So just exactly where does Dean really stand on Unions.

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Setting: Hardball with Chris Matthews
Excerpts from interview:
MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask it-let me ask it totally open. Do you think a person has a right to work somewhere if they don?t want to join a union?
DEAN: I do.
No, wait a minute. I don?t.

MATTHEWS: Why not? What?s wrong with an open shop where you can...
DEAN: I?ll tell you what?s the matter with it. Here is the problem with open-and, look, there?s obviously arguments to be made on...
MATTHEWS: A lot of states have right-to-work laws. You would get rid of them?
DEAN: I don?t like-well, I very much believe that states ought to have the right to recognize-to organize their own laws. So I?m not likely as president to-even though I don?t like right-to-work laws, I?m unlikely to order states to change them.
MATTHEWS: So you wouldn?t repeal 14B?
DEAN: No, I would not, but...
MATTHEWS: So you are different than Gephardt. He is with the unions.
You are not.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: I?m serious.
DEAN: All right...
MATTHEWS: I hate it. It?s called HARDBALL. This isn?t ?Success? magazine, OK?
(APPLAUSE)
DEAN: Let me tell you what-I actually believe in card check. I believe you shouldn?t have to have an election, that people who want to join a union should just be able to sign a card and join it. Let me tell you where I am on...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You are against-you do not believe in repealing 14B?
You?re not going to accept the challenge from Gephardt to do that?
DEAN: If I got a bill on my desk that repealed 14B, I?d sign it in an instant. I?m just not going to push it hard...
MATTHEWS: OK.
DEAN: Because I do believe states have to have make their own judgments of that.
OK, so what we know so far is that Dean thought he was for a worker's right to work without joining a union...but then decided that he actually was AGAINST workers choosing to work without joining a union. WTF!? He stumbles and bumbles the question as to WHY workers shouldn't be able to choose.
He then decided to switch his position on 14B. If you notice up top he said "No, I would not," when asked if he would "repeal 14B?". Now all of a sudden he says that he would sign a bill that repealed 14B!
Oh, wait...there is more!

MATTHEWS: OK.
DEAN: I hate right-to-work laws.
And let me tell you why it?s OK to be forced to join a union. The union is out there negotiating for your wage increases. Why should you get a free ride? Why should you should be able to go to work for that company, get the same benefits as everybody else who paid their union dues and you paid nothing? That?s why I?m against right-to-work laws.
MATTHEWS: OK.
WHAT!? "it's OK to be forced to join a union"? Sorry - but that doesn't sound like "freedom" to me - it sounds like extortion. The excuse about the Union negotiating the wages is BS. Non-union workers are NOT guaranteed the same "things" that union workers are supposedly getting via their negotiated union contract.
DEAN: But I do believe it?s important for states to be able to make their own laws.
Yeah sure you do...but yet you'd sign a bill that repeals 14B which is exactly what gives the states a say in the matter.

MATTHEWS: You understand why a libertarian would disagree with you, right? A libertarian would think they had a right, he or she, to work where they can do the job.
DEAN: Yes, but why should they-but why should they get the benefits of everybody else who is paying dues and get a free ride?
MATTHEWS: Because it?s a free country.
Bing-fricken-O! Because it's a free country is exactly right. Workers who don't want to be FORCED to join a union shouldn't have to.

WOW!!! I can't believe the press hasn't picked up on this part of the interview. They keep yapping about his skiing and deferment, or about his sealed records in Vermont - all the while ignoring a big domestic policy position!

As some of you know - I detest most unions, for a variety of reasons - but this isn't about any of that. This is about a man who would DESTROY workers rights by FORCING them to join a union if the shop is unionized. Little Dick isn't off the hook on this either as he's actually pushing this sort of legislation.

