• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

So hows that Free trade with China again?

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
Amazing that China can put all kinds of restrictions on how US companies can sell in China. I guess this free trade does not seem so free. China is known for putting up barriers to make sure they always get the winning end of the deal.

Trump is right.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/technology/apple-no-longer-immune-to-chinas-scrutiny-of-us-tech-firms.html?_r=0

For years, there has been a limit to the success of American technology companies in China. Capture too much market share or wield too much influence, and Beijing will push back.

Apple has largely been an exception to that trend. Yet the Silicon Valley company is now facing a regulatory push against its services in China that could signal its good relations in the country may be turning.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,716
136
Amazing that China can put all kinds of restrictions on how US companies can sell in China. I guess this free trade does not seem so free. China is known for putting up barriers to make sure they always get the winning end of the deal.

Trump is right.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/technology/apple-no-longer-immune-to-chinas-scrutiny-of-us-tech-firms.html?_r=0

For years, there has been a limit to the success of American technology companies in China. Capture too much market share or wield too much influence, and Beijing will push back.

Apple has largely been an exception to that trend. Yet the Silicon Valley company is now facing a regulatory push against its services in China that could signal its good relations in the country may be turning.
What "free trade" with China are you referring to? The US has free trade agreements with 20 countries. China is not one of them.

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
894
126
China looks to be on a possible bubble. They have so much control over their economy that they are trying to slowly step down, but they have way over invested. The big thing that is saving them is they just have so much cash.

Their housing bubble is WAYYYYYY bigger than the one in the US.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,710
4,381
136
Not directly. But one major goal of the TPP is to use a block of countries as a counter balance to their power and then get China into the TPP.
This. It's like the entire world is slowly but surely being regeared for the interests of the super elite at the expense of everyone else. How they pulled this off under everyone's noses is an impressive achievement.
 
Dec 10, 2005
21,508
3,182
126
Not directly. But one major goal of the TPP is to use a block of countries as a counter balance to their power and then get China into the TPP.
I would have thought the goal of the TPP is to block China's influence in that region of the world by building up an economic block that excludes them.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
This. It's like the entire world is slowly but surely being regeared for the interests of the super elite at the expense of everyone else. How they pulled this off under everyone's noses is an impressive achievement.
Not that impressive really:
1. Has not interfered with our TV reception ...yet.
2. Has not affected directly anyone's credit score ...yet.
3. Has not been politically incorrect... so far.

So most don't care.


.
 
Feb 4, 2009
31,585
11,936
136
I would have thought the goal of the TPP is to block China's influence in that region of the world by building up an economic block that excludes them.
Not really part of the goal is to set a standard of rules that China can live with so there is framework for the future. Which I say is complete BS.
We trade with many countries without trade agreements. Why do we need another trade agreement that's so secretive we still can't read the text or what can be read is worded in such a fashion that a non expert has little chance of understanding it.
Think of anything else in life its rare that the complicated solution is the right solution.
 
Dec 10, 2005
21,508
3,182
126
Not really part of the goal is to set a standard of rules that China can live with so there is framework for the future. Which I say is complete BS.
I see it more as an extension of our foreign policy and less of a simple trade agreement - it's an attempt to keep the countries involved within our sphere of influence.

We trade with many countries without trade agreements. Why do we need another trade agreement that's so secretive we still can't read the text or what can be read is worded in such a fashion that a non expert has little chance of understanding it.
Think of anything else in life its rare that the complicated solution is the right solution.
But we can read the text. It's available online: https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/tpp-full-text

As for negotiating in secret, that's kind of like a "duh" thing. How could we ever successfully negotiate any international agreement if it had to be done in through the court of public opinion? Every special interest would latch on to try and push their own agenda.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
As for negotiating in secret, that's kind of like a "duh" thing. How could we ever successfully negotiate any international agreement if it had to be done in through the court of public opinion? Every special interest would latch on to try and push their own agenda.
Better to let politicians and international corporation lawyers work it out. Because they would not push their own agenda?


