So my car threw a metric ton of codes yesterday...

[alkalinetaupehat]

...and it's American. Poor metric vs. imperial jokes aside, a 60 mile trip yesterday netted me a check engine light about 10 min into the drive and continuing for about 20 minutes.

Thinking it could be a remnant code from before the O2 was replaced Friday, I drove the rest of the trip without incident. The A/C does not currently work either, which is weird since it was recharged about 1.5 years ago. After this trip I parked the car and went about my day, eventually driving it to the parts store to get the codes read. The list is as follows:

1993 Cutlass Ciera 3.3L w/98k

Codes + Meaning:

History Code 22 - Throttle Position Sensor signal - Voltage is too low
History Code 24 - Vehicle Speed Sensor - short circuit
History Code 26 - Quad Driver Module - fault (what?)
History Code 27 - 2nd Gear Switch - problem
History Code 28 - 3rd Gear Switch - problem
History Code 29 - 4th Gear Switch - problem
History Code 31 - Park/Neutral Switch - Circuit problem
History Code 33 - MAF Sensor Signal - Voltage too high
History Code 34 - MAF Sensor Signal - Voltage too low
History Code 39 - Torque Converter Clutch - problem
History Code 48 - Misfire symptom
History Code 49 - Vacuum leak
History Code 51 - ECM PROM Error
Current Code 66 - A/C Pressure Sensor - Circuit problem
Current Code 88 - ECM Reset

So yeah, either my car is about to divide by zero or something is causing the ECU to have a mental breakdown.

There has been a stumbling problem which began a couple weeks before I parked the car for nine months. While the car was parked the fuel was treated with Stabil and the car was ran for 20-30 minutes and moved around a bit every three months or so. Prior to parking the car the A/C did work, but I did have a couple times where there was a Check Engine light when I turned on the A/C. These days ranged from humid and rainy to hot and on the drier side of Michigan weather.

The car still stumbles and idles rougher when cold, but is responsive when warm. Occasionally it shifts rough when dropping down to second from third.

I suspect that a problem in the A/C system is causing feedback in the QDM, which in turn is funking with the ECU and causing codes. The 3300 series is known for idling a little bit rough because it's derived from 90-degree V8 blocks, and does have issues with MAF sensors. So if I can't figure out something that unifies all this, my plan of attack is to look at the AC assembly and instrumentation to pinpoint the problem and then repair that. I also need to look at the QDM and ECU for damage, they are about $50 each to replace with used parts. The MAF is also probably being replaced, iirc it's $20-$30 new.

I'm looking for some other opinions or options, as well as commentary on my thoughts so far. Additionally two friends are offloading their cars because of upgrades. I may simply purchase either of the cars instead if the repairs are too much.


Cliffs:
Car stumbles when cold and threw a list of codes yesterday
A/C doesn't work either
Want to fix car, help?


Some information I have looked up:

Code 26 meaning -
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-284.html

More on the QDM -
http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/quaddriver.shtml

Ebay listing on new ECU -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1619...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

 

[amdhunter]

Battery is low? Alt going out? I think low voltage can freak out all sorts of systems.

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

Battery is low? Alt going out? I think low voltage can freak out all sorts of systems.

The alternator was replaced about two years ago, though the battery is about three years old and I do have a 200w amp hooked up to some subs in my car.

 

[CrackRabbit]

I'd say you have an electrical issue, something grounding out possibly. Or your ECU is toast. History Code 51 - ECM PROM Error is not a good sign at all.
Test your battery's voltage, when off and when running and check the connector from the wiring harness to the ECU for corrosion or damage.

 

[obamanation]

get a battery charger and charge that sucker up! I have a friend with an LS430 and the same shit happened when the battery in their car got discharged. We recharged the battery with a battery charger and all was well.

 

[Colt45]

Yeah, that many codes makes me think it's the ECU or charging system, but do charge the battery first. Make sure the ECU's ground connection is good too... one of my cars had some corrosion where the ecu's ground wire was connected to the chassis, and it caused all sorts of errors and rough running.

