So I am looking for a decent digital camcorder

[Saint Nick]

I'm graduating in May of 2009 and would like to put together a "documentary" of sorts of my senior year for shits and giggles. I want to buy a camcorder that will have the ability to attach a microphone like this to it so I can pick up speech a little better. I don't really want to spend more than $400 or $500 on it. I don't mind buying used. I also prefer that it can connect through firewire because I don't have a device to "record" back to my computer with.

Hopefully that jargon all makes sense -- I don't know much about the digital video camcorder world. Hope you guys can help, thanks!

 

[Saint Nick]

c'mon guys, someone has to have some sort of suggestion.

 

[Saint Nick]

bumperooski.

 

[Kaido]

Canon HV20 + Rode VideoMic. Amazing camera; I have that exact setup. I'd also recommend a fluid-head tripod if you want smooth and steady shots (I have a Velbon).

 

[JS80]

Canon FS100.

 

[twistedlogic]

Originally posted by: Kaido
Canon HV20 + Rode VideoMic. Amazing camera; I have that exact setup. I'd also recommend a fluid-head tripod if you want smooth and steady shots (I have a Velbon).

I second the HV20.

With the introduction of the HV30, you might be able to find one used for 600. Haven't looked into Mics but as Kaido mentions, a nice tripod is a must.

 

[Saint Nick]

I think I'm going to pick up that Canon HV20 at the end of July. Looks real nice with all the features I'm looking for Hope I can find that videomic for a good deal . .

Thanks a lot guys!

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: NightDarker
I think I'm going to pick up that Canon HV20 at the end of July. Looks real nice with all the features I'm looking for Hope I can find that videomic for a good deal . .

Thanks a lot guys!

Good choice! Comp-U-Plus has the VideoMic for $129; most places sell it for $149:

http://www.compuplus.com/i-ROD...ml?sid=9d1b918xh5d6k91

They are legit, I've bought from them multiple times in the past. You can build a boom pole for $15 with this tutorial:

http://www.indymogul.com/episode/imwe_20070727

I'd recommend getting the the dead cat (fuzzy outdoor windscreen) if you're going to be recording outdoors or in windy conditions. Also, see my post here for more info in general on the camera:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=65&threadid=2147163

:thumbsup:

 

[Saint Nick]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: NightDarker
I think I'm going to pick up that Canon HV20 at the end of July. Looks real nice with all the features I'm looking for Hope I can find that videomic for a good deal . .

Thanks a lot guys!

Good choice! Comp-U-Plus has the VideoMic for $129; most places sell it for $149:

http://www.compuplus.com/i-ROD...ml?sid=9d1b918xh5d6k91

They are legit, I've bought from them multiple times in the past. You can build a boom pole for $15 with this tutorial:

http://www.indymogul.com/episode/imwe_20070727

I'd recommend getting the the dead cat (fuzzy outdoor windscreen) if you're going to be recording outdoors or in windy conditions. Also, see my post here for more info in general on the camera:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=65&threadid=2147163

:thumbsup:

So would you reccomend getting the video mic or building the boom with an external mic + fuzzy dead cat?

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: NightDarker
So would you reccomend getting the video mic or building the boom with an external mic + fuzzy dead cat?

Well, you need the VideoMic in order to build the boom...the boom is simply an arm for the VideoMic. The VideoMic comes with the following:

1. Microphone
2. Foam windscreen
3. Camera mount

That's everything you need to mount it onto the top of your camera. The next step up is the Dead Cat, which is a fuzzy windscreen designed for outdoor use. The point of a Dead Cat is to help block outdoor wind noise while capturing vocals and other sounds. If you're going to be filming outdoors, definitely pick one of those up (unless it's a calm day outside, but it's handy to have either way).

