So I am thinking about electric heaters instead of central heat running all the time

[jagec]

That's true. Small heaters will never be more efficient than a large central unit.

If it's electric heat, then sure they are.

Electric heat is 100% efficient, but more of it is "useful" heat when you're using a localized heat source, vs. blowing it through the entire house.

Forced-air electric furnaces make zero sense to me.

 

[WilliamM2]

I've had my outside hose pipes burst on multiple occasions, thankfully I close the water in August/September before it gets cold. I should probably put some small heaters at the pipes that go outside. Those are the most vulnerable points, even with insulation as the cold travels from the outside faucet through the actual metal of the pipe. Any residual water in there expands.

They make freeze proof wall hydrants you know. The valve actually sits a foot into the interior of the house. You still have to disconnect the hose before winter.

 

[Imp]

Another thing to think about is the potential fire hazard...

Not sure what happens, but I hear a lot more "left a space heater on" than "central heating system fuxxored" stories when it comes to fires.

 

[tortillasoup]

You need to say fiberglass batts, since you can now get blown in fiberglass which works just as well, if not better than blown in cellulose.

Fiberglass blown in is still shit compared to cellulose. One problem with fiberglass is that it has no thermal inertia.

 

[NetWareHead]

Right, but my point was, no heating methods that I am aware of will really work well without electricity.

if you are lucky enough to have a house with steam heat, those work without electricity. The steam vapor pressure in a well designed system delivers heat to all radiators and drains condensate back to the boiler, no circulators needed.

Nowadays, steam powered energy transfer systems are a lost work of art. They have been replaced by the inception of the power grid - that made modern wet systems fool proof and economical because pumps could be be used in place of gravity.

 

[Red Squirrel]

They make freeze proof wall hydrants you know. The valve actually sits a foot into the interior of the house. You still have to disconnect the hose before winter.

Those are the ones that burst on me. Really not sure how. I installed it so that it's slanted towards outside so any residual water comes out but somehow it still managed to freeze and burst. Had a nasty surprise the next spring when I turned it on. Only realized when I got back in the house. I'm always paranoid in spring now so I only turn it on slightly then go downstairs to check. I ended up getting a plumber to install a new one figuring I must have done it wrong so I'd leave it to a pro. That one burst too, though it never actually made a hole, it just expanded where the valve is. I should probably replace it.

I have one on the north side of the house and that one has been fine though, it's weird. I'm wondering if snow gets in it or something and because it's facing south it melts/freezes and eventually expands. I'd have to put a cap on it, but I think that can make things worse, as they say not to leave the hose on it so putting a cap would probably be like leaving the hose on it. I just shut the upstream valve in the basement and open it outside. But think that may encourage the cold to travel further down the pipe.

Thing is I'd like to actually be able to use it in winter but I'd have to figure out how to stop the freezing first. I'd like to eventually get into making ice decorations like bricks and stuff, maybe even molded sculptures. I always thought how cool it would be to make an ice nativity scene for Christmas. I'd freeze LEDs in the ice and have them light up.

 

[imagoon]

Those are the ones that burst on me. Really not sure how. I installed it so that it's slanted towards outside so any residual water comes out but somehow it still managed to freeze and burst. Had a nasty surprise the next spring when I turned it on. Only realized when I got back in the house. I'm always paranoid in spring now so I only turn it on slightly then go downstairs to check. I ended up getting a plumber to install a new one figuring I must have done it wrong so I'd leave it to a pro. That one burst too, though it never actually made a hole, it just expanded where the valve is. I should probably replace it.

I have one on the north side of the house and that one has been fine though, it's weird. I'm wondering if snow gets in it or something and because it's facing south it melts/freezes and eventually expands. I'd have to put a cap on it, but I think that can make things worse, as they say not to leave the hose on it so putting a cap would probably be like leaving the hose on it. I just shut the upstream valve in the basement and open it outside. But think that may encourage the cold to travel further down the pipe.

Thing is I'd like to actually be able to use it in winter but I'd have to figure out how to stop the freezing first. I'd like to eventually get into making ice decorations like bricks and stuff, maybe even molded sculptures. I always thought how cool it would be to make an ice nativity scene for Christmas. I'd freeze LEDs in the ice and have them light up.

Make sure the insulation is intact around the head. Add more to the wall side but make sure the pipe and valve assembly itself isn't insulated. You want the (house) heat to actually warm the valve but try and keep the cold on the outside. Also verify the slope.

I have seen people insulate these trying to be "high efficiency" but all it does is keep the cold around the pipe itself which eventually freezes the valve head.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah for sure, I made sure a good part of the stem is on the hot side.

I think part of the issue may be lack of proper vapor barrier there so there's probably some air movement. I also keep my house cool when I'm not home or sleeping so this may contribute. Basement is kept at about 10c but in those cavities it might get colder. That will be solved once I get it all spray foamed though. I'd have to put temp sensors on all my pipes that are near outside walls especially those ones, just to get an idea of what kind of temps they get.

 

[notposting]

House we bought here in MI was unoccupied last winter. Neither hose bib was actually winterized (house was still heated though). One was in a 3-season room, but nominally out of direct cold, and the other had a styrofoam insulator over it. Neither of them froze and burst, apparently.

I am hesitant to actually shut the inside valves this year, because I think the last time they got turned was when the house was built in the 60's.

 

[notposting]

Regarding heat: yeah, odd discussion for those of us used to natural gas versus electrical prices.

Also, a smart thermostat is pretty sweet. Put in an ecobee when we bought the place this spring. Can quickly and easily fine tune the programming to maximize comfort and savings.

 

[natto fire]

If it's electric heat, then sure they are.

Electric heat is 100% efficient, but more of it is "useful" heat when you're using a localized heat source, vs. blowing it through the entire house.

Forced-air electric furnaces make zero sense to me.

That's true of resistive heating. Most whole house electrics are actually "heat pumps" which use phase change of a refrigerant to exploit latent heat. In many installations, resistive heating coils are added for supplemental heat, as phase change heating decreases in efficiency as the temperature delta gets wider. The compressors for these systems are usually outside, so any waste heat from the compressor doing work is "lost", although it is better when the system is running in A/C mode.

In most cases, phase change is more efficient than resistive heating, but once ambient temperatures get too low, or the condenser/evaporator ices over, they are much less efficient.

 

[NutBucket]

Yeah, heat pumps are more than 100% efficient. Wrap your head around that one.

 

[tortillasoup]

You need to say fiberglass batts, since you can now get blown in fiberglass which works just as well, if not better than blown in cellulose.

No I don't because fiberglass whether in batts or blown in is pure crap. Fiberglass doesn't have thermal inertia like Cellulose has. Fiberglass doesn't work well if there is any air movement nor in temperature extremes. Fiberglass only gives the impression of working comparably to cellulose due to the test conditions they give R values in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdSBRPnFvlM

 

[natto fire]

Yeah, heat pumps are more than 100% efficient. Wrap your head around that one.

The same way phase change can take fire, and make ice. Still limited to applicable laws of thermodyamics.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatpump.html

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah, heat pumps are more than 100% efficient. Wrap your head around that one.

Technically not, they're just moving existing energy from one place to the other.

They're not really that useful unless they are a geothermal system though. When it's 30 below outside you're not going to get much heat out of the heat pump without it having to use resistive elements anyway.

 

[NutBucket]

I know. I'm glad I have gas heat for the few times we need it.