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

Score for AT Garage!

Hooked up the battery charger and the battery was about 50% charged. Going to see what happens after this, including the suggestions posted so far.

 

[obamanation]

Score for AT Garage!

Hooked up the battery charger and the battery was about 50% charged. Going to see what happens after this, including the suggestions posted so far.

How many volts is the battery? When you test for battery voltage, first charge the battery till its full, then take off the "surface charge" by running the headlights with the car off for like 5 minutes. Then disconnect everything from the battery and check the voltage 12 hours later. This is suppose to be the most accurate way to assess battery voltage and battery voltage=State of charge (SOC).

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

Just to clarify, I can use my multimeter to check the voltage, right? It has 10A fused and 400mA fused circuits on it and I know the battery flows an order of magnitude x4-ish greater amperage.

 

[LordMorpheus]

Just to clarify, I can use my multimeter to check the voltage, right? It has 10A fused and 400mA fused circuits on it and I know the battery flows an order of magnitude x4-ish greater amperage.

a multimeter set to measure voltage should have super high resistance - you won't have a problem with the fuses, just use your cigarette lighter socket.

You should see 12.x when off and 13-14.x when running. Might be a good idea to have autozone or advance check your alternator, because a bad alternator can still give you voltages that look good.

You said your alternator is 2 years old. I had a rebuilt Duralast last less than a year (replacement was free, but it'll probably quit before too long also ... but then I'll replace it for free, too).

If it's a short, good luck tracking it down. You'd want to use one of those multimeters that has a big clip you can put around a wire and measure the current (edit: apparently this is called a clamp meter, you'll want one that measures DC current). Starting at your battery cable, you should be able to track down where the short is. Probably won't be a whole lot of fun.

 

[LTC8K6]

The multimeter, when set on DC volts, will draw only a minute amount of current when you use it to check the battery voltage.

 

[LTC8K6]

What you may have is a bad diode in the alternator. This will introduce some AC ripple, which can cause all sorts of gremlins.

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

I charged the battery fully and started the car. Idles much nicer and most of the hesitation is gone, but there's still some throughout the rev range and the car is shifting at higher RPMs than normal. Also, tested the A/C and while it doesn't seem to work still (It was in the 70's...), there wasn't a check engine light for the next ten minutes of driving.

Going to check the alt and battery tomorrow and probably check the connections on the battery. If these things don't take care of it I'll start tracking down potential shorts.

 

[sandorski]

Just had a Sensor replaced, then Electrical problems show up. Hmmm, I'm no Mechanic, but I'd check any Wiring or other connections(alternator Belt too) around any areas where the Work had been done. Perhaps the Low Battery was caused by them working on the Car with the Doors open, causing Lights to be on for an extended period?

I dunno, is the Problem ongoing or just the High RPM Shift and other stuff noted? Those could have been "hidden" by the poor O2 Sensor, perhaps the way it used to behave and you just forgot about it. Also, you might be Driving differently due to these issues causing you Worry. Cars pretty old though, so it could be all sorts of small things adding up, possibly big things too, like Gaskets/Seals.

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

Just had a Sensor replaced, then Electrical problems show up. Hmmm, I'm no Mechanic, but I'd check any Wiring or other connections(alternator Belt too) around any areas where the Work had been done. Perhaps the Low Battery was caused by them working on the Car with the Doors open, causing Lights to be on for an extended period?

I dunno, is the Problem ongoing or just the High RPM Shift and other stuff noted? Those could have been "hidden" by the poor O2 Sensor, perhaps the way it used to behave and you just forgot about it. Also, you might be Driving differently due to these issues causing you Worry. Cars pretty old though, so it could be all sorts of small things adding up, possibly big things too, like Gaskets/Seals.

The main issue at hand is the engine hesitation, followed by the fact that the A/C isn't functional.