CkG

Edit for linky to transcript
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
Yeah, I'm pretty impressed and disappointed by the quoted material. "Thanks" :brokenheart: for the link. For those who follow, I thought Cad's presentation here was fairly presented and relevant (that's a first for me:Q).
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Hardball is badgering the witness I'm surprised he did'nt pull a Bush British Parlament move and just chicken out. Oh well they got him under duress on a complicated issue.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I hate right-to-work laws.
This is a bad move too. A public fiqure should never use the word HATE. It leaves a negative subliminal message in peoples mind. Like when Nixon said "i'm not a crook" everyone subliminally thought he was, he gave them the word.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Because it's a free country is exactly right. Workers who don't want to be FORCED to join a union shouldn't have to
---------------------------------
there are plenty of other places to work. IMO a union insures a basic set of skills like a nursing licence or any other labor related certification and should be required. In addition the collective power of unions enable even non-union workers to be paid OK. A better person to explain this is kirk who sees construction of fighter planes..and knows a fair share about union stewards etc. But I think anyone not joining a union is doing themselves a diservice in the long run. I wish I could but I'm exempt:(
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
Right-to-Work laws are bad.

they are nothing more than Right-to-Mooch laws really designed to cripple unions by starving them of funds from moochers.

Workers are guaranteed all the benefits of a union contract without having to pay any dues.

If you don't want to work for a company that is unionized....go work for one that isn't. If you are already employed at a company that gets organized and you don't like it.....quit. A majority voted and that's how society works.

 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
0
0
unions are part of the reason a lot of jobs are going overseas, because people overseas will do something when asked, but spoiled americans run to their union reps everytime there is a change in the way things are. Unions are crappy but ignoring that... the united states as a whole agrees with the right to work.
The united States did after all vote to pass the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human RIghts
Article 23
1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection agianst unemployment.

Unions are not nessecary, and the argument that dean gave about "free rides" is retarded. if everyone would drop out of the union it would be equal playing field, where you are graded on QUALITY OF WORK.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Right-to-Work laws are bad.

they are nothing more than Right-to-Mooch laws really designed to cripple unions by starving them of funds from moochers.

Workers are guaranteed all the benefits of a union contract without having to pay any dues.

If you don't want to work for a company that is unionized....go work for one that isn't. If you are already employed at a company that gets organized and you don't like it.....quit. A majority voted and that's how society works.
No - That's not how employment works;)

I think I already addressed the BS argument that workers are guaranteed all the "things" of the union contract w/o having to join. The big bad evil company can fire them or whatever w/o having to deal with the Union BS.

CkG
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,683
5,151
126
You can see the poverty of the US in the fact that people have to work and have made a religion of it. For millions of years of human evolution people never had jobs. We have enslaved ourselves but then, we feel we deserve it.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
I watched that segment. Chris Matthews looked and sounded like a completely insane idiot, much like Bill O'Wiley.

Do not ask successive questions without waiting for answers. Do not interrupt every 5 seconds. Do not throw in your opinions when it's Dean's opinions we're interested in knowing.

This is the problem with talk radio and most of these talk shows. They are all egomaniacs more interested in "ME, ME, ME" than answers to the questions.

I give Howard Dean low marks for not saying to Chris Matthews: "STFU for 5 seconds." One of these days even a New Englander will do it...I hope.

-Robert
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: chess9
I watched that segment. Chris Matthews looked and sounded like a completely insane idiot, much like Bill O'Wiley.

Do not ask successive questions without waiting for answers. Do not interrupt every 5 seconds. Do not throw in your opinions when it's Dean's opinions we're interested in knowing.

This is the problem with talk radio and most of these talk shows. They are all egomaniacs more interested in "ME, ME, ME" than answers to the questions.

I give Howard Dean low marks for not saying to Chris Matthews: "STFU for 5 seconds." One of these days even a New Englander will do it...I hope.

-Robert
That was my reaction when I read the excerpt. Matthews acted like a jerk. It is a complex issue that deserves more than 5 seconds thought.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Ldir
Originally posted by: chess9
I watched that segment. Chris Matthews looked and sounded like a completely insane idiot, much like Bill O'Wiley.

