So my buddy is putting octane booster in his stock (Neon) SRT-4

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: mariok2006

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: mariok2006

Originally posted by: Strk
Why would you want to put more power in a FWD car?

no the question goes back to...why would you buy a neon srt4?

Because for under $20k you have a car that puts down performance numbers that can destroy those costing 2x and 3x as much.

If you are looking for a very potent little performer stock off the lot, for $20k it's hard to go wrong with the SRT-4.

i didnt say it wasnt fast. Its just a horrible looking car and the interior is exactly what i would expect from a neon ...id rather get a mazda 3 and strap a turbo on it...

you asked a question, he answered it... wtf is the problem?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

he drives a neon. you can't possbily take anything he says seriously

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: mariok2006

Originally posted by: Strk
Why would you want to put more power in a FWD car?

no the question goes back to...why would you buy a neon srt4?

Why do we get comments like this... I have a hard time understanding to be honest

For the price, it's really hard to beat the performance you get as well as modding potential. As to why he'd put more power in a FWD car, maybe he simply enjoys it more? Is there a law against that or something?

The SRT4 is a great car for the price IMO.

 

[homestarmy]

Also, for those of you who don't know anything about octane ratings and why what car uses what, let me give a short explanation.

Octane does not give performance. Octane enables the engine to compress the fuel to a higher amount without exploding. Putting in a higher octane without modifying the engine or its behavior (physically or electronically) is just wasting money. Putting in octane too low will cause the octane to explode prematurely causing detonation or "knock". This can hurt an engine, and a knock sensor on most engines will detect this and retard the timing which will make running that octane safer (but lose performance).

So putting higher octane in a car that doesn't require it is not only a waste of money, it is one of the stupidest things a person can do.

 

[homestarmy]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Adds at least 40HP. Gains another 50HP if he has a sticker of the octane booster somewhere on his car.

The Mopar Stage III kit with Turbo Toys has a button for 100 octane versus 93. When you hit taht switch and pump in 100 octane it gains 50hp, from 310hp to 360hp. I dunno if it would do all tha tmuch on a stock engine, though.

That will be a modified map which will be configured for running 100 octane. That is why the power jump is so high.

A stock engine will adjust timing for higher octane gas (and other parameters) if the ECU is worth anything. I don't know about the SRT's ECU, but a Subaru ECU will and mine, in fact, did.

I believe this, especially for the Subaru, but do you have any links to reading on how this works, etc?

I don't see how the engine detects that it is higher octane...

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Strk
Why would you want to put more power in a FWD car?

So you can smoke the front tires! Looks wicked and matches great with a popped collar and pink shirt.

 

[ViviTheMage]

my 1.8t loves 93

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: homestarmy
Also, for those of you who don't know anything about octane ratings and why what car uses what, let me give a short explanation.

Octane does not give performance. Octane enables the engine to compress the fuel to a higher amount without exploding. Putting in a higher octane without modifying the engine or its behavior (physically or electronically) is just wasting money. Putting in octane too low will cause the octane to explode prematurely causing detonation or "knock". This can hurt an engine, and a knock sensor on most engines will detect this and retard the timing which will make running that octane safer (but lose performance).

So putting higher octane in a car that doesn't require it is not only a waste of money, it is one of the stupidest things a person can do.

But his car is Turbocharged, so it is NOT stupid and SHOULD give performance if the GM ECU is any good:

Read the section on 'High Octane Rating'

The high octane rating may benefit your car in one of the following situations:

* You have a high-performance (especially turbo-charged) car designed for high octane fuel.

* Your car has a sophisticated knock sensor (currently found on some high-performance and luxury models) that actively tunes your engine (for example, spark plug timing) to the maximum possible setting before it starts to sense knock. It can therefore take advantage of the higher octane rating, and actually increase the power output of your car.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: homestarmy

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Adds at least 40HP. Gains another 50HP if he has a sticker of the octane booster somewhere on his car.

The Mopar Stage III kit with Turbo Toys has a button for 100 octane versus 93. When you hit taht switch and pump in 100 octane it gains 50hp, from 310hp to 360hp. I dunno if it would do all tha tmuch on a stock engine, though.

That will be a modified map which will be configured for running 100 octane. That is why the power jump is so high.

A stock engine will adjust timing for higher octane gas (and other parameters) if the ECU is worth anything. I don't know about the SRT's ECU, but a Subaru ECU will and mine, in fact, did.

I believe this, especially for the Subaru, but do you have any links to reading on how this works, etc?

I don't see how the engine detects that it is higher octane...

Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

 

[homestarmy]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: mariok2006

Originally posted by: Strk
Why would you want to put more power in a FWD car?

no the question goes back to...why would you buy a neon srt4?

Because for under $20k you have a car that puts down performance numbers that can destroy those costing 2x and 3x as much.

If you are looking for a very potent little performer stock off the lot, for $20k it's hard to go wrong with the SRT-4.

Besides the fact that I generally don't like these domestics, there are just a few reasons why I wouldn't buy it, beyond the looks. All of this is from a short couple of rides in it.

