so i bought a Topre today [thoughts]

[DigDog]

this isn't a PC Master Race brag thread - that will happen when i post the review. Rather, i bought this kb from keyboardco.com , a UK-based retailer of ANSI keyboards. As i understand it, they receive the US-layout boards directly from Topre in Japan.

And, they are eternally out of stock. I was in a waiting list, and got the email today that new stock was gonna be available Feb 14, and immediately bought a keyboard.

retails for £175, plus VAT, and £8 shipping, the lot comes to £219.

These guys will likely sell out their entire stock before they even receive it.

And mind you, it's not like Topre has a HUGE selection of stock, they got black and beige, and 3 different switch weight (same switch, different spring). There's some other models but they are rarer than a blue moon.
I'm really curious as to why a OEM such as Topre, in such high demand that every retailer in EU/NA is nearly always sold out, doesn't increase their output, thereby reducing cost. It's not like two plastic shells and 90 springs cost $200.

I also noticed that a excessively large number of videos on Youtube for Topre are from Thailand; for a country with an average earning of $8000/y, i doubt that Topres are as expensive there as they are here. Surely it cannot be good business to price people out of your product... money is made with volume, not cost.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I also noticed that a excessively large number of videos on Youtube for Topre are from Thailand; for a country with an average earning of $8000/y, i doubt that Topres are as expensive there as they are here.

Or they've just been sold there longer, so the few Thai who can afford them already bought them and posted Youtube reviews. I see that a lot in the US - brands that are "new" here but already pretty popular in Asia.

Surely it cannot be good business to price people out of your product... money is made with volume, not cost.

Not true.

You can generally make a lot of revenue by selling a large quantity of cheap things, but in order to do that, you need to invest a LOT of money in a very large supplier and distribution network. This means, though, that your margins are very low, and that if there's even a small downturn in sales volume, you start bleeding money. It's risky and difficult, and the few companies that have "figured out" logistics and distribution have done very well.

But branding and "boutique" status has a value of its own. (Think of Apple, of Ferrari, or how BMW operates in the North American market.) It's generally less "work" to sell a smaller number of premium products at a much higher price, with a much higher individual markup. Especially if the overall market (external keyboards for desktop computers) isn't growing particularly fast.

IOW, you can sell 10,000 keyboards that cost you $50 to make for $200 each and turn a tidy profit of $1.5M. Because of your high margins, your company is very attractive to investors (Whose money you will need for cocaine and prostitutes.)

If you sold the same keyboard for $100, you'd have to sell 3x as many to make the same profit, which means 50% more revenue (yay!) but 3x the manufacturing work. And if your margins are lower, your business is less attractive to investors (whose money you now have to spend on logistics, manufacturing, etc., to make 3x as many keyboards.)

Also, would you really triple your sales if you cut the price that much? Or are people who can afford a $100 keyboard mostly willing to "stretch" to $200 (or wait for a "sale price" of $175) if it's a really nice product? Market research is important, and often goes against most peoples' "gut feelings." Also, there would then be additional pressure from investors to cut the production costs and keep your margin up, which starts a bit of a race to the bottom.

At the extreme low end, you've got companies selling a keyboard for $5 that cost them $5.12 to make, once you convert Euros to Yuan and adjust for inflation. But if they don't sell the ones they've already got in inventory or committed to ordering, they won't have enough cash on hand to make payroll. So they just have to hope the exchange rate shifts a little bit in the other direction before the end of the fiscal year so they can actually start turning a profit again.

 

[ao_ika_red]

Whind kind of Topre do you have? I live in SEA and maybe I could help you confirming your theory (about cheaper in Asia than in EU). A quick search in my local e-market shows a Topre Type Heaven costing north of 130 USD. And for comparison, I bought my Logitech G413 for less than 70 USD.

 

[cbn]

Topre Type Heaven

This has to be the nicest looking mechanial keyboard I have ever seen:

(Reason: It is so clean)

 

[giantpandaman2]

Or they've just been sold there longer, so the few Thai who can afford them already bought them and posted Youtube reviews. I see that a lot in the US - brands that are "new" here but already pretty popular in Asia.



Not true.

You can generally make a lot of revenue by selling a large quantity of cheap things, but in order to do that, you need to invest a LOT of money in a very large supplier and distribution network. This means, though, that your margins are very low, and that if there's even a small downturn in sales volume, you start bleeding money. It's risky and difficult, and the few companies that have "figured out" logistics and distribution have done very well.

But branding and "boutique" status has a value of its own. (Think of Apple, of Ferrari, or how BMW operates in the North American market.) It's generally less "work" to sell a smaller number of premium products at a much higher price, with a much higher individual markup. Especially if the overall market (external keyboards for desktop computers) isn't growing particularly fast.