Do not ask successive questions without waiting for answers. Do not interrupt every 5 seconds. Do not throw in your opinions when it's Dean's opinions we're interested in knowing.

This is the problem with talk radio and most of these talk shows. They are all egomaniacs more interested in "ME, ME, ME" than answers to the questions.

I give Howard Dean low marks for not saying to Chris Matthews: "STFU for 5 seconds." One of these days even a New Englander will do it...I hope.

-Robert
That was my reaction when I read the excerpt. Matthews acted like a jerk. It is a complex issue that deserves more than 5 seconds thought.
Considering the badgering and leading of the Host, Dean did pretty well under the circumstance. There is a lot more to answering the question with straight yes or No because the issue varies from State to State as pointed out with the "Right to Work" States Vs the Unionized States. Even in the "Right to Work" States the Unions still exist so it is a very complex issue, questions and answers.

How do you think Bush would've handled it?


 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,676
136
Much of the anti-union sentiment in the US demonstrates just how well brainwashing works.

Dean didn't reverse himself, he misunderstood the original question, corrected his answer as he spoke. He's long favored Unions, and has tied fair trade to fair labor practices overseas many times, pointing out that if GM wants to move a factory to Mexico that they should have to take the UAW with them, too... might cut down on overseas outsourcing by a fair margin. Jobs aren't being exported because the companies can't show a profit with unionized American labor, it's because the profit just isn't as large, the entire point of unionization. Duh! There are a lot of other reasons, too, like steel tariffs and the price of subsidized commodities- A local candy company, Jolly Rancher, was recently moved by their new parent to Canada because of the radically lower price of sugar- and you gotta know that the Canadians don't grow much sugar...

"Right to Work" was among the first of the great Republican euphemisms for "taking it up the ass". Wages in right to starve states are lower than in the rest, so figure out what it really means for people who actually do the work of our society. Double talk worked so well on the non-thinking slogan loving mass of selfish and short-sighted americans that Republicans have applied that command of the language to all such endeavors- "Clear Skies", "Healthy forests", "Operation enduring Freedom", etc...

If some mass awakening doesn't happen RSN, we'll all end up working for Walmart, or the equivalent, wondering why we can't even afford to shop there, can't afford medical care, can't afford to buy a converted chicken coop to house our families. Some of us will deserve it, some of us will get dragged down by the generalized wave of stupidity thru propaganda being foisted off as "truth".

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Ldir
Originally posted by: chess9
I watched that segment. Chris Matthews looked and sounded like a completely insane idiot, much like Bill O'Wiley.

Do not ask successive questions without waiting for answers. Do not interrupt every 5 seconds. Do not throw in your opinions when it's Dean's opinions we're interested in knowing.

This is the problem with talk radio and most of these talk shows. They are all egomaniacs more interested in "ME, ME, ME" than answers to the questions.

I give Howard Dean low marks for not saying to Chris Matthews: "STFU for 5 seconds." One of these days even a New Englander will do it...I hope.

-Robert
That was my reaction when I read the excerpt. Matthews acted like a jerk. It is a complex issue that deserves more than 5 seconds thought.
Considering the badgering and leading of the Host, Dean did pretty well under the circumstance. There is a lot more to answering the question with straight yes or No because the issue varies from State to State as pointed out with the "Right to Work" States Vs the Unionized States. Even in the "Right to Work" States the Unions still exist so it is a very complex issue, questions and answers.

How do you think Bush would've handled it?
Buahahaha You guys actually think he did well!? If you were Dean, you'd answer like this: "I do. No, wait a minute. I don?t."

Give me a break - you people think he was being badgered? Did you consistantly miss where he couldn't explain himself? Badgering? HAHAHA!!! As Matthews said - "It?s called HARDBALL. This isn?t ?Success? magazine, OK?"

CkG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
One would be foolish if they didn't belong to a Union if they were in the Building Trades.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: AEB
unions are part of the reason a lot of jobs are going overseas, because people overseas will do something when asked, but spoiled americans run to their union reps everytime there is a change in the way things are. Unions are crappy but ignoring that... the united states as a whole agrees with the right to work.
The united States did after all vote to pass the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human RIghts
Article 23
1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection agianst unemployment.

