Affirmative action, my ass. Maybe someone wise has finally decided that people get hired on their qualifications to do the job, rather than the color of their skin. :roll:
I'm white, but if I interview you, and you happen to be black, but have the right qualifications, I will hire you on that merit alone, where an unqualified white guy, is not gonna get the job.
I think it's time for this A.A. bs to end.
I'm white, but if I interview you, and you happen to be black, but have the right qualifications, I will hire you on that merit alone, where an unqualified white guy, is not gonna get the job.
I think it's time for this A.A. bs to end.
I think you must be joking if you dont : "see how people can get the shaft." Black people have never been held at the same standard as whites. Anyone that has went to college or studied the subject should have learned the why's, reasons, and history behind this. I would think only really uneducated person would think that they can be on the same lvl in 2006. Studies in multiple states (one in NYC) showed that whites with felonies had a better chance of getting entry lvl jobs that black folks with no criminal record....That was only last year. Google It. (how would you or anyone explain or apologize for this?). How did A.A. help with these people?? I am not sure that A.A. has a place in todays world. I can argue against it and for it. But to think people are being hired by merit alone is foolish. There are all kind of things that come into play, even things such as Good Looks.
Simple question: How many people do you know in any place of employment (your own, or those you have dealt with) that are ill qualified for their job? Unqualified folks are a dime a dozen, its not that simple as merit. Ask any HR rep. Most people dont interview for jobs they are not qualified for. I have worked in HR. Why would I as an HR rep call in a person that is unqualified after seeing their application or resume?
As an American I have read 10's of thousands of pages on Africa, the history of Africa, the goverments, colonialism, why they are poor...ETC. I enjoy the knowledge so i know WHY Sudan has killed 400000 people in Darfur, Why Somalia hasnt had a real Govt for over 10 years and Why Ethiopia survied the scramble for Africa. I know the history behind those events. So do the people in those places. I was born in America and i know why black people are at an disatvantage in 2006 and WHY A.A. was created in the first place. And why people are not given jobs soley on merit. It takes education or research to get into the gritty details but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to skim the surface. People act as if they are so uneducated when it comes to this, even though they were born in America. Its not as simple as people ill qualified folks getting jobs based on race. That is simpleton brain think - Example:
1. Africans are poor because they are lazy, why cant they "grow" food?
2. "Lazy Slave"
I would love to see the research behind this to see what kind of projections they think will occur. I would also like to see a folow up study to see the status of the move, positive/negative? This is something that would take years to study and would be a white paper that could span hundeds of pages long. I would read it. I do think this information will be missing though, this is the problem. If it is a good move i doubt we will know. It not a simple yes or no thing. Most things, expecially race in America are complicated. Anyone that went to high school should know that
-Pardon grammar and spelling.
:laugh:
I'd like to see steps taken to prevent applicants from getting into my alma simply because their parents attended. But no one talks about legacy: affirmative action for overprivileged, underqualified white kids.
If this is true one has to step back and look at the entire picture of affirmative action.
Has it raised the avg standard of living of the people it was designed to help?
Has it generated a feeling of resentment and racism in people?
When looking at those two issues, is it worth it?
halik
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2000
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Honestly i think the measure was made to address a problem that revolves around race, not wealth. The problem wasn't that umich had few poor people, the issue was that the university was predominantly white.
I dont see they will adress a race-based problem using a income-based solution.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
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You can't fight racism with racism, you can't fight intolerance with intolerance.
But the real issue is, in 40 years, has AA worked? Obviously not. So what is it with the people who always cling to something that doesn't work? That's not progressive, that's not liberal, that's just plain stupid insanity. If one way doesn't work, you find a new way.
But the real issue is, in 40 years, has AA worked? Obviously not. So what is it with the people who always cling to something that doesn't work? That's not progressive, that's not liberal, that's just plain stupid insanity. If one way doesn't work, you find a new way.
who said it has not worked? How would we measure that? Who would create the criteria, those for it or those against it? You cant go off what you think. We need data and lots of it.
WOW - So you think - Affirmative Action would be the SOLE indicator in the reduction of poverty within the African American community? I dont really want to make personal attacks but this is the "simpleton brain think" i was talking about.
-Look at the wages of ALL AMERICANS and how they have changed in the last 35 or so years (approx time since A.A started)
-Look at the decline in manufacturing in the past 40 years.
-Look at the Crack, AIDS and even gang epidemics in black communites starting in the 80's.
-Look at the dot com boom and bust, and tech jobs going overseas.
-Also pay attention to low wage jobs being taken up by illegal immigrants.
-Look at China.