Cheap interior feel
Spongy suspension that made me feel sick
Butt of (at least passenger) seat too narrow
IT'S A NEON!

 

[homestarmy]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
isn't it sorta easy to test with dyno, or speed run with drain refill?

See, we don't have dynos here in the office...

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

Which Subaru do you drive again?

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

Which Subaru do you drive again?

An E46 M3. And I just checked, it has 3 sensors effectively giving one per Cyl. They reside between 1&2, 3&4 and 5&6.

 

[Jfrag Teh Foul]

Just to help clear up some things...

Quoted directly from here...

The first rule of thumb is that higher octane gasoline is not necessarily better for your vehicle.

WHAT IS OCTANE RATING?

Octane, by definition, is the resistance to burn or detonation. The higher the rating, the slower the burn when ignited during the compression burn cycle of the piston. The higher octane allows for better control of burning for high compression engines. So we want to match the correct octane rating of the gasoline to the engine design to ensure complete burning of the gasoline by the engine for maximum fuel economy and clean emissions.

I THOUGHT GASOLINE WITH HIGHER OCTANE REDUCED ENGINE KNOCK?

It did in older engines using carburetors to regulate air/gas mix They cannot as accurately regulate the air/fuel mix going into the engine as a computerized fuel injector. Carburetors need adjustment, as a part of regular maintenance, to keep the air/fuel mix as accurate as possible. So many times, these adjustments were not made regularly causing too much fuel to be mixed with the air. When this happened the gasoline would not burn completely soaking into carbon deposits. This would cause a premature ignition of the gasoline due to the intense heat in the engine cylinder creating "engine knock." When this happened, people would change to the higher octane/slower burning gasoline to resist the premature burn, thus minimizing the knocking problem. And it worked. Good solution.

However, since the middle to late 80?s, engines are designed to use fuel injectors with computers to accurately control the air/fuel mix under all types of temperature and environment concerns. However the accuracy of the fuel injectors and computers is based on using the recommended gasoline for that engine.

Most cars are designed to burn regular unleaded fuels with an octane rating of 87. If the vehicle needs a higher octane rating of 89-93, there is documentation in the owner?s manual, as well as possibly under the fuel gauge and by the fuel fill hole. Usually you will see this rating for high performance engines only.

WHAT IF I PREFER TO USE GASOLINE WITH HIGHER OCTANE RATINGS?

You can, but there are no real benefits, other than the gasoline manufacturers making more money off of you. When you use a fuel with a higher octane rating than your vehicle requires, you can send this unburned fuel into the emissions system. It can also collect in the catalytic converter. When you over stress any system, it can malfunction or not do what it was designed to do properly. In the early 90's, an early warning symptom was a rotten egg smell from the tailpipe. Easy fix, go back to using regular 87 octane gasoline. The rude odor usually disappears after several tanks of gasoline.

DOESN'T HIGHER OCTANE GASOLINE HAVE MORE CLEANING ADDITIVES THAT ARE GOOD FOR MY ENGINE?

No. Government regulations require that all gasoline contain basically the same amount of additives to clean the injectors and valves. The only differences are the type to help create the different octane ratings. All gasoline burns at the same rate, it is the additives that create the different octane ratings for the different types of engines.
Q]

 

[DivideBYZero]

Some interesting text for the OP:

This is the S54 engine, but most modern performance engines will do this:

Knock Control:
The use of Knock Control allows the ECM to further advance the ignition timing under load
for increased torque. This system uses three Knock Sensors located between cylinders 1
& 2, cylinders 3 & 4 and cylinders 5 & 6.

Knock Control is only in affect when the engine temperature is greater than 35 ºC and there
is a load on the engine. This will disregard false signals while idling or from a cold engine.
Based on the firing order, the ECM monitors the Knock Sensors after each ignition for a nor-
mal (low) signal.

If the signal value exceeds the threshold, the ECM identifies the ?knock? and retards the
ignition timing (3º) for that cylinder the next time it is fired.

This process is repeated in 3º increments until the knock ceases. The ignition timing will be
advanced again in increments right up to the knock limit and maintain the timing at that
point.

If a fault is detected with the Knock Sensor(s) or circuits, the ECM deactivates Knock
Control. The ?Malfunction Indicator Light? will be illuminated, the ignition timing will be set
to a conservative basic setting (to reduce the risk of detonation) and a fault will be stored

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

Which Subaru do you drive again?

An E46 M3. And I just checked, it has 3 sensors effectively giving one per Cyl. They reside between 1&2, 3&4 and 5&6.

I thought you said you had a Subaru that did that?

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Jfrag Teh Foul
Just to help clear up some things...

Quoted directly from here...

The first rule of thumb is that higher octane gasoline is not necessarily better for your vehicle.

WHAT IS OCTANE RATING?

Octane, by definition, is the resistance to burn or detonation. The higher the rating, the slower the burn when ignited during the compression burn cycle of the piston. The higher octane allows for better control of burning for high compression engines. So we want to match the correct octane rating of the gasoline to the engine design to ensure complete burning of the gasoline by the engine for maximum fuel economy and clean emissions.