The hesitation was very present before I parked the car and was quickly bringing my car to the edge of drivability. Replacing the O2 sensor was prompted by a Check Engine light from over a month ago which yielded an O2 sensor out-of-range code. A brake line gave out and I am not financially well-off, so the more immediate fixing of the brakes was taken care of as well as (thankfully) extra work obligations, and then finding the time to bleed the brakes and deal with 17 year-old bleeder screws. Fast-forward to this past Saturday, and the CEL et cetera occur and here we are.

The brake line repairs and O2 sensor installation were done by myself, and only the hood was open during the 15-minute swap for the O2 sensor (warm headers make slow work). Though now that you bring it up, I do apply throttle differently and anticipate slower merges and other maneuvers, so I do have an altered perspective on my car's responsiveness.

Also as an aside, I enjoy my music with plenty of low-end, so the amplifier in my car gets a good workout & therefore the battery does too. The battery may be on the list of things to replace, alongside the driver's door.

 

[sandorski]

The main issue at hand is the engine hesitation, followed by the fact that the A/C isn't functional.

The hesitation was very present before I parked the car and was quickly bringing my car to the edge of drivability. Replacing the O2 sensor was prompted by a Check Engine light from over a month ago which yielded an O2 sensor out-of-range code. A brake line gave out and I am not financially well-off, so the more immediate fixing of the brakes was taken care of as well as (thankfully) extra work obligations, and then finding the time to bleed the brakes and deal with 17 year-old bleeder screws. Fast-forward to this past Saturday, and the CEL et cetera occur and here we are.

The brake line repairs and O2 sensor installation were done by myself, and only the hood was open during the 15-minute swap for the O2 sensor (warm headers make slow work). Though now that you bring it up, I do apply throttle differently and anticipate slower merges and other maneuvers, so I do have an altered perspective on my car's responsiveness.

Also as an aside, I enjoy my music with plenty of low-end, so the amplifier in my car gets a good workout & therefore the battery does too. The battery may be on the list of things to replace, alongside the driver's door.

hmm, don't many Audio heads upgrade to stronger Alternators? Just musing that the Alternator could be dying out due to high current load or some such.

I dunno, I'm really speaking beyond my experience/knowledge here.

 

[obamanation]

hmm, don't many Audio heads upgrade to stronger Alternators? Just musing that the Alternator could be dying out due to high current load or some such.

I dunno, I'm really speaking beyond my experience/knowledge here.

I was just going to suggest this.. The battery is probably fine but what isn't fine is what is happening to the alternator which is either going to die or has died already.

 

[kornphlake]

You need to step back and decide what the real symptoms are. OBD I codes are not really useful, it looks like one problem is causing a domino effect. It looks like a voltage problem, but that wouldn't affect the other problems you describe.

1) The AC doesn't work. This is a system that has virtually no impact on the operation of the drive train. Unless the malfunction in the AC is causing the engine to overheat I don't see how this could be related. AC systems are fairly simple, however having it worked on a few years ago is irrelevant, especially with a car this old. I suspect the hoses are rotted and the refrigerant has leaked out, but it could be a bad compressor, or a leak elsewhere in the system. I believe modern refrigerants are injected with a UV dye that will glow under a black light, a shop should be able to quickly determine if there was a leak and give a quote for repair.

2) The car hesitates. Start with the basics, check vacuum lines, at 17 years old the rubber hoses probably aren't in good condition. Next look at your ignition system, check the distributor cap and rotor, spark plugs and wires and the ignition coil. How about fuel delivery, do you have the correct pressure in the fuel line, is the filter restricting flow, is there a strainer in the gas tank that is dirty and clogged?

Take the car to a mechanic if you're not sure how to assess the condition of the basic systems of the vehicle. Everything should be tested as working or not, don't throw parts at the problem and expect it to go away. You have to replace the broken parts to fix the problem.

 

[CraigRT]

I'd say just get another battery and keep driving, if it stays good, you're good.

