So, how will spending our way out of recessions end?

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
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You see it all the time and, in the horrible article below, the author is advocating that Germans spend, spend, spend to help the rest of Europe. This would all make sense if the government did scale back during an expansion. But it doesn't. From what I've seen, this is how things go:

Recession:
Increase spending
Cut services
Cut taxes

Expansion:
Increase spending
Cut taxes
-----------------------------------

My question is, when is it a good time to raise taxes? Shouldn't it be during an expansion when the economy can handle it? Also, shouldn't the government be cutting back services during an expansion so as not to crowd out the private sector? If we do these two things, the economy may not grow as fast but it may be sustainable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/opinion/27thu1.html

Germany vs. Europe
Germany’s commitment to the European Union has been central to its postwar rehabilitation and its economic success. For years, Germany played the role in Europe that America so frequently plays globally — the locomotive whose dynamism and demand helps turn around recessions before they deepen into depressions.

Now, at the worst possible moment, Germany is turning to nationalist illusions. Europe’s past economic successes are now viewed as German successes. Europe’s current deep problems are everyone else’s except Germany’s. That is neither realistic nor sustainable. But German politicians and commentators are callously and self-destructively feeding these ideas.

Earlier this year, when Germany was still refusing to participate in a bailout, the country’s largest newspaper by circulation, Bild, suggested Greece should sell the Acropolis to pay off its bond market creditors. (It estimated the monument could bring in $140 billion.) A senior member of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s party suggested auctioning off some of Greece’s Aegean islands. Meanwhile, a Bild poll showed a majority of Germans in favor of expelling Greece from the euro.

After a rough stretch following reunification, Germany took the tough decisions necessary to restore its competitiveness and revive growth. As a result, it is doing far better than the rest of Europe, with a low fiscal deficit and strong export surpluses. But its export-dependent economy would sputter if European consumers — its main customers — could no longer afford to buy its goods. German banks lent billions to Greece and other troubled European countries. If things don’t turn around quickly, those loans may have to be written down.

Germany also has contributed less than its fair share to the global stimulus, preferring to free ride on American and Chinese stimulus spending. And the euro’s underlying problem — the lack of an enforceable common fiscal policy, which allowed Greece and the others to rack up deficits they could not afford — is the responsibility of all the euro’s creators, Germany prominent among them.

Germans have not been eager to hear those less-flattering parts of the story, and their leaders haven’t been eager to tell them. For months, Mrs. Merkel resisted all appeals — by other European leaders and Washington — to, well, be a European leader. When Germany finally agreed to contribute to a bailout fund — under threat of a Continentwide crash — Europe’s economic problems were far worse, and Germany and others had to ante up a lot more cash.

Europe’s most-troubled economies today — Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy — bear plenty of responsibility for this mess. They spent lavishly during the bubble. They failed to reform their rigid and inefficient labor markets and to contain their increasingly uncompetitive wage costs. The rest of Europe, including Germany, should have demanded adjustments earlier, but didn’t.

With devaluation not an option for euro members, Europe’s high-deficit countries have been forced into steep tax increases and deep spending cuts to bring their soaring deficits under control and calm the bond markets. Necessary as they are, these cuts also run a very high risk of plunging the Continent into deep recession this year unless Germany offsets them with aggressive stimulus of its own. We hope Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner will remind German officials of that on his visit to Berlin on Thursday.

Instead of committing to more spending, Germany is now preparing a multiyear program of deep spending cuts. Given its troubled history, we can understand its fear of deficit spending and inflation. But right now more German austerity will likely cripple Europe’s nascent recovery and Germany’s own prosperity. That is another hard truth that Mrs. Merkel needs to tell her party and her country.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
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but when the reductions in govt jobs are softened by the extension of unemployment and subsidies of benefits the 'savings' isn't quite what was planned... and the contraction of spending by laid off govt workers reduces economic activity... and there's no where near enough private sector jobs to absorb these folk already...

so there's still waves of pain to come... this is going to be a long, slow train wreck that is going to have a lot more grief dispersed before things get to the 'new normal'...
 