But to you none off this matters. You dont want to pay attention to the actual details. You think the entire 35+ year adventure can reviewed, studied, and its effectiveness evaluated in ONE SENTENCE. This is what i am amazed at. I never finished college, but this is the type of stuff that they teach you while your there. I am 26 years old and i assume that you are my age or older. You should know nothing is that simple.
What exactly do you know about poverty? What do you know about economics?? Do you read books about this? I do........for fun. I can almost guarantee you i know more than you on subjects such as this. And if it didnt work: who's takes the blame and who got the shaft? Would that mean that black people are still "Owed something" because we have had a non-working "program" for 40 years? Has the US Govt "paid its debt"?
I will stop here.
JD50
Lifer
- Sep 4, 2005
- 11,750
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You have given tons of opinions with absolutely no facts to back it up. Can you please link the study that shows that a white person with a felony conviction is more likely to get a job than a black person?
Reverse racism, ie, affirmative action, will not solve anything. All that does is piss of the people that are being discriminated against, in this case, white men. That makes the whole situation worse. Racism is racism, none of it should be tolerated.
Reverse racism, ie, affirmative action, will not solve anything. All that does is piss of the people that are being discriminated against, in this case, white men. That makes the whole situation worse. Racism is racism, none of it should be tolerated.
Affirmitive action is complete bullshit.
Example
My brother scored 33 on his mcat
African American woman scored 28
Brother applied to Hershey and got denied, she applied and got accepted. My brother had higher grades and higher test scores, but because she was african american she got in. I found out about this when my dad had a conversation with the womans mom.
How something like this happens is beyond me, and trust me I'm all for equal rights and everything, but lowering standards for one group and raising them for another is ridiculous.
Go Michigan!
Example
My brother scored 33 on his mcat
African American woman scored 28
Brother applied to Hershey and got denied, she applied and got accepted. My brother had higher grades and higher test scores, but because she was african american she got in. I found out about this when my dad had a conversation with the womans mom.
How something like this happens is beyond me, and trust me I'm all for equal rights and everything, but lowering standards for one group and raising them for another is ridiculous.
Go Michigan!
Here is one fact in pdf
Here is a summary of the facts of the NYC study
Here is an article on the facts of a study that shows just based of NAME alone your at a disadvantage.
"You're trying to hire someone and you get four resumes in the mail. First names on the resumes are Emily, Greg, Lakisha and Jamal. What do you think?
The team mailed out mailed out 5,000 applications. Results? "White" applicants got 50 percent more callbacks than did "black" applicants. That's a big difference. One way to interpret the 50 percent gap is that if you're black and looking for work, you need an extra eight years of job experience to have the same chance at a callback as a white job-seeker.
This unusual controlled experiment proves two things: Employers do act on their prejudices about race, and on average the prejudices hurt African-Americans."
Here are a few facts for you to read. But you have to do exactly that - read them. I have read thousands of pages on this stuff. Its not a simple as you think. How would you apologize for these hiring tactics? What excuse will you make this time. These are screwed up results and it just shows how far we havent come and how slow the wheel is turning. A.A. is what you could call reverse racism or reverse discrimination. But that is besides the point, if you read what i wrote earlier, you would know im not arguing for A.A.
I hope your name is no Jamal. Just think many people have ethnic names in america. These are not "ghetto" names, these are names that identifty the ethnic identity of black americans. This is as worse as it gets. What if they turned down all "east asian" or "jewish" "Sounding" names?
How informed are you REALLY on the subject? How long have you been working and in what fields?
You don't need a formal study to know employers certainly are racist. Psychology 101, that people have transpose themselves into other people who look and act like themselves. I'm not sure thats an excuse for affirmitive action in the work place, because that too is racism.
In education it's different. There needs to be some kind of curve that accounts for growing up in poverty (not the color of your skin). It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that somebody with a 1300 SAT in the ghetto would get a significantly higher score had he/she grown up in the suburbs. It's part of the american dream that the poor kid can make good, and today more than ever its tied to education. I may have not said it perfectly but you get the picture. Affirmitive Action is bad, but a bias can be good.
In education it's different. There needs to be some kind of curve that accounts for growing up in poverty (not the color of your skin). It's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that somebody with a 1300 SAT in the ghetto would get a significantly higher score had he/she grown up in the suburbs. It's part of the american dream that the poor kid can make good, and today more than ever its tied to education. I may have not said it perfectly but you get the picture. Affirmitive Action is bad, but a bias can be good.
