So it seems ATI really has the upper hand in AA implementation and quality with the x1800s...

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: southpawuni

It would be absolutely ridiculous to buy a X1K based off of that very small, minute difference in AA/AF quality and give up all the Nvidia advantages of drivers/SLI/heat/power/single slot solution/price/availablility.

I think at this point, any openminded unbiased person would admit the Nvidia solutions are superior to ATI.

I'll give ATI superior AA/AF though, although slightly and it really doesnt bring enough to the table to merit a purchase over a competing Nvidia solution.
And the AA quality really means a whole lot less considering FPS are the dominant genre today.

Welp, I'm off to play my DVD special edition of Quake 4 online!

Looked at any benchmarks lately? There are plenty of reviews out there if you haven't had a chance to and I hope you have if you're going to make claims like that. You really had me rolling with that post.

I consider myself to be an openminded unbiased person (although I'm sure I've fallen short of that a time or two) and as soon as the X1800XT becomes available you'll find a 7800GTX in the for sale section. For me personally, I'd spend an extra $100 to get slightly better IQ (seems to be the consensus of the reviewers who looked for it), better performance in the games I play, and ease of overclocking (software voltage adjustments are SO much nicer than voltmods).

Your other "nails" in ATI's coffin are valid to a point. Availability and price will definetely be better for awhile. Driver quality is user preference. I personally had better luck with drivers for my X850XT than my 7800GTX but to each his own.

Single slot doesn't have much sway at all unless you have all your PCI slots filled. I'd personally rather have hot air exhausting out the back of the case than circulating in it.

SLI, well Crossfire will be out soon (I sure hope so anyway) and with no limitations like the X800 series solution I think it will be a viable alternative. That's yet to be seen of course and the downside is that people will have to change mobos to utilize it but most people would have to anyway if they want to run SLI.

Power is a concern but only so far as having to upgrade your current PSU, which you more-than-likely wouldn't need to do unless you have a really dumpy one currently. Otherwise the minimal increase in my energy bill will force me to eat plain Spaghetios for a day instead of Spaghetios with hotdogs, which I'm willing to do.

With heat, it is yet to be seen if it will be an issue. Rumor has it that the CCC is reporting temps 20 degrees higher than it should. We'll have to wait for definite results before saying that ATI has a disadvantage here.

I'm not trying to disturb the tranquil waters we have here at AT but I thought I should add my 2 cents.

 

[BFG10K]

And what do you think of the rest of my arguement?

I pretty much agree with them except for SLI which is a non-factor for me. ATi's improved AF could be nice but the behemoth dual-slot cooler concerns me much more I'm afraid.

I disagree on drivers wholeheartedly as when you examine Linux,

Another non-factor. I run Windows and on Windows the 9700 Pro and X800 XL have been far more stable than a 6800U. Also I never had any stuttering or pausing problems on the two ATi cards, unlike with the 6800U.

And the AA quality really means a whole lot less considering FPS are the dominant genre today.

AA makes a huge difference in FPSes, especially at high resolutions when enabling it can mean you have zero jaggies. Getting rid of jagged edges has a colossal impact on IQ.

 

[BFG10K]

You know what's hilarious about this?

Your usual blatant double standards?

Back in the days of the 5800/5900 I used to post the AF test wheel all the time, when the situation was reversed.

Back in the day you were trying to tell the world that AF wasn't needed; then you changed your tune and tried to tell us that anything over 4xAF is not needed. Now you're trying to tell us that even back then you were concerned about getting the best possible AF?

ROFL.

Even today you aren't concered about best possible AF and you accuse people of being jealous when they tell you to run at 16xAF.

Also since you claimed no performance difference between your 5800U and 9700 Pro you must've been running balanced or aggressive AF which both have inferior IQ to a 9700 Pro, which makes you a hypocrite because you weren't practicing the settings you preached. Had you been running application AF you would've experienced a colossal performance drop which would then make you a liar as you claimed the performance was the same.

So which is it Rollo? Lying or hypocrisy?

And pardon me, but don't you have issues when people bring up your past comments? Or are you saying you can post about past things but whenever somebody else points out your blatant bias that's forbidden?

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

I disagree on drivers wholeheartedly as when you examine Linux,

Another non-factor. I run Windows and on Windows the 9700 Pro and X800 XL have been far more stable than a 6800U. Also I never had any stuttering or pausing problems on the two ATi cards, unlike with the 6800U.

So you dont consider the fact they drop support earlier for their products in Windows than Nvidia does?

I can think of a few times off the top of my head that they've cut support off from products when Nvidia has continued to support theirs.

For me, this is a clear and decisive part where Nvidia drivers are clearly better supported than ATI.

 

[imported_Amuro]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
XL are available MANY places. Why cant people understand that? I never said the XT was avail. The poster never mentioned XT's in his post. He clearly states the X1800 series, as does the link he dropped. Its pretty clear that I had a typo in "X1800X:'s" where : = L.