.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
As opposed to what alternative?
No matter what product/item in trade one people/nation is going to have an edge. In either innovation/production that they will seek to protect. If I can produce widgets better than you and you produce whatchamacallits better than I. If I place a tariff on your widgets. You place a tariff on my whatchamacallits.

Base the tariff on the value. Each of use can focus on what we do the best. If either makes a break through on producing the others products due to innovation because one spent on research. Why should the one who developed a better way not gain from it?

.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
30,029
10,522
136
No matter what product/item in trade one people/nation is going to have an edge. In either innovation/production that they will seek to protect. If I can produce widgets better than you and you produce whatchamacallits better than I. If I place a tariff on your widgets. You place a tariff on my whatchamacallits.

Base the tariff on the value. Each of use can focus on what we do the best. If either makes a break through on producing the others products due to innovation because one spent on research. Why should the one who developed a better way not gain from it?

.
I'm of the opinion that trade agreements should be used to raise living standards and to protect IP, as well as address currency issues.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
Exactly. The TPP hasn't been signed. So, what Hugo Drax is complaining about is non-free trade.
All these "Free trade" Agreements are supposed to sound good. We let china dump product and no strings attached.

But china gets to pull strings, they make it difficult for Us to export or do business there unless the majority of the chips are on chinas side.

So now China executes an embargo on an American company selling products to the Chinese. Where is are counter-embargo to let China know that if they embargo our products we can do the same.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
All these "Free trade" Agreements are supposed to sound good. We let china dump product and no strings attached.

But china gets to pull strings, they make it difficult for Us to export or do business there unless the majority of the chips are on chinas side.

So now China executes an embargo on an American company selling products to the Chinese. Where is are counter-embargo to let China know that if they embargo our products we can do the same.
This. Where are the WTO complaints? Where are the reciprocal trade restrictions? Where are the tariffs to account for currency manipulation?

Why haven't we revoked MFN?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
462
126
This. It's like the entire world is slowly but surely being regeared for the interests of the super elite at the expense of everyone else. How they pulled this off under everyone's noses is an impressive achievement.
Where both parties are in agreement, everybody see their team doing it so it must be okay.

I see it more as an extension of our foreign policy and less of a simple trade agreement - it's an attempt to keep the countries involved within our sphere of influence.

But we can read the text. It's available online: https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/tpp-full-text

As for negotiating in secret, that's kind of like a "duh" thing. How could we ever successfully negotiate any international agreement if it had to be done in through the court of public opinion? Every special interest would latch on to try and push their own agenda.
lol Luckily that never happens with secret negotiations. Nope, the special interests aren't even allowed into the negotiating rooms. They have to sit out in the lobby. That's why they are called lobbyists, because they have zero influence on these secret negotiations.

In the real world, the special interests are the only ones with any influence whatsoever over the politicians and the only ones who know what is going on as it is going on. Which is why they are always the only ones who DON'T get screwed over from the resulting agreements. Those big concessions that powerful industries want, they get fought for. Joe Sixpack? Screw him, he's just one vote. Long as we tell him we feel his pain after his job leaves the country, we can have the vote and the deal that makes us even wealthier.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
94
86
China protects its interests, Mexico protects its interests, Germany protects its interests. America tries to protect its interests, and all of a sudden we're racist xenophobic assholes.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
12,637
4,055
136
Where both parties are in agreement, everybody see their team doing it so it must be okay.


lol Luckily that never happens with secret negotiations. Nope, the special interests aren't even allowed into the negotiating rooms. They have to sit out in the lobby. That's why they are called lobbyists, because they have zero influence on these secret negotiations.

In the real world, the special interests are the only ones with any influence whatsoever over the politicians and the only ones who know what is going on as it is going on. Which is why they are always the only ones who DON'T get screwed over from the resulting agreements. Those big concessions that powerful industries want, they get fought for. Joe Sixpack? Screw him, he's just one vote. Long as we tell him we feel his pain after his job leaves the country, we can have the vote and the deal that makes us even wealthier.
Well said, sir. :thumbsup:
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY