrats when it comes time to protect union workers.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: CPA
So, if Chrysler goes under in March, what happens to me leased car due back in April? :confused:

It's owned by the leaseholder. I would most certainly think they're going to want it.
Why, who wants a chrysler? :0

Really, though, the tax payer if it's going to hold these pensions, isn't that what it's doing throwing money at these rotten behemoths? We need to just bite the bullet and pay them if we're legally compelled to. No point in putting it off. With the rate these stinkers are burning through cash $50B will be flushed down the damn toilet in a couple of years anyway and we're still looking at companies that haven't turned a profit since the discovery the earth was round.
Worst case scenario, 100% of U.S. operations shutdown, also effecting suppliers, etc. It would mean 2.5 million jobs, and 60 billion in annual tax revenue lost.
And worse case scenario with me driving home in the rain is I spin out of control knocking a school bus off a cliff and 50 kid die so I shouldn't drive home in the rain, but realistically that won't happen. If there is anything good from these rotten apples, other companies will buy that up. Maybe the $25-50B should be just used as a graceful shut down to aid their bankruptcy and fashion the business components into sections that are purchaseable by better companies.
t's all a moot point anyway, because Obama has committed to do what is necessary to keep them alive.

This is another one of those topics that is never going to go away here. Let the whiners here keep whining.
Well, we know where you stand. No cost is too much to prop these carcuses up and, like Weekend at Bernie's, pretend they are something other than dead.
Skoorb, are you a Canadian citizen?

I already know the answer. You don't hide it, it's in your sig.

First, quit with the we, we, we shit. You're not a citizen of this country. You should have zero vested interest in anything that is going on in this country because, did I mention, you're not a citizen of the United States of America!

I've been putting up with all your left-leaning posts here, your posts about OUR elections. I've been putting up with your hard-on against the auto companies too. Frankly, it's none of your fucking business!

How we spend our money is none of your business. Who we do or don't put in the White House is none of your business. Our health care woes are none of your business. You're Canadian!!!

If we should ever attack your country, feel free to get involved with our politics and day to day life in whatever manner you choose.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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One way or another we in the USA are gonna pay.

If they go the bankruptcy route, their suppliers and creditors pay.

The PBG Corp will have to pick up pension costs.

So many people unemployed meaing fed/state unemployment benefits, welfare, food stamps, medicaid picks up health care etc. The fed & state don't get the income tax on the employees' wages etc.

No jobs, no mortgage payments. Housing values decline, real estate taxes collections drop. More bad mortgages? Derivitives/mortgaged back securities plunge further, more money requested from banks/financial institutions. The fed gov's investment is those products (recent bail-out plan) is lost etc.

The fed gov likely won't gets its earlier loan of $25 billion back.

One way or another, it's gonna cost.

As much as I dislike bailouts, we're screwd.

Seems some Dems here have an irrational hatred of big corporations (otherwise known as employers). All this talk of helping poor people, increasing min wages and other welfare programs etc. I think we already have enough poor people, let's not rush to make more.

Fern
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Originally posted by: boomerang
Skoorb, are you a Canadian citizen?
Yes, but I see where you're going with that question and I'm gonna head you off at the pass: I don't particularly like maple syrup; more of a fan of the cheaper Aunt Jemima kind of stuff :D
As much as I dislike bailouts, we're screwd.
Most can agree on that. The question is whether we all suffer a little bit of pain by indefinitely bailing out the auto companies (because once this starts, good luck shutting that valve) so that a high school grad with no real skills besides having been at a plant for 30 years can make $31/hour or we let them die and those closely related to the companies and living in their areas (*cough* Boomerang :)) suffer the most, but us much less. Unless the worst-case really does happen and the economy spirals severely with their demise, but there's just no way to know, really, so unless somebody really smart (and we're lacking in those people these days) can say convincingly that they ought to be saved because of such and such reason, I at least would be inclined to say they were thrown from the nest and couldn't fly, so that's just a shame.

 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Mermaidman
Originally posted by: Fern
The fed gov likely won't gets its earlier loan of $25 billion back.

Fern
Which loan? By whom, to who?

IIRC, the fed gov alreay loaned them $25B back in September.

Fern
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: Skoorb
link

Big shocker, heck it wasn't long ago at all--a few days--the sane of us said that $25B wasn't going to make a difference and these companies were dead anyway. Now they want $50B? I guess it's like asking your dad for a new bicycle and it only costs $100 and when he brings you to the store you quickly start to try and weasel out of him the $200 version instead.

Despicable, let these companies DIE already.

You obviously don't realize how many people this will effect if this happens.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
Well they are going to get the money. Either now, with pressure from Obama, or in January.
 

sammyunltd

Senior member
Jul 31, 2004
717
0
0
I think letting them die is the best solution in the long-run. Short-run no. The unemployment rate will jump by 1-1.5%, the government will lose some tax revenues, but at least, it's one less burden. Plus, their cars sucked and still suck anyway. Americans don't know how to do cars.

What will happen with NASCAR (made of Toyota, Dodge and Chevy)? It's good it is dies as well. It's a waste of gasoline and rubber.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
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Waste of money.

They need to declare bankruptcy, ditch the union contracts and start over.

It is the legacy union contract that is killing them. WAY to much of their money is going to former employees and until they figure out a way to solve this problem no amount of money will help them.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Skoorb
link

Big shocker, heck it wasn't long ago at all--a few days--the sane of us said that $25B wasn't going to make a difference and these companies were dead anyway. Now they want $50B? I guess it's like asking your dad for a new bicycle and it only costs $100 and when he brings you to the store you quickly start to try and weasel out of him the $200 version instead.

Despicable, let these companies DIE already.

You obviously don't realize how many people this will effect if this happens.

2 thing. first even if the big3 dies, they will get bought out by Japaneses, Korean and European car makers in pieces. Their operations will get consolidated. Not all employees, suppliers will lose their job. Many will, true, but not all job will disappear.

second, you need to make up your mind if we are a socialist country or not. If we were, we might as well nationalize every companies with tax money and supply every one with a job and nice fat salary so everyone is gonna be happy.
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
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Exactly. Foreign companies will move in. If companies can't survive on their own, taxpayers shouldn't keep these dinosaurs around nationalizing every business that might fail.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
The problem with GM bankruptcy is that the government will have to take over their pension obligations, which will probably cost more than bailing them out, in addition to causing a lot more people to get laid off.

Long term Pension obligations are likely over 100 billion.


 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
BTW I don't think the big 3 will completely die.

They will most likely be broken up into the parts that work and the parts that don't will be ditched.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,651
2,395
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Remember that throwing Lehman Brothers into bankruptcy court instead of bailing them out was most likely the principal cause of the credit crunch and stock market collapse. The expenses of those two are multiple times whatever the bailout cost is.

That said, Ford and GM put out some pretty stunning numbers today. They are are burning through TWO BILLION a month (I think that's something like $3,000,000 per hour) and GM will be out of money by this spring if things don't change. Ford has been re-rated today-the are now junk bond level, fifth from the lowest.

A bailout is probably a necessary evil, but I'd like to see: (1) the current shareholders get screwed, just like for FNMA and Freddie Mac and (2) a drastic and immediate pruning of the companies, including benefits. Their health care plans are ridiculously gold plated. GM could drop at least half its model lines.