The step after that is to build a Boom. A boom is simply an arm to put the VideoMic (or any other mic) on. You can either set it up on a tripod or have someone hold it over the heads of the people you are shooting. For example, the guy in the red shirt in this picture is a boom operator:

http://www.jorenclark.com/images/boomer.jpg

He's holding a microphone over the head of the guy getting filmed, using a mic with a dead cat on a boom pole. The advantage to using a boom pole is that you get better audio - it doesn't pick up motor noise from the MiniDV tape mechanism in the camera and it gets the microphone closer to the person(s) speaking in order to get clearer audio capture. Once you have clear audio capture, you can clean up the sound in post-production and add background noise, a soundtrack, sound effects, and so on.

There are pros and cons to using a Boom. Obviously you get better sound capture because you can get closer to the people talking, however, it also means you have to carry around a boom pole with a mic attached. If you're just running around shooting your friends, you might just want to stick with the VideoMic directly on the camera for convenience - it will still capture excellent audio and won't be a hassle if you guys are just messing around. However, for $15 you can build a nice little boom pole like in that video I linked above, so if it's not a hassle for you to carry around for your documentary project, it will give you better sound.

If you want to take it a step further, you can also get a digital audio recorder. I just picked up a Zoom H2 recorder from eBay using that 25% off deal in Hot Deals. It's basically a digital microphone that records to an SD card and allows you to plug in an external mic, so my boom operator can keep the H2 in a belt case, connected to the audio cable on the boom mic, connected to the mic. Then you just sync the audio to the picture in your editing software by lining up a loud sound like a clap of your hands or shouting "Action!". This might be a bit overkill for what you're trying to accomplish, but I thought I'd show it to you in case you wanted to get more into A/V in the future. If you want a recording sample, let me know and I'll post one. Here's a link:

http://www.samsontech.com/prod...ctpage.cfm?prodID=1916

Also, avoid the Stereo VideoMic. The mono version (just called "VideoMic") sounds MUCH better.

 

[Kaido]

The other key to good filming is a quality tripod (unless you're going for a nausea-inducing film style like the second Bourne movie). Good tripods aren't cheap, but you can find a quality model on a budget. I have a Velbon DV-7000, which B&H Photo sells for $109:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/...Tripod_with_2_Way.html

It's very heavy-duty and stable. Also, it has a fluid head, which allows you to do smooth pans. If you try to use a regular camera tripod, your pans will be very jerky. The fluid head has some dampening fluid which allows you (via a dial) to set how much resistance the head has, so you can do a quick, smooth pan or a long, slow, steady pan. You can improve the smoothness of the pan by using the rubber band trick, which overcomes the natural shake and unstability that your hand has. Here's a thread about that: (a hair scrunchie also works and doesn't rip the hair off your arms)

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=98213

And a video sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2Fm6qMqTw

The other tool that you might find useful is a Steadycam, which gives you a smooth picture if you need to move the camera around a lot than by simply holding it by hand. There is a device called a Poor Man's Steadycam which you can build for $14 (he also sells pre-made kits $39, which is a steal). Here's a link:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/steadycam/

It's not a "real" Steadycam like the film industry uses because it doesn't have a gimbal or other balancing goodies, but it definitely improves the stability of the picture. It takes some practice to get it smooth, but you'll pick it up in no time. Here's a sample of what you can do with the Steadycam:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/steadycam/girl3.mov

In addition, you can add steadying features in post-production to make it completely smooth. I use Final Cut Pro and it has a "SmoothCam" filter that will completely remove shake from a video clip. That combined with a Steadycam (and some practice!) will give you smooth shots just like on TV and in the movies.

 

[Saint Nick]

Awesome info man Thanks a lot! Yeah, I mostly plan on filming my friends goofing off. I am going to get the video mic plus the dead cat. I will add a boom later on when I want to start filming more professional stuff. I have a movie idea I want to take on soon...

 

[gsellis]

A couple of things. B&H has some stuff to use, but make sure it is fit for your mic before you buy it. I was going to recommend Mike Muff, but it looks like they are out of the business.