A 200W amp is nothing. I run 2 amps in my car (one 4 channel and 1 2 channel bridged for the sub) and its no issue at all on a stock alternator and standard Napa battery.

 

[alkalinetaupehat]

As a part of my car's normal operation, the radiator fan kicks on when the A/C is engaged. I tried the A/C today and noticed that the fan did not spin up at all. It is very easy to hear the fan, and I did hear it while driving today in fact. So I have more information backing a short in the system somewhere.

The spark plugs and wires were replaced in May, so I doubt they specifically are the source of a problem. I do know that the fuel filter was last replaced two years ago and based on the maintenance records is due roughly every two years.

This car uses three distro caps for some reason, so I will check those. I'm also going to recheck the charge on the battery, I kept the stereo off today so I can see the level it's at.

I can assess the condition of parts, I just need guidance when it comes to what system to start at. And so far the only parts I've "thrown at it" are a brake line and an O2 sensor, both of which were clearly issues. The CEL which led to an O2 sensor threw only an O2 sensor code, and we were at the point in diagnosis where it was likely the MAF or O2.

 

[LTC8K6]

This car uses three distro caps for some reason

Sounds like coil packs. One coil per cylinder pair.

Which would mean you have no distributor at all.

 

[randaman]

please Tell me what you figured out My car has the exact same codes. I know it's been a while but please help

 

[randaman]

...and it's American. Poor metric vs. imperial jokes aside, a 60 mile trip yesterday netted me a check engine light about 10 min into the drive and continuing for about 20 minutes.

Thinking it could be a remnant code from before the O2 was replaced Friday, I drove the rest of the trip without incident. The A/C does not currently work either, which is weird since it was recharged about 1.5 years ago. After this trip I parked the car and went about my day, eventually driving it to the parts store to get the codes read. The list is as follows:

1993 Cutlass Ciera 3.3L w/98k

Codes + Meaning:

History Code 22 - Throttle Position Sensor signal - Voltage is too low
History Code 24 - Vehicle Speed Sensor - short circuit
History Code 26 - Quad Driver Module - fault (what?)
History Code 27 - 2nd Gear Switch - problem
History Code 28 - 3rd Gear Switch - problem
History Code 29 - 4th Gear Switch - problem
History Code 31 - Park/Neutral Switch - Circuit problem
History Code 33 - MAF Sensor Signal - Voltage too high
History Code 34 - MAF Sensor Signal - Voltage too low
History Code 39 - Torque Converter Clutch - problem
History Code 48 - Misfire symptom
History Code 49 - Vacuum leak
History Code 51 - ECM PROM Error
Current Code 66 - A/C Pressure Sensor - Circuit problem
Current Code 88 - ECM Reset

So yeah, either my car is about to divide by zero or something is causing the ECU to have a mental breakdown.

There has been a stumbling problem which began a couple weeks before I parked the car for nine months. While the car was parked the fuel was treated with Stabil and the car was ran for 20-30 minutes and moved around a bit every three months or so. Prior to parking the car the A/C did work, but I did have a couple times where there was a Check Engine light when I turned on the A/C. These days ranged from humid and rainy to hot and on the drier side of Michigan weather.

The car still stumbles and idles rougher when cold, but is responsive when warm. Occasionally it shifts rough when dropping down to second from third.

I suspect that a problem in the A/C system is causing feedback in the QDM, which in turn is funking with the ECU and causing codes. The 3300 series is known for idling a little bit rough because it's derived from 90-degree V8 blocks, and does have issues with MAF sensors. So if I can't figure out something that unifies all this, my plan of attack is to look at the AC assembly and instrumentation to pinpoint the problem and then repair that. I also need to look at the QDM and ECU for damage, they are about $50 each to replace with used parts. The MAF is also probably being replaced, iirc it's $20-$30 new.

I'm looking for some other opinions or options, as well as commentary on my thoughts so far. Additionally two friends are offloading their cars because of upgrades. I may simply purchase either of the cars instead if the repairs are too much.