TwinsenTacquito

Senior member
Apr 1, 2010
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Well the economy is doing badly. So you need to raise taxes and spending so as to put businesses out of business and people out of work. That way.... wait what?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
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Well the economy is doing badly. So you need to raise taxes and spending so as to put businesses out of business and people out of work. That way.... wait what?

Stop being facetious. If we keep lowering taxes, how are we expected to lower our debt? Shouldn't it be a combination of cutting spending and raising taxes?
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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US money supply plunges at 1930s pace as Obama eyes fresh stimulus
The M3 money supply in the United States is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933, despite near zero interest rates and the biggest fiscal blitz in history.

The cure is to start printing more money.
The results? Deflation.
The hope? That it pulls us out of the recession.
The risk? Hyperinflation.

It's never worked before. Hyperinflation has always been the end result. History repeats itself. Those in power in D.C. are convinced they are the people to finally get this right. How repeating the mistakes of predecessors will accomplish that is of course never explained.
 

TwinsenTacquito

Senior member
Apr 1, 2010
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Stop being facetious. If we keep lowering taxes, how are we expected to lower our debt? Shouldn't it be a combination of cutting spending and raising taxes?

No. It should be a lowering of taxes and a cutting of spending. We're spending probably a hundred thousand times as much money as we should be. There's no need to raise taxes.
 

TwinsenTacquito

Senior member
Apr 1, 2010
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US money supply plunges at 1930s pace as Obama eyes fresh stimulus


The cure is to start printing more money.
The results? Deflation.
The hope? That it pulls us out of the recession.
The risk? Hyperinflation.

It's never worked before. Hyperinflation has always been the end result. History repeats itself. Those in power in D.C. are convinced they are the people to finally get this right. How repeating the mistakes of predecessors will accomplish that is of course never explained.

You are a bitch liar. This will work because in the year 2000, fascism will be more mobile thanks to flying cars.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
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No. It should be a lowering of taxes and a cutting of spending. We're spending probably a hundred thousand times as much money as we should be. There's no need to raise taxes.

How are you going to service the debt, let alone pay for it, with tax cuts? Also, what about all these pensions? Worse, with an aging population and low birthrate (among legal americans) where are you going to find the money to pay for increased elderly services?
 
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Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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1.spend in ways that increase productivity and growth. ie education, infrastructure, science.
2.growth increases more than expected bcause step 1 really does work.
3.balance budget by limiting unproductive spending, like war, and setting tax rates that pay for what we spend.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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Why should they do that? They don't lord over these poorly-run countries. I supported the Stability and Growth Pact until France convinced the Germans to have all Europeans ignore it back in 2003 or2004. Now, it has come to bit them in the ass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact

Because they tried to take over the world and exterminate an entire ethnicity, costing millions of lives including genocide.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
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Because they tried to take over the world and exterminate an entire ethnicity, costing millions of lives including genocide.

So Germans living today should suffer for what their predecessors did 7o years ago? You must be in favor of reparations too, right?
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
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Sounds like someone trying to spend their way out of credit card debt by buying more stuff on their credit card.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Meh. Current deficits won't, can't prevent a huge contraction of the economy in the wake of our recent and deliberate bubble and top down looting spree. They're more intended to ease us down the slope, stretch it out, hopefully prevent it from going down as far as it might w/o it.

For the financial elite, the fun is just beginning. They won big on the way up, sold short on the way down, and now stand to benefit enormously from a debt deflation scenario- Cash is King, and they'll be the ones who have it. The rest of the nation, particularly the chumps who thought that a line of credit was just as good as real assets, won't have it nearly so good. It's the natural result of the over-extension of credit and speculation in a truly fundamental commodity- housing, the fattest cow around.

Welcome to the real ownership society, the one where *you* get owned, bigtime. Didn't see it coming? You weren't supposed to...