Based on the screenshot I left, how can you even say NV's AF is on par? The picture doesnt lie.

That's a driver isssue with the rel 80 dirvers. The new 81.85 probably has already fixed that.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Amuro

Originally posted by: Ackmed
XL are available MANY places. Why cant people understand that? I never said the XT was avail. The poster never mentioned XT's in his post. He clearly states the X1800 series, as does the link he dropped. Its pretty clear that I had a typo in "X1800X:'s" where : = L.

Based on the screenshot I left, how can you even say NV's AF is on par? The picture doesnt lie.

That's a driver isssue with the rel 80 dirvers. The new 81.85 probably has already fixed that.

Actually, according to some of the guys at Nvnews, they still have the blurry AF implementation.

 

[Keysplayr]

Dug, I have been meaning to ask you. Why don't you own an ATI card instead of a 6600GT? You seem to be quite miffed over the blocky shadows thing and now ATI has the upper hand in IQ thread. This is just a question mind you. How come you havent sold your GT and purchased an ATI equivalent?

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: GML3G0
Ummm... yea...

Somehow i doubt AF is on in the second pic. Even my 5900XT (as pitiful as it is) Filtering goes MUCH farther than that. I think someone is just trying to mess around.

If their AF was that bad, dont you think you would see reviewers jumping all over it!?!

Sorry but no.

As for the XL. Well yeah we never said the XL wasn't available . However it is in certain stores at VERY limited quantities. Furthermore, the XL doesn't offer anything really new, except that it is ATI. WHile the XT really competes and i dare say pulls ahead overall when compared to the GTX, the 7800GT simply trumps the XL in all categories. Not using that as an excuse or anything, but the real power is behind the XT.

-Kevin

-Kevin

With facts in front of you, you still cant believe the proof. Thats pretty bad. Ask Derek from AT why he didnt do image comparisons. Dont cry foul because someone did, and showed ATi's to be better.

The XL's are not in "VERY limited quanities". There are several resellers to buy from. Add 99 to your cart at newegg if you want.

You claim the 7800GT "simply trumphs the XL in all catagories", this is simply not true. The XL can do HDR+AA, has much better AF, and in many peoples opinion, better AA. Thats not all catagories to me. The GT has many things going for it, however its not better in every aspect.

No you never said the XL wasnt avail, but you also suggested you couldnt buy a X1800 card, which is false. As false as your statement that the GT is better in every way.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Dug, I have been meaning to ask you. Why don't you own an ATI card instead of a 6600GT? You seem to be quite miffed over the blocky shadows thing and now ATI has the upper hand in IQ thread. This is just a question mind you. How come you havent sold your GT and purchased an ATI equivalent?

i got the 6600GT as a replacement for my 9800 pro (which i loved ) when the supplier i bought it off replaced the 9800 pro with the 6600GT at that price point, i basically had no choice, but, that said it's a great overclocker, and other than farcry i have no complaints, generally a nice speed bump...since i live in perth, WA, it's nowhere as easy to sell and buy stuff as it is in the us/canada, and i don't have the money anyway, the 9800 pro was bought to last me until at least the end of our summer this year (so feb 2006) when i'll have some cash to get back into the game...

 

[Madellga]

Not only ATIs X1800 series has better AF but it doesn't shimmer like the Nvidia's 7800.

A 500 $ card that shimmers is not acceptable. And the issue is in the hardware:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2552&p=5

"Starting with Area Anisotropic (or high quality AF as it is called in the driver), ATI has finally brought viewing angle independent anisotropic filtering to their hardware. NVIDIA introduced this feature back in the GeForce FX days, but everyone was so caught up in the FX series' abysmal performance that not many paid attention to the fact that the FX series had better quality anisotropic filtering than anything from ATI. Yes, the performance impact was larger, but NVIDIA hardware was differentiating the Euclidean distance calculation sqrt(x^2 + y^2 + z^2) in its anisotropic filtering algorithm. Current methods (NVIDIA stopped doing the quality way) simply differentiate an approximated distance in the form of (ax + by + cz). Math buffs will realize that the differential for this approximated distance simply involves constants while the partials for Euclidean distance are less trivial. Calculating a square root is a complex task, even in hardware, which explains the lower performance of the "quality AF" equation. "


Of course people with 2 7800GTX in SLI will say that doesn't bother them, because that would mean that a 1000 $ + setup has mediocre IQ quality and they wasted their Dad's money.

I tried a 9800 Pro on my lan box and World of Warcraft doesn't shimmer there. But it does on my 7800GTX.

As I run a Dell 2405 FP, I need something better. I am looking forward for more reviews on the IQ and shimmer issues for the X1800 series, so I can make a safe buy this time.