IOW, you can sell 10,000 keyboards that cost you $50 to make for $200 each and turn a tidy profit of $1.5M. Because of your high margins, your company is very attractive to investors (Whose money you will need for cocaine and prostitutes.)

If you sold the same keyboard for $100, you'd have to sell 3x as many to make the same profit, which means 50% more revenue (yay!) but 3x the manufacturing work. And if your margins are lower, your business is less attractive to investors (whose money you now have to spend on logistics, manufacturing, etc., to make 3x as many keyboards.)

Also, would you really triple your sales if you cut the price that much? Or are people who can afford a $100 keyboard mostly willing to "stretch" to $200 (or wait for a "sale price" of $175) if it's a really nice product? Market research is important, and often goes against most peoples' "gut feelings." Also, there would then be additional pressure from investors to cut the production costs and keep your margin up, which starts a bit of a race to the bottom.

At the extreme low end, you've got companies selling a keyboard for $5 that cost them $5.12 to make, once you convert Euros to Yuan and adjust for inflation. But if they don't sell the ones they've already got in inventory or committed to ordering, they won't have enough cash on hand to make payroll. So they just have to hope the exchange rate shifts a little bit in the other direction before the end of the fiscal year so they can actually start turning a profit again.

Intelligent, well thought out answers are so rare in forums. Kudos to you!

 

[DigDog]

a Topre Type Heaven costing north of 130 USD.

....

see? here it is $270 - two hundred and seventy. i'm talking about the U87, tenkeyless.

Intelligent, well thought out answers are so rare in forums. Kudos to you!

he's a lifer .. he's had time to learn.

i appreciate all input by dave, but some of that i will have to dispute; but not now, i had too much vodka and i'm hungover.

 

[cbn]

....

see? here it is $270 - two hundred and seventy.

Wow that is expensive.

In the US it is $140 to $150:

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=186 (though all but the pink are out of stock)

https://www.amazon.com/Topre-Type-Heaven-104-key-Keyboard/dp/B00DGJALYW (Amazon has black in stock though at $168 shipped)

 

[DigDog]

ok maybe not the Type Heaven, not sure what that has different, but the Realforce are $229. and here, in europe (god bless europe) they cost even more.
IT MUST BE ALL THAT FREE HEALTHCARE WE GET

 

[cbn]

ok maybe not the Type Heaven, not sure what that has different, but the Realforce are $229. and here, in europe (god bless europe) they cost even more.

Yep, looking at the store you mentioned in the opening post the Type Heaven is a lot cheaper:

http://www.keyboardco.com/category.asp?sr=topre

 

[DigDog]

you can see, these guys ask for 100 Gbp for a ten-key pad.

 

[ao_ika_red]

Spoiler: Topre Realforce 87U White

Converted to GBP, it will cost you roughly about 143 GBP or 203 USD. So yeah, import tax is to blame here. I do apologise if this post is adding insult to injury, but it is what it is.

 

[Dranoche]

The Realforce can have variable or uniformly weighted keys and comes with PBT caps. The Type Heaven only has uniformly weighted keys and comes with ABS caps. All of the Realforce components are made in Japan. The springs and possibly some other components of the Type Heaven are made in China. The rubber membrane of the Type Heaven is still the same Japan-made part found in the Realforce.

 

[Vertigo-1]

There's some other models but they are rarer than a blue moon.

You called? All uniform 55G keys as well...IMO you really haven't experienced Topre until you've used one with all 55G weights.

 

[DigDog]

i'm still waiting on the delivery, it's coming back to stock Feb 12, and should be with me next-day. yes, it's the 55g uniform.

 

[DigDog]

my realfore u87 has arrived this morning. i'm loving it, and while it's too early to do a review, i did play some quake, and typing on it feels great. i would describe it as "a membrane keyboard, but REALLY GOOD", because it is one, but it's also what it feels like. Think that brand-new rubber dome kb, but springier .. hmm .. yes it does have springs in it, but as i understand it it's just the membrane doing the tactility.
It's *not* the same feeling as i was hoping for, i will be honest. I used to play on a keyboard back in the 90s that i have no idea what switch it had, but possibly, could have been a tactile Alps, and that would be even better .. but this keyboard oozes build quality.

 

[MrSquished]

doesn't even have media or volume keys.

overpriced hype

 

[DigDog]

the only real fault i have found insofar is that the keys have very little .. hmm .. how can i say this ..

when i play QuakeLive .. which i do ... and other shooters as well, on my Cherry kb, the keys have a part of their initial travel, where they do not actuate. You press the button, but no click.
This is VERY useful, to hold the key half pressed at the edge of actuation, as it allows me both to feel the key, but also because of the ergonomics. i *grip* the keyboard with my fingers. I could probably move the keyboard with the WASD keys without actuating any. I might get used to not doing that, but having a solid hold on the keys is what tells my brain where every other key is.

i had a drop in skill when i moved from my membrane to my cherry, and now again from the cherry to the topre. it's gonna work itself out likely, but i do miss the feeling of control of the cherry board.