On tripods, if you want pro quality, you have to pay pro prices. Look for a head that is a fluid head. You will not believe the difference until you use it. Otherwise, you will learn how to spell stiction and know in detail what it means. Not sure about Kaido's Veldon, but if it works for him.... All the Veldon's I have seen have legs that torque easily.

Check out some of the indie sites for tips on how to make your own boom (Kaido's $15 solution). For what you want, a modified mic mount and broom pole might be your answer. Remember to tape the pole (always, always monitor your audio while shooting!!! the meter can lie.)

Oh, the term you were missing is "shotgun". You are looking at a shotgun mic.

The Zoom comes in the H2 and H4 models. The H4 is killer, but I hear the H2 good. The H4 has a cross-over built in and accepts 2 XLR mics in with phantom voltage (later, you can dual mic a scene - but XLR <> mini - which is the VideoMic IIRC). If you do use it, "Action" is too soft. That is what the clapper board is for. You want a sharp spike in the audio so you can sync it in the audio wave view in your editor. A stick and a board/block are perfect.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: NightDarker
Awesome info man Thanks a lot! Yeah, I mostly plan on filming my friends goofing off. I am going to get the video mic plus the dead cat. I will add a boom later on when I want to start filming more professional stuff. I have a movie idea I want to take on soon...

Yeah, that will get you started nicely! If you find that your mic picks up hum or motor noise, there are extension arms available on B&H that move the mic a good 5-6" above the camera.

Like gsellis said, you'll want to monitor your audio. Any cheap pair of headphones or earbuds will work, although I use sealed headphones because it helps block outside sounds so you can only hear what is being recorded. You can use in-ear earbuds (I have Etys for my iPod), but those aren't easy to yank out quickly, which is why I recommend headphones or plain earbuds that just rest in your ears (not the earplug kind).

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: gsellis
A couple of things. B&H has some stuff to use, but make sure it is fit for your mic before you buy it. I was going to recommend Mike Muff, but it looks like they are out of the business.

On tripods, if you want pro quality, you have to pay pro prices. Look for a head that is a fluid head. You will not believe the difference until you use it. Otherwise, you will learn how to spell stiction and know in detail what it means. Not sure about Kaido's Veldon, but if it works for him.... All the Veldon's I have seen have legs that torque easily.

Check out some of the indie sites for tips on how to make your own boom (Kaido's $15 solution). For what you want, a modified mic mount and broom pole might be your answer. Remember to tape the pole (always, always monitor your audio while shooting!!! the meter can lie.)

Oh, the term you were missing is "shotgun". You are looking at a shotgun mic.

The Zoom comes in the H2 and H4 models. The H4 is killer, but I hear the H2 good. The H4 has a cross-over built in and accepts 2 XLR mics in with phantom voltage (later, you can dual mic a scene - but XLR <> mini - which is the VideoMic IIRC). If you do use it, "Action" is too soft. That is what the clapper board is for. You want a sharp spike in the audio so you can sync it in the audio wave view in your editor. A stick and a board/block are perfect.

What do you mean by torque on the legs?

As far as the recorder goes, I wanted a simple digital audio recorder and the H2 fit the bill nicely. It's inexpensive, high-quality, and works directly with my VideoMic. The H4 is awesome too, but I didn't need XLR compatibility or multi-track recording. But if it's in your budget and you'd use it, there's no reason why not to go for it

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: Kaido

What do you mean by torque on the legs?

As far as the recorder goes, I wanted a simple digital audio recorder and the H2 fit the bill nicely. It's inexpensive, high-quality, and works directly with my VideoMic. The H4 is awesome too, but I didn't need XLR compatibility or multi-track recording. But if it's in your budget and you'd use it, there's no reason why not to go for it

Torque is when you pan and you get twist in the legs. It causes the pan to get unsmooth and gives you a little lash in the reverse as you slow your pan. Especially noticable at max extension. Some folks may call it twist.