 

[CaiNaM]

anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

 

[Janooo]

Does anybody know when the AT promised IQ review comes out?

Final Words of the ATI's X1000 Series: Extended Performance Testing

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

Heh...I don't see any takers

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

I dont recall anyone saying that the 7800 series was broken, or that it had crappy IQ. You've been taking notes from others who like to exaggerate and put words in other peoples mouths. Its just a simple fact that ATi has better AF. Why try and make fun of people for wanting better IQ?

NV took a step backwards with AF quality, and ATi took a step forwards, and gave customers what they wanted. Now hopefully NV will have to follow suit. Try and belittle it all you want, you and I both know its better for the customers.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I dont recall anyone saying that the 7800 series was broken, or that it had crappy IQ. You've been taking notes from others who like to exaggerate and put words in other peoples mouths. Its just a simple fact that ATi has better AF. Why try and make fun of people for wanting better IQ?

then you need to read more... the inferior aa/af, the shimmering, the "blocky" shadows in far cry.. these are very serious issues, if not by themselves, certainly when you add them all together.

NV took a step backwards with AF quality, and ATi took a step forwards, and gave customers what they wanted. Now hopefully NV will have to follow suit. Try and belittle it all you want, you and I both know its better for the customers.

nv took a step backwards from gf4 to fx, then again from fx to nv40, basically matching ati's crappy af. again, i find it funny that a few of us on these forums were very disappointed when nv did this, but frankly the ati blowhards didn't seem to think crappy AF with r300 was anything to complain about. now it's an issue because the roles are reversed?

now ati took a step back in the other direction with r520 (and don't get me wrong, i see this as a GOOD thing), and all of the sudden it's a HUGE thing to a very large group of people (at least here on these forums).

i'm just trying to help those that are in an uproar a solution by taking these crappy product s off thier hands so they can get a better one. what's wrong with that?

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

Last time I checked (last weekend) I could sell it for 400 or more. Better to lose 50 bucks than 450.

The difference from the others is that I have the courage to say I bought I bad product.

Hum, maybe that will spread and lower the card's value !? From now on, I will say the GTX is great and you should buy it.

New reason: I am selling my GTX because I need to pay my bills and need the money.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Madellga

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

Last time I checked (last weekend) I could sell it for 400 or more. Better to lose 50 bucks than 450.

The difference from the others is that I have the courage to say I bought I bad product.

Hum, maybe that will spread and lower the card's value !? From now on, I will say the GTX is great and you should buy it.

New reason: I am selling my GTX because I need to pay my bills and need the money.

so you would screw other ppl by getting top dollar for such an inferior product? come on, have the balls to put your money where your mouth is; inform everyone of how bad these cards really are so they can benefit from your personal experience and don't end up getting such a bad product as you did...

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Try and belittle it all you want, you and I both know its better for the customers.

Sort of like when they cut their warranty by 66% and paper launch products. It's just better for the customers Cainam.

When a person's video card fails after 13 months, they don't want the hassle of returning it to the maker- they want to go buy the current years model! (and remember, heat is the enemy of GPU longevity, so these reports of 90 degree load temps on X1800XLs should help the process along!)

Also, paper launched products mean more money in your budget for other things, less wasted on costly video cards.

ATI is always thinking of what's better for the customers.

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: Madellga

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

Last time I checked (last weekend) I could sell it for 400 or more. Better to lose 50 bucks than 450.

The difference from the others is that I have the courage to say I bought I bad product.

Hum, maybe that will spread and lower the card's value !? From now on, I will say the GTX is great and you should buy it.

New reason: I am selling my GTX because I need to pay my bills and need the money.

so you would screw other ppl by getting top dollar for such an inferior product? come on, have the balls to put your money where your mouth is; inform everyone of how bad these cards really are so they can benefit from your personal experience and don't end up getting such a bad product as you did...

Eheh, this forums has a lot of people that thinks otherwise. I don't think I will have problems to find one of them.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Madellga

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

Last time I checked (last weekend) I could sell it for 400 or more. Better to lose 50 bucks than 450.

The difference from the others is that I have the courage to say I bought I bad product.

Hum, maybe that will spread and lower the card's value !? From now on, I will say the GTX is great and you should buy it.

New reason: I am selling my GTX because I need to pay my bills and need the money.

I think you should link to all your anti- nVidia posts in your ad, so people can get an idea what you think of the card you're selling?



That's sort of a sad story, liquidating your video card to pay the phone bill.
Hope things look up fo you.