 

[Dranoche]

the only real fault i have found insofar is that the keys have very little .. hmm .. how can i say this ..

when i play QuakeLive .. which i do ... and other shooters as well, on my Cherry kb, the keys have a part of their initial travel, where they do not actuate. You press the button, but no click.
This is VERY useful, to hold the key half pressed at the edge of actuation, as it allows me both to feel the key, but also because of the ergonomics. i *grip* the keyboard with my fingers. I could probably move the keyboard with the WASD keys without actuating any. I might get used to not doing that, but having a solid hold on the keys is what tells my brain where every other key is.

i had a drop in skill when i moved from my membrane to my cherry, and now again from the cherry to the topre. it's gonna work itself out likely, but i do miss the feeling of control of the cherry board.

Which Cherry are you comparing to? The actuation distance on the Topre is 2.2 mm. Cherry blues are 2.2 mm as well, and browns 2.0 mm. The top of the tactile bump, before the switch collapses, is about 0.8 to 1.2 mm on Topre depending on the rating (should be closer to 1.2 for 55 g), about 1.2 mm for Cherry brown, and about 1.7 mm for Cherry blue. The resistance leading up the the top of the tactile bump is much sharper on the Cherry switches than the Topre, so it's easier to feel.

 

[DigDog]

i'm on the topre now. i cannot get ANY movement of the key before it actuates. Here is what happens; i put my finger on the key. i press slightly. the key does not give way at all. i keep pressing, and go above the actuation force, and the key actuates.
honestly, there is no travel at all without actuation. i try to press move it without actuating, and i just can't.

on my cherry clear, i can dig in to the key, and stop before the tactile bump; this tells my hand exactly where my fingers are. On the topre, while gaming, if i have to do a strange hand movement, say, keep fingers on wasd, press 3, and reach ctrl with pinky (shotgun+crouch), my hand will lift and i lose positioning over the keys.

as for the tactile bump being more on the cherry, eh, not so much.

 

[Dranoche]

Google "force curves" for different switch types. Resistance on the Topre increases relatively smoothly with no obvious jump leading up to the peak of the tactile bump, which is why it's hard to find a point prior to the peak to rest. It probably isn't even right to call it a tactile bump on the Topre. The Cherry switches provide fairly linear and flat resistance (relative to Topre, at least) up to the bump, particularly the browns and blues. The bump on the clears doesn't look to be so distinct as the blues or browns, almost closer to Topre. I'll have to go find my Cherry tester and mess around with them again, though I recall the bumps on all the tactile switches being easy to find. I guess it must be something about the physical bump on the stem versus the rubber dome.

The 55g switch probably isn't ideal for gaming where you may be waiting for something and then looking for a very fast response.

 

[DigDog]

don't get me wrong, the topre has an excellent response speed. as soon as i start pressing a key, it actuates. this is good.
However, i have little hand control. i cannot get ANY travel on the keys, and this confuses my brain when i'm doing complex finger movements.

i'll have to keep using it and get used to it.

 

[bononos]

.........
I also noticed that a excessively large number of videos on Youtube for Topre are from Thailand; for a country with an average earning of $8000/y, i doubt that Topres are as expensive there as they are here. Surely it cannot be good business to price people out of your product... money is made with volume, not cost.

I think topres are expensive because the patent hasn't expired like the cherrys and the market isn't flooded with quality clones. There are some topre clones but they don't feel close to the real thing according to reviews.

 

[DigDog]

big improvement over the last few days, getting used to the switch. I now realize the mistake i have made, as i am now craving buying more new switches.

Next one will likely be an Alps Blue.

 

[nerp]

This has to be the nicest looking mechanial keyboard I have ever seen:

(Reason: It is so clean)

It's a lovely board. I have one. It's the perfect entry level Topre -- if you can't stomach paying about double for the RealForce.

 

[nerp]

don't get me wrong, the topre has an excellent response speed. as soon as i start pressing a key, it actuates. this is good.
However, i have little hand control. i cannot get ANY travel on the keys, and this confuses my brain when i'm doing complex finger movements.

i'll have to keep using it and get used to it.

Topre is god, but not for gaming, sadly. This is why I have a RomerG board (Logitech G Pro) for gaming and my Topre for everything else. Topre's key feel and travel depth is like great sex for writing but gets in the way of gaming. I love my Romer Gs for quick spam slapping keys.