I THOUGHT GASOLINE WITH HIGHER OCTANE REDUCED ENGINE KNOCK?

It did in older engines using carburetors to regulate air/gas mix They cannot as accurately regulate the air/fuel mix going into the engine as a computerized fuel injector. Carburetors need adjustment, as a part of regular maintenance, to keep the air/fuel mix as accurate as possible. So many times, these adjustments were not made regularly causing too much fuel to be mixed with the air. When this happened the gasoline would not burn completely soaking into carbon deposits. This would cause a premature ignition of the gasoline due to the intense heat in the engine cylinder creating "engine knock." When this happened, people would change to the higher octane/slower burning gasoline to resist the premature burn, thus minimizing the knocking problem. And it worked. Good solution.

However, since the middle to late 80?s, engines are designed to use fuel injectors with computers to accurately control the air/fuel mix under all types of temperature and environment concerns. However the accuracy of the fuel injectors and computers is based on using the recommended gasoline for that engine.

Most cars are designed to burn regular unleaded fuels with an octane rating of 87. If the vehicle needs a higher octane rating of 89-93, there is documentation in the owner?s manual, as well as possibly under the fuel gauge and by the fuel fill hole. Usually you will see this rating for high performance engines only.

WHAT IF I PREFER TO USE GASOLINE WITH HIGHER OCTANE RATINGS?

You can, but there are no real benefits, other than the gasoline manufacturers making more money off of you. When you use a fuel with a higher octane rating than your vehicle requires, you can send this unburned fuel into the emissions system. It can also collect in the catalytic converter. When you over stress any system, it can malfunction or not do what it was designed to do properly. In the early 90's, an early warning symptom was a rotten egg smell from the tailpipe. Easy fix, go back to using regular 87 octane gasoline. The rude odor usually disappears after several tanks of gasoline.

DOESN'T HIGHER OCTANE GASOLINE HAVE MORE CLEANING ADDITIVES THAT ARE GOOD FOR MY ENGINE?

No. Government regulations require that all gasoline contain basically the same amount of additives to clean the injectors and valves. The only differences are the type to help create the different octane ratings. All gasoline burns at the same rate, it is the additives that create the different octane ratings for the different types of engines.
Q]

Nice FUD right there.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

Which Subaru do you drive again?

An E46 M3. And I just checked, it has 3 sensors effectively giving one per Cyl. They reside between 1&2, 3&4 and 5&6.

I thought you said you had a Subaru that did that?

I said I had a Subaru that showed a dyno proven power improvement whilst using High octane fuel.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

Which Subaru do you drive again?

An E46 M3. And I just checked, it has 3 sensors effectively giving one per Cyl. They reside between 1&2, 3&4 and 5&6.

I thought you said you had a Subaru that did that?

I said I had a Subaru that showed a dyno proven power improvement whilst using High octane fuel.

Which one was that?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Octane boosters really only raise octane by a couple of tenths. A bottle of octane booster in a normal tank og 93 octane fuel will raise the octane all the way to 93.3. To really raise the octane, you'd want to mix 20% tolulene in with the gasoline. That would raise the octane of a tank of 93 to about 95.5.

Off-the-shelf octane boosters will not raise the octane enough for there to be a big difference.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: BobDaMenkey
He could infact get a slight difference, but I doubt it's anything worth the money he's spending on Octane boosters. He should just buy paint thinner, and add a gallon to each tank before he fills up.

(Google it, you'll eventually find a site of a guy that had a Porche and figured this out)

NOT just any paint thinner. You need pure tolulene. Most paint thinner is turpentine which is NOT good to put into an engine. Tolulene is typically only available at factory outlets or places where professional painters shop.

ZV

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

Which Subaru do you drive again?

An E46 M3. And I just checked, it has 3 sensors effectively giving one per Cyl. They reside between 1&2, 3&4 and 5&6.

I thought you said you had a Subaru that did that?

I said I had a Subaru that showed a dyno proven power improvement whilst using High octane fuel.

Which one was that?

Which type of Subaru? It was this one.

 

[CVSiN]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Even if it did make a marginal impact on performance, I have trouble beleiving that most people can even notice a difference between 220HP and 210HP. It's largely mental.

guess I dont classify as "most people" cause i can sure as hell feel a 20 hp diff in a vehicle..

thats the difference between putting an offroad high flow exhaust on a 5.0 stang vs runnning the clogged 4 cat system
and there isnt a Ford owner here that wont say thats a huge differnce..

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Decent ECU's adjust timing UNTIL knock is detected, then roll it back until it ceases. Thus extracting max power from the available fuel.

IIRC my car has a knock sensor for each cylinder!!

Which Subaru do you drive again?

An E46 M3. And I just checked, it has 3 sensors effectively giving one per Cyl. They reside between 1&2, 3&4 and 5&6.

I thought you said you had a Subaru that did that?

I said I had a Subaru that showed a dyno proven power improvement whilst using High octane fuel.

Which one was that?

Which type of Subaru? It was this one.

Gotcha, thanks

 

[j00fek]

why would you waste any form of ca$h on a fvcking DODGE NEON