 

[CaiNaM]

i'd agree. x1800xt is a paper launch, if for no other reason than to stop the bleeding and hope some ppl hold of a month or more before buying, rather than getting a competing product.

as for the xl, i think it's overall a decent card. at the same $ as a gt, i think i might be willing to give up performance in some areas to gain better AF.. i'd at least be willing to purchase one to try out, as if the heat issue, etc was such i could just return it.. but i'd be more than willing to give it a chance based upon the reviews i've seen so far.

the main think holding me back is, at the cost of these things, and the fact ati was so late to market, part of me is thinking it would be logical to hold out another 6 months or so (it's not likethose of us with x800/6800 series cards can't play anything out there now) to see what the next series of cards will hold as far as performance in IQ -- that is unless i can help someone out by taking their broken 7800 series cards off their hands.

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Try and belittle it all you want, you and I both know its better for the customers.

Sort of like when they cut their warranty by 66% and paper launch products. It's just better for the customers Cainam.

When a person's video card fails after 13 months, they don't want the hassle of returning it to the maker- they want to go buy the current years model! (and remember, heat is the enemy of GPU longevity, so these reports of 90 degree load temps on X1800XLs should help the process along!)

Also, paper launched products mean more money in your budget for other things, less wasted on costly video cards.

ATI is always thinking of what's better for the customers.

Rollo, nobody told you to buy ATI. If it is that bad, don't buy. We know you won't.

There are also Nvidia vendors that only give 1 year warranty. The difference is that Nvidia does not sell cards directly like ATI.

Despite what you said, you can have more than 1 year warranty. There are other OEMs selling ATI cards. Just look for one with a better warranty police.

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Madellga

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
anyone out there so disguted with the iq of their 7800 gt/gtx cards that they're willing to have a "fire sale" to get rid of theirs so they can buy an 1800xl? i'd be willing to pay $200 for some of these broken cards with crappy IQ.

Last time I checked (last weekend) I could sell it for 400 or more. Better to lose 50 bucks than 450.

The difference from the others is that I have the courage to say I bought I bad product.

Hum, maybe that will spread and lower the card's value !? From now on, I will say the GTX is great and you should buy it.

New reason: I am selling my GTX because I need to pay my bills and need the money.

I think you should link to all your anti- nVidia posts in your ad, so people can get an idea what you think of the card you're selling?



That's sort of a sad story, liquidating your video card to pay the phone bill.
Hope things look up fo you.

I didn't post that. Derek did. It was on the front page 2 weeks ago.

As you simply cannot deny it (because it is true), you prefer to say now that I am anti Nvidia.

Cuckoo ! Look at my signature. Nvidia chipset and card. I have the right to get top quality for the price I paid for my GTX.

Instead of spreading FUD and OT over all threads, why don't you ask to your "Nvidia insider" how to answer that and take the time to explain us that Derek was completely wrong.

 

[Ackmed]

Not responding to Rollos trolling post.

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I dont recall anyone saying that the 7800 series was broken, or that it had crappy IQ. You've been taking notes from others who like to exaggerate and put words in other peoples mouths. Its just a simple fact that ATi has better AF. Why try and make fun of people for wanting better IQ?

then you need to read more... the inferior aa/af, the shimmering, the "blocky" shadows in far cry.. these are very serious issues, if not by themselves, certainly when you add them all together.

I read fine. I am aware of these issues. These issues do not mean that the 7800 series is "broken". AA and AF are working as planned. The shimmering problem seems to be ok with them, because they dont seem to have any attempt to fix it, other than for HQ. I wouldnt go as far as calling the IQ of the 7800 series "crappy", its just not as good as the X1800's, in my opinion.

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: AckmedNV took a step backwards with AF quality, and ATi took a step forwards, and gave customers what they wanted. Now hopefully NV will have to follow suit. Try and belittle it all you want, you and I both know its better for the customers.

nv took a step backwards from gf4 to fx, then again from fx to nv40, basically matching ati's crappy af. again, i find it funny that a few of us on these forums were very disappointed when nv did this, but frankly the ati blowhards didn't seem to think crappy AF with r300 was anything to complain about. now it's an issue because the roles are reversed?

now ati took a step back in the other direction with r520 (and don't get me wrong, i see this as a GOOD thing), and all of the sudden it's a HUGE thing to a very large group of people (at least here on these forums).

i'm just trying to help those that are in an uproar a solution by taking these crappy product s off thier hands so they can get a better one. what's wrong with that?

The difference between what NV did with the FX series, and what ATi is doing now, is giving people the option of turning on better AF. The FX had many problems to start with, and the horrible AF performance was just one of them. If NV had given people the option of turning on the best AF, or not, it wouldnt have been a problem. With ATi's new cards, you can turn on the best AF, or not. By not doing it, you would still get decent AF (on par with NV's), and better frames. Or you could get the best AF avail, and lower frames.

 

[gsellis]

I like you Pabster, but they were right. You did not originally specify XT's, only X1800s.

Sapphire at Newegg

ATI at Newegg

Both in stock. But as far as I am concerned neither the 7800 nor the X1800 are shipped product for my ASUS PC-DL Deluxe mobo.... (what part do you cut off again to make them AGP?)