I originally used earbuds (and still have them, the $50 Sony version). I switched to Senn HDR-280 circumaurals because I was shooting drum corps and the noise was blowing by the buds. I could not get a clean monitor. I was also getting some noise from the audio affecting the 'speaker' in the bud. Drum corps' require a -30dB pad on my A-T 835ST as it over-volts my Beachtek (1V+ vs .9V max in on my DXA-8). My friends rock band does the same when they are setup for outdoor concerts (needed a -50 at their last show - I only had a 10/20/30 ).

 

[Saint Nick]

Guys I'm looking at this one:

http://www.preferredphoto.com/...x?ID=9956803&l=Froogle

Its a refurb, so its only $524. How do you guys feel about that?

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: Kaido

What do you mean by torque on the legs?

As far as the recorder goes, I wanted a simple digital audio recorder and the H2 fit the bill nicely. It's inexpensive, high-quality, and works directly with my VideoMic. The H4 is awesome too, but I didn't need XLR compatibility or multi-track recording. But if it's in your budget and you'd use it, there's no reason why not to go for it

Torque is when you pan and you get twist in the legs. It causes the pan to get unsmooth and gives you a little lash in the reverse as you slow your pan. Especially noticable at max extension. Some folks may call it twist.

I originally used earbuds (and still have them, the $50 Sony version). I switched to Senn HDR-280 circumaurals because I was shooting drum corps and the noise was blowing by the buds. I could not get a clean monitor. I was also getting some noise from the audio affecting the 'speaker' in the bud. Drum corps' require a -30dB pad on my A-T 835ST as it over-volts my Beachtek (1V+ vs .9V max in on my DXA-8). My friends rock band does the same when they are setup for outdoor concerts (needed a -50 at their last show - I only had a 10/20/30 ).

Yup my video cans are 280s as well, love em

 

[Saint Nick]

Kaido, I forgot to ask you:

With that HV20 how are you going back to the PC? Do you go through with A/V cables or are you going through the FireWire interface? The last camcorder I had was an oldie -- one that used SVHS (?) tapes. I had to record it back to the PC using a Dazzle 150.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: NightDarker
Kaido, I forgot to ask you:

With that HV20 how are you going back to the PC? Do you go through with A/V cables or are you going through the FireWire interface? The last camcorder I had was an oldie -- one that used SVHS (?) tapes. I had to record it back to the PC using a Dazzle 150.

Firewire. Forget doing A/V. You are getting about 1/8th of the quality you shot. Firewire gets you packetized MPEG2 1080 (i or p with pulldown). The file size is the same as digital video, which is probably what your system will take it to from the VHS quality you get with A/V cables. No savings and you loss lots. Go Firewire.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: NightDarker
Kaido, I forgot to ask you:

With that HV20 how are you going back to the PC? Do you go through with A/V cables or are you going through the FireWire interface? The last camcorder I had was an oldie -- one that used SVHS (?) tapes. I had to record it back to the PC using a Dazzle 150.

Firewire. Forget doing A/V. You are getting about 1/8th of the quality you shot. Firewire gets you packetized MPEG2 1080 (i or p with pulldown). The file size is the same as digital video, which is probably what your system will take it to from the VHS quality you get with A/V cables. No savings and you loss lots. Go Firewire.

Yup Firewire. 4-pin to 6-pin cable for a Desktop port or 4-pin to 4-pin cable for a Laptop port (unless you have a Mac laptop, which takes a 6-pin cable). I believe you can use the camera as a pass-through for older A/V stuff like VCRs and tape-based camcorders, if you need to transfer some old footage over.

Are you going to be using a PC or a Mac? If PC, XP or Vista?

 

[Saint Nick]

All right... last question.

Where can I get a good UV filter to protect my lens and which one should I get?

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: NightDarker
All right... last question.

Where can I get a good UV filter to protect my lens and which one should I get?

Amazon has em. Tiffin is one of the many good brands.