Where's your enthusiasm, Righties? It's what you wanted, craved, demanded and supported- self regulated banking, cutting red tape for loans, free market global capitalism, trickledown economic goodness, cheap imports- everything you asked for, and a whole lot more...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Germany and USA are not even remotely comparable. They are a top exporter, #1 I think even ahead of China, we are a top importer. They save, we don't. They shut down scamsters in their markets, e.g. derivatives, etc. we welcome it. They have a highly educated workforce. We are idiots with massive drop out rates and with mainly foreigners staffing our science and engineering graduate programs. I could go on but he fact is Germany can afford to bail out their eastern brothers in 1989, could afford to take their DM hit when going Euro, can afford to bail out PIIGS and be no worse for the wear.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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The results are already in; the dollar has hardened, we've seen half a million jobs gained in just the last few months, a 10% upward swing in GDP growth from low to high point since Q4 2008, stabilizing house prices, etc. Wages and jobs will lag as they always do, that isn't anything new. Hyperinflation will continue to be a red herring. The same people will continue to be wrong about the economy, not man up about it here, and then rear their heads again in another 5-10 years when we have another slowdown and/or recession.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
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The results are already in; the dollar has hardened, we've seen half a million jobs gained in just the last few months, a 10% upward swing in GDP growth from low to high point since Q4 2008, stabilizing house prices, etc. Wages and jobs will lag as they always do, that isn't anything new. Hyperinflation will continue to be a red herring. The same people will continue to be wrong about the economy, not man up about it here, and then rear their heads again in another 5-10 years when we have another slowdown and/or recession.


I could make the GDP rocket too by spending tons of money I dont have.

And the only reason the dollar is strengthening is because Europe is even stupider than us.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
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The results are already in; the dollar has hardened, we've seen half a million jobs gained in just the last few months, a 10% upward swing in GDP growth from low to high point since Q4 2008, stabilizing house prices, etc. Wages and jobs will lag as they always do, that isn't anything new. Hyperinflation will continue to be a red herring. The same people will continue to be wrong about the economy, not man up about it here, and then rear their heads again in another 5-10 years when we have another slowdown and/or recession.

and the debt will grow larger...
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
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I could make the GDP rocket too by spending tons of money I dont have.

It's worked well for a few thousand years now.

And the only reason the dollar is strengthening is because Europe is even stupider than us.

This statement quite literally makes no sense. Currency strength is entirely relative.

(FYI, dollar is strong vs. the British pound too).
 

TwinsenTacquito

Senior member
Apr 1, 2010
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How are you going to service the debt, let alone pay for it, with tax cuts? Also, what about all these pensions? Worse, with an aging population and low birthrate (among legal americans) where are you going to find the money to pay for increased elderly services?

By cutting spending to less than 1% of what it is now. There would be no debt, and there wouldn't be any next year either. Or the year after. The problem would be immediately solved. Are you following what I'm saying? Let's say we are spending $100 a year and taxing $90 a year. I say we cut spending to $0.01 a year, and cut taxes to $1 a year until we pay off the debt. Then put taxes right at the $0.01 that we spend.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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How are you going to service the debt, let alone pay for it, with tax cuts? Also, what about all these pensions? Worse, with an aging population and low birthrate (among legal americans) where are you going to find the money to pay for increased elderly services?
You don't raise taxes. You cut spending. But you don't have to actually cut spending, you just need to reduce its growth.

It worked in the 90s and it can work again. It is already working in New Jersey.

Limit the growth of government to 2% per year for the next decade and we'd have a huge surplus.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
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You don't raise taxes. You cut spending. But you don't have to actually cut spending, you just need to reduce its growth.

It worked in the 90s and it can work again. It is already working in New Jersey.

Limit the growth of government to 2% per year for the next decade and we'd have a huge surplus.

That's nice and all but there will be consequences for the broader economy. Nobody wants to admit it but taxes, with all the loopholes and exemptions available, are a lot lower than what people think. Get rid of those and we will be on the road to recovery from too much debt. The only way in which your idea works is if the private sector more than compensates for the loss in government spending and puts more taxes into government coffers, which is a tall order. If government spending makes up a sizeable component of the general economy, this will inflict a much deeper recession, possibly a depression. Unless you guys are happy with years of contraction where the economy settles into a new reality, tax rises will have to be a pivotal component of balancing the budget. Furthermore, we can always lower taxes (and also spending) once we reach a comfortable level.

EDIT: I don't understand this aversion to taxes.
 
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