Unions are not nessecary, and the argument that dean gave about "free rides" is retarded. if everyone would drop out of the union it would be equal playing field, where you are graded on QUALITY OF WORK.
No companies are moving overseas cause they can use red chineese prison camp labor which no american can compete with in the name of free trade. Nothings free though and this cycle will continue unti our wages (at least in the manufacturing sector) equilabrate with the thrid world. Worst part is even a "good and consenisous" business owner must make the move if his competitors do. I heard Both Russell athletic and Pluma athletic CEOs in 60 minutes stating this. They wanted to keep the jobs in USA. So thier first step, in the 80's was to move out of union controlled states like Michigan, Ca and NY and they moved to the south... They still could'nt compete..lost money every year at southern wages so HAD to make the SE asia move. Cant blame them, it's free trade policy that's fundmentally screwy and all we have worked for form envromental standards to wokers rights are in jeapordy in and effort to compete with societies who have none of these. I don't want to move to red china but it's comming here by default.

PS- Keep in mind for every manufacturing job lost or software engineer job lost to thrid word that's one more person competing for whatever job you may have. This lowers your wage because the labor supply is greater and makes it harder to get the job in the first place. So this effects everyone one way of another..If you still have to work for a living..

RED- I read a story about modular homes...they say in 20 years all buildings will be fabricated overseas and mearly assembled in USA. Say goodbye to a good part of the construction industry.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,683
5,151
126
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Much of the anti-union sentiment in the US demonstrates just how well brainwashing works.

Dean didn't reverse himself, he misunderstood the original question, corrected his answer as he spoke. He's long favored Unions, and has tied fair trade to fair labor practices overseas many times, pointing out that if GM wants to move a factory to Mexico that they should have to take the UAW with them, too... might cut down on overseas outsourcing by a fair margin. Jobs aren't being exported because the companies can't show a profit with unionized American labor, it's because the profit just isn't as large, the entire point of unionization. Duh! There are a lot of other reasons, too, like steel tariffs and the price of subsidized commodities- A local candy company, Jolly Rancher, was recently moved by their new parent to Canada because of the radically lower price of sugar- and you gotta know that the Canadians don't grow much sugar...

"Right to Work" was among the first of the great Republican euphemisms for "taking it up the ass". Wages in right to starve states are lower than in the rest, so figure out what it really means for people who actually do the work of our society. Double talk worked so well on the non-thinking slogan loving mass of selfish and short-sighted americans that Republicans have applied that command of the language to all such endeavors- "Clear Skies", "Healthy forests", "Operation enduring Freedom", etc...

If some mass awakening doesn't happen RSN, we'll all end up working for Walmart, or the equivalent, wondering why we can't even afford to shop there, can't afford medical care, can't afford to buy a converted chicken coop to house our families. Some of us will deserve it, some of us will get dragged down by the generalized wave of stupidity thru propaganda being foisted off as "truth".
I'm going to retire. No need to add a thing.

Fortunately I can on my union pension. :)
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Much of the anti-union sentiment in the US demonstrates just how well brainwashing works.

Dean didn't reverse himself, he misunderstood the original question, corrected his answer as he spoke. He's long favored Unions, and has tied fair trade to fair labor practices overseas many times, pointing out that if GM wants to move a factory to Mexico that they should have to take the UAW with them, too... might cut down on overseas outsourcing by a fair margin. Jobs aren't being exported because the companies can't show a profit with unionized American labor, it's because the profit just isn't as large, the entire point of unionization. Duh! There are a lot of other reasons, too, like steel tariffs and the price of subsidized commodities- A local candy company, Jolly Rancher, was recently moved by their new parent to Canada because of the radically lower price of sugar- and you gotta know that the Canadians don't grow much sugar...