Cliffs:
Car stumbles when cold and threw a list of codes yesterday
A/C doesn't work either
Want to fix car, help?


Some information I have looked up:

Code 26 meaning -
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-284.html

More on the QDM -
http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/quaddriver.shtml

Ebay listing on new ECU -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1619...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

what did you figure out? I have the same exact issues and I mean the same exact

...and it's American. Poor metric vs. imperial jokes aside, a 60 mile trip yesterday netted me a check engine light about 10 min into the drive and continuing for about 20 minutes.

Thinking it could be a remnant code from before the O2 was replaced Friday, I drove the rest of the trip without incident. The A/C does not currently work either, which is weird since it was recharged about 1.5 years ago. After this trip I parked the car and went about my day, eventually driving it to the parts store to get the codes read. The list is as follows:

1993 Cutlass Ciera 3.3L w/98k

Codes + Meaning:

History Code 22 - Throttle Position Sensor signal - Voltage is too low
History Code 24 - Vehicle Speed Sensor - short circuit
History Code 26 - Quad Driver Module - fault (what?)
History Code 27 - 2nd Gear Switch - problem
History Code 28 - 3rd Gear Switch - problem
History Code 29 - 4th Gear Switch - problem
History Code 31 - Park/Neutral Switch - Circuit problem
History Code 33 - MAF Sensor Signal - Voltage too high
History Code 34 - MAF Sensor Signal - Voltage too low
History Code 39 - Torque Converter Clutch - problem
History Code 48 - Misfire symptom
History Code 49 - Vacuum leak
History Code 51 - ECM PROM Error
Current Code 66 - A/C Pressure Sensor - Circuit problem
Current Code 88 - ECM Reset

So yeah, either my car is about to divide by zero or something is causing the ECU to have a mental breakdown.

There has been a stumbling problem which began a couple weeks before I parked the car for nine months. While the car was parked the fuel was treated with Stabil and the car was ran for 20-30 minutes and moved around a bit every three months or so. Prior to parking the car the A/C did work, but I did have a couple times where there was a Check Engine light when I turned on the A/C. These days ranged from humid and rainy to hot and on the drier side of Michigan weather.

The car still stumbles and idles rougher when cold, but is responsive when warm. Occasionally it shifts rough when dropping down to second from third.

I suspect that a problem in the A/C system is causing feedback in the QDM, which in turn is funking with the ECU and causing codes. The 3300 series is known for idling a little bit rough because it's derived from 90-degree V8 blocks, and does have issues with MAF sensors. So if I can't figure out something that unifies all this, my plan of attack is to look at the AC assembly and instrumentation to pinpoint the problem and then repair that. I also need to look at the QDM and ECU for damage, they are about $50 each to replace with used parts. The MAF is also probably being replaced, iirc it's $20-$30 new.

I'm looking for some other opinions or options, as well as commentary on my thoughts so far. Additionally two friends are offloading their cars because of upgrades. I may simply purchase either of the cars instead if the repairs are too much.


Cliffs:
Car stumbles when cold and threw a list of codes yesterday
A/C doesn't work either
Want to fix car, help?


Some information I have looked up:

Code 26 meaning -
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-284.html

More on the QDM -
http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/quaddriver.shtml

Ebay listing on new ECU -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1619...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

please tell me you figured it out I have the same exact issues and I mean the same exact ones. let me know what you found please

 

[NutBucket]

If you bothered to read the thread the explanation is in there. Since you can't do that, take your car to Pep Boys...

 

[randaman]

If you bothered to read the thread the explanation is in there. Since you can't do that, take your car to Pep Boys...

awe you sound bothered how sweet. what are you doing here anyhow? most mechanics I know act like real men not redacted. But as long as you can garage talk I guess you get to be as feminine as you like redacted.

5 Posts and already making friends, I see. If you can't tell, that is sarcasm.
We do not tolerate homophobic insults, slurs or name calling here.
Enjoy some time off to contemplate your posting style.

Iron Woode
Super Moderator