Your right you dont need a formal study, but it helps you see the details and how deep or serious the problem is. It also helps your come up with solutions to that problem and see the big picture, not that small one that your looking at. Comment on the study if you will. I know all about how people want similar ones close to them. This should be different in the workplace when your are a hiring manager. There are things such as law and ethics to deal with. We are not talking about social groups and friendship. This is employment and directly effects a persons rights to live the American dream. Yes it should be against the law to discriminate based on race or NAME as the bottom study showed. And that goes both ways, that is one argument against A.A., buts its only ONE. There are experts that are more educated than both you and I that could tell you dozens of reasons why we still need A.A. And there are also the opposite. They are both right, it cannot be a one sided issue. But the fact remains - Black people get the shaft because of discrimination, FAR MORE than whites because of A.A. Its almost incomparable. The scale could be 1000:1 or even 10000:1 who would know? Your are continuing the myth of the black person stealing a job from a white person because of A.A. This is SO rare. Many times it is the "under-represented" person given a job based on equal merit. How did A.A help any of the Jamals and the Lakishas in the study? The callback difference was a whopping 50%! One interpretation stated that you would need an additional 8 years of experience to be EQUAL with that white person! What are you missing here. Hiring practices such as THESE are the opponents of A.A. not you and I, or "Emily and Greg." Why do you ask me for facts but dont comment on them when i post. Or never post facts your self.
On poverty. A.A. in its currents state could not be changed to just apply to poverty. That may be ok for education and entry level jobs but not employment in general. Whether is right or wrong :the person that gets a job from A.A. making 60k coming from 40k was not living in poverty. In the workplace, ALL black people can and are discriminated against, not just poor ones. Education is a different monster all together. And there are different indicators with A.A. for that. That is a discussion beyond the scope of the forum though.
On poverty. A.A. in its currents state could not be changed to just apply to poverty. That may be ok for education and entry level jobs but not employment in general. Whether is right or wrong :the person that gets a job from A.A. making 60k coming from 40k was not living in poverty. In the workplace, ALL black people can and are discriminated against, not just poor ones. Education is a different monster all together. And there are different indicators with A.A. for that. That is a discussion beyond the scope of the forum though.
I'm sure black people do have more problems finding a job but that is a problem they created themselves. Black names aren't associated with poor performance, drugs, and crime for no reason.
That is besides the point. These "black names" are ETHNIC black names. So regardless of "poor performance, drugs, and crime" no person should face discrimination based on their ethnic or cultural naming scheme. These are humans we are dealing with. People are facing discrimination because of a cultural trait and ethnic identity. And i am not talking about hiphop culture. The type of people that deal in drugs and crime are NOT looking for jobs at brokerage firms. Why should an opinion of them affect me. White people are "associated" with white collar crime....on a level that dwarfs all other crime associate with money. Should "White sounding" names be given less attention even though they have the same merit? Should everyone assimilate into American culture and use names that are not even American but European and middle eastern in origin? Should we start to discriminate against food that has a foreign sounding name and has a culture than is non-American or European even though it may taste equivalent or better? Do you feel that YOU or filterxg share some of the blame and are repsonsible for the "poor performance, drugs, and crime?" I dont, but thats how people will see it so i think you may be right...
Originally posted by: beyoku
That is besides the point. These "black names" are ETHNIC black names. So regardless of "poor performance, drugs, and crime" no person should face discrimination based on their ethnic or cultural naming scheme. These are humans we are dealing with. People are facing discrimination because of a cultural trait and ethnic identity. And i am not talking about hiphop culture. The type of people that deal in drugs and crime are NOT looking for jobs at brokerage firms. Why should an opinion of them affect me. White people are "associated" with white collar crime....on a level that dwarfs all other crime associate with money. Should "White sounding" names be given less attention even though they have the same merit? Should everyone assimilate into American culture and use names that are not even American but European and middle eastern in origin? Should we start to discriminate against food that has a foreign sounding name and has a culture than is non-American or European even though it may taste equivalent or better? Do you feel that YOU or filterxg share some of the blame and are repsonsible for the "poor performance, drugs, and crime?" I dont, but thats how people will see it so i thing you may be right...
I agree that it isn't fair. But nothing is going to change. Until black names have positive association. First impressions matter and when the first thing people see is the same name that they saw in the news last night it is going to bias how they read the reset of the resume.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,333
- 136
You really should stop there. Your ranting is nonsensical and your boasting is ridiculous in the face of my occupation and education.
The fact is that AA has been itself a simple solution to a complex problem. That's why it's never worked. You can't fight racism with racism. Yes, that's one sentence.
Whatever dude, "occupation and education" that you somehow refuse to bring to the discussion. I at least tried to write something of substance and give a bit of my background. All you have said is one-liners. You talk simple and are not worth the time.
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