"Right to Work" was among the first of the great Republican euphemisms for "taking it up the ass". Wages in right to starve states are lower than in the rest, so figure out what it really means for people who actually do the work of our society. Double talk worked so well on the non-thinking slogan loving mass of selfish and short-sighted americans that Republicans have applied that command of the language to all such endeavors- "Clear Skies", "Healthy forests", "Operation enduring Freedom", etc...

If some mass awakening doesn't happen RSN, we'll all end up working for Walmart, or the equivalent, wondering why we can't even afford to shop there, can't afford medical care, can't afford to buy a converted chicken coop to house our families. Some of us will deserve it, some of us will get dragged down by the generalized wave of stupidity thru propaganda being foisted off as "truth".
I'm going to retire. No need to add a thing.

Fortunately I can on my union pension. :)

Arn't you like 30?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: AEB
unions are part of the reason a lot of jobs are going overseas, because people overseas will do something when asked, but spoiled americans run to their union reps everytime there is a change in the way things are. Unions are crappy but ignoring that... the united states as a whole agrees with the right to work.
The united States did after all vote to pass the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human RIghts
Article 23
1. Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection agianst unemployment.

Unions are not nessecary, and the argument that dean gave about "free rides" is retarded. if everyone would drop out of the union it would be equal playing field, where you are graded on QUALITY OF WORK.
No companies are moving overseas cause they can use red chineese prison camp labor which no american can compete with in the name of free trade. Nothings free though and this cycle will continue unti our wages (at least in the manufacturing sector) equilabrate with the thrid world. Worst part is even a "good and consenisous" business owner must make the move if his competitors do. I heard Both Russell athletic and Pluma athletic CEOs in 60 minutes stating this. They wanted to keep the jobs in USA. So thier first step, in the 80's was to move out of union controlled states like Michigan, Ca and NY and they moved to the south... They still could'nt compete..lost money every year at southern wages so HAD to make the SE asia move. Cant blame them, it's free trade policy that's fundmentally screwy and all we have worked for form envromental standards to wokers rights are in jeapordy in and effort to compete with societies who have none of these. I don't want to move to red china but it's comming here by default.

PS- Keep in mind for every manufacturing job lost or software engineer job lost to thrid word that's one more person competing for whatever job you may have. This lowers your wage because the labor supply is greater and makes it harder to get the job in the first place. So this effects everyone one way of another..If you still have to work for a living..

RED- I read a story about modular homes...they say in 20 years all buildings will be fabricated overseas and mearly assembled in USA. Say goodbye to a good part of the construction industry.
Ah, Zebo, another that has taken off the blinders and no longer brainwashed. Welcome back from the field of sheep.
 

miguel

Senior member
Nov 2, 2001
621
0
0
Poor Dean. He got hammered. But I say that those with prepared speeches are not saying what they truly feel. Get them cornered and the truth comes out. Why do people like Matthews and O'rielly enjoy the success they do? I think it's because they do more than become a platform for people to spout the same things over and over. They tend to get to the point and expose the truth.
 

PaperclipGod

Banned
Apr 7, 2003
2,021
0
0
My thoughts on Dean: A progressive (read: socialist) liberal who's trying to disguise himself as a centrist. Luckily he wont get elected, but the thought that such a fringe candidate can get so much momentum is frightening for the future of this country.
 

miguel

Senior member
Nov 2, 2001
621
0
0
If Dean's support doesn't go down because of the Matthews thing, then I'd be scared. I think most people believed the crafted Dean presented through the internet and the media. As people see the real Dean, I think his support may falter a little. Heh, I think it should be required that everyone running for president go through the tough shows to show that they can handle it.
 

PaperclipGod

Banned
Apr 7, 2003
2,021
0
0
Originally posted by: miguel
If Dean's support doesn't go down because of the Matthews thing, then I'd be scared. I think most people believed the crafted Dean presented through the internet and the media. As people see the real Dean, I think his support may falter a little. Heh, I think it should be required that everyone running for president go through the tough shows to show that they can handle it.
Dean on O'Reilly would be funny.
 

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